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Post by otowncoach on Jun 5, 2009 17:05:57 GMT -6
We are experimenting with wide 5 foot splits with our OL. What do defenses try to do to counteract it? What gives you fits? Would love any advice you can provide.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jun 5, 2009 19:08:14 GMT -6
might send two through a single gap
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Post by kylem56 on Jun 5, 2009 20:30:59 GMT -6
5 foot splits is pretty damn big. Are you an option team ? Mizzou style zone ? Unless you have some stud OL, I would line up DL in the gap and just shoot if you had that big of splits
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Post by 44dlcoach on Jun 5, 2009 21:07:42 GMT -6
We used 3-4 foot splits last year with mixed results. It really helped our pass pro and some of our running game, but any plays where we had a playside double team (counter, power, etc.) we just couldn't get hip to hip on our double teams on time and create movement at the point of attack.
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Post by coachweigelt on Jun 6, 2009 0:56:29 GMT -6
We used 3-4 foot splits last year with mixed results. It really helped our pass pro and some of our running game, but any plays where we had a playside double team (counter, power, etc.) we just couldn't get hip to hip on our double teams on time and create movement at the point of attack. Doubleteaming is hard if you have wide splits, thats why we got away from it. We try to Zonescheme every runplay even if it is a blast or draw, that way your "Gap Defender" never knows from which side he has contact. We found that they get unsure after a while (since they are legal to cutblocks - at least under NCAA) because they are thinking to much where the contact might come from... We never had problems with those "Gap Defenders" mainly because we are a big screen team. I have to say HB Middle Screen would be the best here, but we never got that to work (our HB is too *censored* small) @ Otowncoach: You still have my trade DVD's? If yes check the mizzou tape on short passing! |
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Post by coachinghopeful on Jun 6, 2009 1:29:28 GMT -6
I know there's an answer in there somewhere, but when teams run these big splits I just don't understand what's to stop a defense from putting one or two quick SS types in the A or B gaps and shooting on you all day long, while everyone else plays screens and running plays. All it takes is one player to get free and your pass protection is wrecked.
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Post by coachweigelt on Jun 6, 2009 5:19:09 GMT -6
I know there's an answer in there somewhere, but when teams run these big splits I just don't understand what's to stop a defense from putting one or two quick SS types in the A or B gaps and shooting on you all day long, while everyone else plays screens and running plays. All it takes is one player to get free and your pass protection is wrecked. Happend to Mizzou when they played Oklahoma?? (not sure) and they killed them with Quick Screens and jetsweeps... I'm happy we have no team doing that to us ATM - They are all so frustrated with our passing attack ;D |
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Post by chuge325 on Jun 6, 2009 6:33:42 GMT -6
We are a wide split, spread, no huddle offense. I think the first thing to be sure of is - do wide splits fit your package? I don't think you can effectively run a power - double team run first scheme from wide splits. I think that you wide split to set up the pass pro first and then you design the run to fit into what you can do. We have found that zone read / speed option is 85% of our effective run game. We chose wide splits 3-4' A gap 5-7' B gap - because we want to force the defense to declare, and then take advantage.
So once you set your offense how do you deal with the defense's tricks?
First, I would beg them to place two SS types in the a gaps, and cover my C and G's. If you don't cover the G's we'll chip the gap and run b gap to outside and the defense has given up two defenders. So look at the numbers - if you put 2 in the A gap to fire, and have 2 five tech tackles and cover the nose you have five lineman - and I can at least chip and run away from you middle. Since you can really only have 6 in the box vs. our spread that means you have one LB - which B gap is he trying to defend vs. the zone read? This is an example - it is hard for the D to committ enough "shooters" to the gaps when the offense has a read based running game, an audible system, and an effective quick stretch passing game. Of course, you still have to execute!
We have made one odd - I think - adjustment to the zone read this spring. Because of the wide splits, our read side tackle is pass setting and creating a wall for the QB to run inside around the B gap. This sets the QB up to read the B gap defender. We are working through this in the spring and summer - a 4i tech kills this - but really opens up the speed option and shovel pass in an automatic audible look. I can't wait to see it live in the fall. Any thoughts?
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Post by coachweigelt on Jun 7, 2009 4:03:41 GMT -6
when there is a 4i tech (which I#m assuming they do because you have a TE) it is easy for the OT to wrap this player to the inside (as you said speed option.
If there is a "B Gap hole" we like to run QB power to that side (for exampe Right B gap):
Doubles R / 20 SM / Fake 28 Jet / 4 Power
It is a fake jet to the same side and a lead with the RB to the B Gap.
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Post by groundchuck on Jun 7, 2009 6:59:37 GMT -6
We were an option based team last year on offense and used 3' splits as our base. A stretch call brought them out as wide as 5'.
Worked good for option.
Terrible for pass pro.
By the last part of the season we got smart enough to cut them down to 2'-3' and that helped.
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Post by powerdog on Jun 7, 2009 9:27:36 GMT -6
have used wide splits for 11 years 3 foot center to guard and 5 foot guard to tackle.
when we run with a TE we cut it to 2-3-3.
key is we are 100% 2 point stance so our lineman can move, mostly guard before we get out cadence. we adjust and teach rules
cut the shade and split the 3.
old matsakis sting and shoot.
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go42
Sophomore Member
Posts: 147
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Post by go42 on Jun 7, 2009 20:28:19 GMT -6
We have played a team from our conference who tried the wide splits for their option game. The best advice I can give is to put your quickest kids on the DL with alot LB blitzes/stunts/fires. More often than not those quick kids are going to cause problems for the OL, especially if the OL is worried about both blitz pickup and the quick SOB in front of him.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Jun 9, 2009 2:25:36 GMT -6
We are a wide split, spread, no huddle offense. I think the first thing to be sure of is - do wide splits fit your package? I don't think you can effectively run a power - double team run first scheme from wide splits. I think that you wide split to set up the pass pro first and then you design the run to fit into what you can do. The wide splits, AFAIK, actually originated with running teams. Some single wing teams, the old Giants' "A" Formation, and especially the old school split back veer and wishbone teams loved wide splits to open up running lanes and put DL in a bind. They'd have the linemen line up 3'-5' or more and as far back off the ball as possible to help them get into body position. A good example of a coach who does this today is Tony DeMeo, who has his OL play around with wide splits a lot, then he attacks the bubbles that open up as the DL decides just how far from C they're willing to follow the linemen who are on them. For example, a 3 tech who is 5' away from the ball at the snap has already taken himself out of midline option or any play going away from him, and if that 3 tech (or his DC) becomes aware of what's being done to him and lines up in a 2 or 2i, there's suddenly a much better angle for the offense on ISV/OSV. Plus, wide splits eliminate the possibility of a pair of big DL (say, a good 3 tech and 1 tech in the 5-2 Eagle/4-3 Under) to squeeze and clog an "unmanned" gap by knocking the backsides of the two adjacent OL into it. On the QB's end, spreading out the front gives him clearer reads and a little more time get the ball where it needs to go. I still don't know if I could ever get 100% comfortable with these wide splits, though. I know they can work very well for some coaches, but they also put extra pressure on the OL to make the right first step. If you're facing a team with superior athletes who can jam your WRs at the line and beat your OL with quickness, you'd better have one good screen game or you're toast. If your OL aren't quick or agile enough to block in space at the snap when they have a good idea of their footwork before the snap, how are they going to block running LBs/DBs/DEs on the screen after it? How do you make your screens work when a defense knows that only 1 or 2 super quick guys need to rush up field to generate pressure and everyone else watches for the screens, draws, and traps? I guess this is one of those things I just don't understand, because I know it works on grass for lots of people, but unless you've got some real stud WRs out there I'd play Cover 2 man (or maybe 2 Level Defense-style Cov 1) with only 1 or 2 true DL on the field, stack the rest of my box with disciplined LB types, and put my quickest, most explosive player in a 2 point stance to chase the QB through the A gap of his choice. If my CBs and S are taking away your quick game underneath and over the top and I have 1 stud athlete chasing the football with abandon in your backfield, that still leaves me a minimum of 4 other guys in the box whose only real job is to bust up screens and stuff the running game you don't want to rely on. I like my odds there. |
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Post by coach4life on Jun 9, 2009 10:05:54 GMT -6
chuge325 & coachinghopeful:
Interesting chess. Chuge, how would you handle CHF's strategy?
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Post by coachsky on Jun 9, 2009 10:36:54 GMT -6
I am a little outta place in that I coach the defensive side of the ball. But I know what we do on offense and why.
We are a spread, no huddle, fast paced, Missouri (Christensen) prototype. We use really wide splits and zone block a lot of stuff.
However, the core of some of our offensive staff are savvy o'l Wing-t guys. So they teach our lineman to change and alter splits depending on the play. It's a beautiful thing.
I think that teams would figure it out, but they don't. Our Oline coach can watch film and tell you what play is coming by the alignment of his group.
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Post by chuge325 on Jun 10, 2009 8:18:01 GMT -6
CHF -
You are very insightful in your initial description - I am an old wing coach and played for a single wing coach in HS years ago. The basis of the spread to run split game comes form the old single wing set ups, and we have always had a component in there. And I think you have hit on the key to the wide split theory - first steps. We drill first steps, mirror and mirror/punch every day. In fact, part of the premise is that if my lineman can keep the DL form going somewhere, our QB can throw and our back can find the gap in the 5' splits. We generally are not good enough up front to blow anyone away, but we can punch and dance, cut and move!
Coach4life -
The chess game goes on forever. I would say that if we took the premise that the D has better athletes who can cover all the wideouts, and stud DL who can break down blockers easily "If you're facing a team with superior athletes who can jam your WRs at the line and beat your OL with quickness" then you are in for a long day with any offense. The "jimmies and joes" still play the game. And I have been on both sides of that - and often there is no answer other than a beer with your wife as the highlights play on the late local news.
However,in our league, we all have some good players and some "fillers" what this allows the offense to do is to try to create space and one on one match ups in that space where we have the upper hand. Kind of like a pick in basketball. Our back is one of our best "space" players, and he becomes the hot read every time we get an A,B,or C gap blitz. If the D is coming outside theC gap rush lane, it gives us time. I don't think that an offense, given roughly equal talent, can destroy a sound defense by scheme. I think that a great offensive scheme, maximizes the offense's ability to create space for it's athletes while limiting the defense's ability to put multiple players into that space. The wide splits, as a part of the total scheme, helps us by forcing a declaration on the part of the defense as to where they are trying to control, and the no huddle approach allows us to place our better players into a space with less defensive interference.
To answer the question directly after all this theory, my first attack would be speed option, zone read option, and speed pass (look like the option). If the D has two A gap studs, we can't rally run anything midline, so the reads and options will force the backers to prove their discipline. The same with speed pass for the man covering the slots. If we break down their discipline and get them chasing what if's, the spaces open up. Also, Jailbreak screen is a great spot play when we have a difficult time controlling A gap studs on the rush. But the key to attacking such a stout D for us would be to break down their reads with movement and read stress, then go to quick pass hits that allow us to take advantage of the space in their hesitation. No one is as fast if the reads are harder. We want to create a situation where the D is blitzing to add space in the second level. If we can get that done in the 1st half, the game tends to blow open later.
Just a thought
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