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Post by groundchuck on Jul 11, 2009 7:49:29 GMT -6
I have seen a lot of high schools shift toward more of a college practice schedule. Forgoing things like static stretching in lines for dynamic warm-ups. Leaving out the old "county fair" conditioning circuits for running half-line plays at a high tempo. Coaches scripting plays and running them rapid fire as opposed to taking a 10-min chunk of time and running the same play over and over and over again.
Now not that either way is right or wrong. I coached with a very successful program (.500 or better since 1973) but they are still conducting practice like they probably did in 1973. Why mess with success right? Can you blame them?
I have also been around successful coaches whose players never static stretch before practice, dynamic flex only; they never do conditioning circuits, and they never run sprints or more than 10-20 yards (resting for 25 seconds and repeating over and over and over again.)
What do you do in your program and why?
Are high school kids totally different "animals" than the college player? Do (for lack of a better term) "college style" practice plans have a place in training high school kids?
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Post by lukethadrifter on Jul 11, 2009 9:04:12 GMT -6
Great question! Out the door as I read and write this, but will be interested to see what the responses are. I'll add my own later. Luke
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Post by kylem56 on Jul 11, 2009 9:29:37 GMT -6
We like using the "college-style" practice plans. 5 minute blocks with no more than 10 minutes spent on a specific area. Keeps everything up-tempo, and to the kids and coaches, it makes practice go by fast. The key though is being organized (i.e. having the equipment needed for the drill already set up before practice) and having your coaches confident in their knowledge of their position to be able to coach on the run. I have also found that by posting the practice plan and giving each drill a name to the players, that it helps transitioning from one period to another go much faster because they will know where to go.
We use dynamic warm ups by position group with their position coaches. 5 minutes long. For example with my OL, my dynamic warm ups usually focus a little more on hip flexability and then from our dynamic warm ups we go right into stance and starts.
During our group sessions and team periods, we try to get as many reps as we can in the alotted amount of time. We will "coach on the run" and make any major corrections during meeting time, or before/after practice. I have found that by developing "buzz words" and simply saying those buzz words to a specific player after a play, they will understand what they did wrong. Earlier on, you have to constantly explain what those "buzz words" mean to the younger kids but once they get it, its a good deal. We film as many group sessions as we can and every team period so we can coach corrections off of film as well.
As for conditioning. We do not do the ol "ok boys on the goaline" and do wind sprints. Any kind of conditioning we do is football specific. It might be pursuit drill one day, kickoff another, etc.
Anyway. I dont know if it is the right way to do it or not but it works for us. My old high school still does things the "old-school" way and I can count on one hand how many games they have lost in the last 5 years so whatever floats your boat I guess.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 11, 2009 9:43:01 GMT -6
As long as:
1) your kids are fundamentally sound 2) your kids are disciplined 3) your kids are not confused 4) your kids are able to execute and are prepared for their opponent 5) your kids are in shape
you can practice any way you want...been done soooo many ways, provided those 5 things hold true i think youll be fine.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jul 11, 2009 10:57:48 GMT -6
I think you need to stick to what you know at first- then if it's not getting the job done make adjustments.
I believe in is a college-style up tempo practice- I've been involved with college-level football in some capacity for the last 13 yrs- beginning as a freshman in college. I know how to operate in this enviornment. To me, this is where I'd start.
I think TDmaker summed it up-
Do what you know how to do- be sure and cover the 5 truths of successful practices.
Remember that the kids won't know but 1 style of practice (your style)- you can't be wrong in their eyes
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Post by wingtol on Jul 11, 2009 11:28:15 GMT -6
We don't practice like a college because we are a small high school. Not to say we do everything "old school" we encoperate new philosophies into our routine, dynamic wamr up and such. As far as our indy and team time, we work on the fundamentals until we have them right. If we are having trouble with our double teams we will work on that till it's right. For our team sessions if we aren't running a play right we will run it till we do. That's just our approach and the way we like to do things. Resource wise filming and watching every practice isn't viable, we do it during camp and when we can during the season but it isn't an every day occurrence (we are working on making it that way hopefully soon). Have to agree that as long as those 5 things mentioned above are being covered then do it however you want! That's the beauty of the game, 500 different ways to do one thing.
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Post by coache67 on Jul 11, 2009 14:38:08 GMT -6
We are a "small" high school and practice "like a college."
I personally believe that it comes down to what you know. Most of my hs coaches were former hs coaches and they did what they knew-and they were pretty good practices bc we (the players) didn't know any better. By the time I graduated our coaches formed a great relationship with the local college coaches (we have two DI schools within 15 miles and a ton of smaller schools in the area) and they got that much better. On my staff I have 3 former DI players, a D3 player, one guy who could have played in college if not for an unfortunate injury and a former collegiate baseball player. Us DI guys are less than 10-15 years removed from the game and have a good relationship with the same schools that my coaches did in HS. We have adopted the NCAA format for two a days and it has worked really, really well for us.
Bottom line, its all about positive reps; rarely do we waste time rerunning the same play 6-7 times to make sure its perfect-we correct what needs to be done and move on. Also we have found that our players legs are fresher than those of our opponents - maybe its just self fulfilling prophesy but other coaches have commented on this as well.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 11, 2009 15:01:22 GMT -6
Can you explain the NCAA practice guidelines for all of us?
How have you adapted it to high school?
How do you and your staff plan using this format?
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Post by jgordon1 on Jul 11, 2009 16:17:00 GMT -6
As long as: 1) your kids are fundamentally sound 2) your kids are disciplined 3) your kids are not confused 4) your kids are able to execute and are prepared for their opponent 5) your kids are in shape you can practice any way you want...been done soooo many ways, provided those 5 things hold true i think youll be fine. Great post TD..I would also add that we need to build teamwork, confidence, comraderie (sp) etc. my college coach used to call them intangibles
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Post by coachbdud on Jul 11, 2009 18:31:05 GMT -6
beginning of practice we dynamic followed by a short static stretching period... In reality you do need both, i have learned our warm up routine from 2 former S&C coaches from a US olympic team. Its what we use and it has cut our warm up time in half and the results are much better. Didnt have one pulled hammy or groin last season.
the rest of the practice is somewhere in between, organized yes, but not to the level of some of the other posts
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Post by powerdog on Jul 12, 2009 8:10:15 GMT -6
We are a "small" high school and practice "like a college." I personally believe that it comes down to what you know. Most of my hs coaches were former hs coaches and they did what they knew-and they were pretty good practices bc we (the players) didn't know any better. By the time I graduated our coaches formed a great relationship with the local college coaches (we have two DI schools within 15 miles and a ton of smaller schools in the area) and they got that much better. On my staff I have 3 former DI players, a D3 player, one guy who could have played in college if not for an unfortunate injury and a former collegiate baseball player. Us DI guys are less than 10-15 years removed from the game and have a good relationship with the same schools that my coaches did in HS. We have adopted the NCAA format for two a days and it has worked really, really well for us. Bottom line, its all about positive reps; rarely do we waste time rerunning the same play 6-7 times to make sure its perfect-we correct what needs to be done and move on. Also we have found that our players legs are fresher than those of our opponents - maybe its just self fulfilling prophesy but other coaches have commented on this as well. what is the NCAA format of 2-a-days?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 12, 2009 8:25:34 GMT -6
Heres what I want to know...how many of you follow a real RACE HORSE kind of practice, yknow, runnking everywhere uptempo, lots of pressure to get it all in and move to the next thing....vs how many of you prefer a nice steady pace where teaching in great detail may take some time and you arent in any rush?
I used to do 1.5-2 hour practices and was flying all over the field. now i schedule 3 hour practices and really take my time, mostly because my coaching staff is just learning how i want things done. I like the slower, steady pace and feel like the kids absorb things better because they are more relaxed. Of course they are out there longer which is a real negative too.
I got my practice philosophy from Don Markham who said hes built most of his 300 wins using long practices with a slow steady pace, defense first, then lots of team offense.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jul 12, 2009 9:33:02 GMT -6
our practices are about 2 3/4 -3 hrs long. we teach sow but when we do team we try to go fast....on defense we can only go so fast because we use the card system to run plays.... what I will do is sometimes give the defensivecall at the last second to "increase" the tempo
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Jul 12, 2009 9:44:09 GMT -6
A reason I prefer fast-paced practices is it puts the kids in situations where they need to think fast-on the run, and if they screw up it doesn't cost us a game...we're not just practicing schemes and fundamentals- we're tempering ourselves to work at a game pace and vs. worst-case scenarios.
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Post by groundchuck on Jul 12, 2009 12:42:38 GMT -6
When you are installing new things you have to go slower. Think about teaching an elementary kid times tables. Eventually we push it until you get to the point where it is rote and automatic. Now is when you can go race horse.
Can 9th grade go race horse? They will be slower, they may not pick it up as fast. Varsity? Depends on prior knowledge? How much of thier prior knowledge of the game do they have.
So a good coaching would dictate you feel it out. Maybe quickly, but you feel it out. What good is race horse if all the reps are crap? What good is a 3-hour practice if you can do it in 90 minutes?
I guess where we really try and apply the fast paced philosophy is by making sure kids are not standing around waiting in line for reps. Take OL indi for example. With one full time coach and one volunteer we split the kids. Sometimes another volunteer is down there too. Now three groups are doing the same drill and it is rapid fire. So varsity group goes, and then while they are setting up again the sophs go, and then the 9th grade. Then back to the varsity and so goes the cycle. The OL coach can focus on all three groups but the down time is minimized. I think that is key with highschool kids.
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Post by coache67 on Jul 12, 2009 17:17:29 GMT -6
In Ohio this year we have three weeks of preseason football. Our schedule will look like this
M - T - W - Th - F all no contact, progress from helmets only to full gear and will be traditional double sessions. We try to limit our practices to 2 hrs but we'll probably go 2.5 those days.
The following week we will start contact but we will be Double Monday, Single Tuesday, Double Wed, Single Th, Double Fr, Scrimmage Sat. The following week will be the same as the second.
I think it was five years ago the NCAA mandated that all doubles be followed by a single for health concerns and heat exhaustion of the players.
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Post by coache67 on Jul 12, 2009 17:18:53 GMT -6
You guys who have long practices, 3hrs +, do you find that your players are less focused as the day goes on. Aren't there some studies out there that anything over a certain time period is counter productive?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 12, 2009 17:23:22 GMT -6
Its football, not English Lit.
Add to that the fact that a 3 hour practice isnt practice of just one "subject"- its got fundies, conditioning, offense, defense, indy, group, team...
We cover alot and as the year goes on we know we can back off when we feel the kids get it.
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Post by kylem56 on Jul 12, 2009 17:37:44 GMT -6
You guys who have long practices, 3hrs +, do you find that your players are less focused as the day goes on. Aren't there some studies out there that anything over a certain time period is counter productive? When I was in HS, our practices were 3hours and we alternated offense and defense. I can tell you that by hour #2 that people were starting to mentally-check out. We were very good (2 state semi appearences losing by a total of 3) but looking back on it now as a coach. So many things could have been done more efficiently. The number 1 thing being that after every play, you have position coaches taking too much time to correct their players on techniue.
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Post by jhanawa on Jul 12, 2009 22:22:19 GMT -6
I think a lot of how much kids can learn, and how quickly, is based directly on their interest level and not the practice time involved. Really, nothing matters if they aren't interested....they'll nod, say yes sir, go through the motions, but if they aren't interested, is a losing battle.....Now, If they are interested, they can learn everything you want them to know about the game of football within a short period of time. I guess my analogy would be, how long does it take the average kid to completely master and memorize every level of a video game? Why is it that they can remember every play on Madden or NCCA 2009 but forget the HS team plays? What is triggering their learning while playing the video game? Interest, excitement, visual cues, sound, physical feedback, competitive nature? How do you incorporate these learning stimuli into your teaching football? IMO keeping it up tempo, fun, competitive and exciting is a good way to keep their interest.....whether its for 1.5 hours or 2.5, if they are interested the time flies by and they don't notice it....
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 13, 2009 4:40:43 GMT -6
We do 3 hour open gyms in the summer and the kids are learning the whole time. Now, its voluntary so not every kid shows up, but those that do, wow are they ever way ahead.
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Post by PIGSKIN11 on Jul 13, 2009 12:36:08 GMT -6
We recently adopted the open field philosophy for football... Whenever we cannot formally use footballs, I am going to give them a script and go sit down... they will run a ton of plays and learn...
Hoops does it and so do we now - love the concept...
Playing any football is better than none at all...
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