63razor
Sophomore Member
Posts: 218
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Post by 63razor on Apr 5, 2009 13:55:13 GMT -6
after being on this site for over a year my progression has been: Let me tell you what I know, Well I thought I knew, I know what I don't know, I gotta spend more time so I that I have a chance to know...that and shut up and listen to those who do know and ask questions when its appropriate...then there is some progress
I agree 100% - we are either getting better or worse every minute
Brophy I believe you hit the point square - I am picking up what you're putting down. I remember the first really GOOD DC I worked with and would still be if he hadn't retired - HE KNEW EVERY SCENARIO IN THE BOOK not just about his Defense but the 4-3 and 50.
Great thread
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Post by aapocistan on Apr 6, 2009 3:14:30 GMT -6
I think everyone agrees that our instinctive reactions will get better by watching games. My question though is which method of watching a game, live from the sidelines or on film, improves our "instinctive knowledge" the most/fastest. I think you can make a case for watching live games because it best resembles the situation in which we want to apply our knowledge. But when watching film you will probably have a better view of the entire field and thus have the ability to put every small piece in a broader perspective.
Just putting questions out there to keep this great discussion going.
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wwol
Freshmen Member
Posts: 90
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Post by wwol on Apr 6, 2009 5:21:16 GMT -6
The more football you watch the better you are at watching football
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Post by brophy on Apr 6, 2009 7:19:09 GMT -6
I would agree with DCOHIO [great description; "LOOKING" vs "SEEING"] I would also opine about Wide/Tight shots - game broadcasts really only give you 1/3 of the game and views from the sideline (depending on the pitch of the field) can be almost worthless (IMO). As far as "seeing the totality of the game" I would make the case for the pressbox view (live) to take in the alignments, and see / write the patterns in our head. So, when we are pressed into 'duty' in a game, we can peek at this; and automatically piece it together and KNOW (with a certainty) that by rights of how "it all fits together", that this will be the total picture;
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Post by coach4life on Apr 6, 2009 22:14:06 GMT -6
Run the Bubble up top, it's 6!!! ;D
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Post by dubber on Apr 7, 2009 8:54:55 GMT -6
Run the Bubble up top, it's 6!!! ;D Based on my ID, that Secondary's stance looks like a pattern reading MOFO coverage. The coverage I HATE the most.
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Post by brophy on Apr 7, 2009 10:16:06 GMT -6
speed up the logic algorithm to diagnose what is going to happen on a given down by what you are presented. As we process through the image, we kind of already are piecing the rest of the picture together.....eliminating alignments that would be incongruent, giving us a defaulted picture (alignment ) which defines the likely assignments of those players. Which would probably explain why so many more defenses (NFL in particular) are living in some variation of 1/4,1/4, 1/2. This process goes beyond just defenses, though, and can be as easily used to recognize offense (alignment leverage, etc) probability/advantage.
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Post by indian1 on Apr 7, 2009 19:34:25 GMT -6
Brophy, Great thread.
I discuss this concept with my staff a lot. I always tell them that with film reps, practice reps and game reps they will begin to see a wider and wider view of what is happening. Our job is to understand what should happen, see what did happen, diagnose it as good, bad or ugly and make the necessary corrections/ adjustments.
This can be a tough sell for the rah rah guys or guys who consider themselves "old school" who think that football is just a "who has bigger balls" contest.
These guys want to say "I put my stud at Mike LB and he is going to make stops".
I want my staff to be able to tell me who should make the tackle based on the players' alignment and assignment vs. any play out of any formation. The fact is no matter how good our stud is on defense there are going to be times when its the worst guy on the field's job to make the tackle.
I'm learning that there are thousands of variables at work during a football game. As coaches we need to get a certain number of those variables working in our favor to produce a win. No one knows just how many variables that is and the number can change every game, so we must constantly try to get more of those variables in our favor and hope that its enough.
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Post by coach4life on Apr 7, 2009 22:35:09 GMT -6
Run the Bubble up top, it's 6!!! ;D Based on my ID, that Secondary's stance looks like a pattern reading MOFO coverage. The coverage I HATE the most. Dubber I was joking when I wrote that but I read what you said, I thought what?!? and took another good look. At first glance it looks to me like a sloppy C4 (4 shell, Corner DEL looking like zone). Thinking about it a little longer got me thinking... Are you saying they're setting up for a concept/pattern read ala Nick Saban? That guy in the 40 closest to the LOS is tilted to the outside, he's got a bigger guy stacked over him so he can just take off at the snap outside to chase the bubble, the quick shot to the slot or act as the force player on an outside run, the guy over the top of him (who is probably the true ILB given his apparent size) can just hammer it downhill and fill inside. If it is C4 and I'm the DC I've got my flat player on the fly, my middle player in position to step up to fill on the inside run before zoning it under and I'm solid. Putting the OC hat back on, if I decipher that, now what do I run? Don't know if that's what the D had in mind (it'd help to know the D&D) but it gets the mind a hummin'; admittedly I'm probably over thinking it now. if you set up a shell like that to bait the offense into what you want that could be a huge advantage. That ain't right, we (meaning the offense) are supposed to dictate to them as to where they should line up! With a week for the D to study film and the ability to read the concept/pattern you could really play some chess with the O. Is that what you meant or where you on a different thought? Brophy I'm sure you've got plenty of other things to do but these kind of examples would make a fascinating study - show a piece of the alignment, maybe give some D&D info and we have to hash it out. Fascinating stuff....
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Apr 8, 2009 4:16:59 GMT -6
You can be a guitar virtuoso, but if you do not understand chord changes or keys ...or key changes and chords, for that matter... ;D ;D
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Post by brophy on Apr 8, 2009 6:15:32 GMT -6
we typically talk a lot about how to game plan or organize the off-season schemes in terms of thinking like an economist.....gather a large body of data and review it with meticulous analysis, then come to some conclusion. We're talking about developing thought-in-action, an immediacy of perception, a heuristic approach at handling the course of a game. This is not a linear, step-by-step combining of cues - we are allowing the mind to act as a magnet, pulling in cues from all directions.
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Post by coach4life on Apr 8, 2009 8:45:30 GMT -6
we typically talk a lot about how to game plan or organize the off-season schemes in terms of thinking like an economist.....gather a large body of data and review it with meticulous analysis, then come to some conclusion. We're talking about developing thought-in-action, an immediacy of perception, a heuristic approach at handling the course of a game. This is not a linear, step-by-step combining of cues - we are allowing the mind to act as a magnet, pulling in cues from all directions. To your point, Dubber set the light bulb off for me. At first glance I saw one thing, the obvious "Well anybody that knows what they are doing would see that" stuff. When he said I see them setting up for a pattern recognition MOFO coverage it made me go back and look again. Now I don't know if I got it right (really doesn't matter for the lesson here) but when I looked again I saw stuff I hadn't seen before. With just a little more attention to all the clues that were there a whole new picture of what could be going on emerged, and it didn't take long. The lesson for me is that the next time I see a snapshot like that (either in a picture or on the field) I need to identify what is immediate and then take it another level deeper by asking what is it they are trying to do; as you said, "pulling in cues from all directions". Good lesson!
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Post by spreadattack on Apr 8, 2009 9:00:50 GMT -6
coach4life makes a good point. If you want to train your brain to do what brophy is talking about, you have to really think when you watch, not just mindlessly absorb. Difference between hitting the weights hard in the weightroom or just prancing around -- just time spent doing whatever in the gym isn't good enough.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 8, 2009 10:12:56 GMT -6
Completely disagree. ID is definately more important. IQ helps you ID better, but I will take a football coach who made a 18 on the ACT over a Math professor who made a 33 on the ACT who never coached or played football to coach my football team everytime. Now, if the Math professor had just as much football experience as the football coach (playing, coaching, film study, books read, clinics, etc.), then sure the Math professor will probably recongnize things a little quicker. Or maybe he can have a little less experience and can ID quicker because of his higher IQ. But experience and hard work are still the most important aspects. Do you want your heart surgeon fixing your car or your mechanic? I have a feeling that the heart surgeon has a higher IQ.
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Post by brophy on Apr 8, 2009 10:44:52 GMT -6
This 'subject' may be confusing and may be phrased incorrectly. Be careful not to get lost on minutiae or semantics. It doesn't take a superior intellect to be a physician, just focus and the ability to reference a diagnosis (based on symptoms) to the underlying problem. The ability to recall trends and apply a solution. That isn't dismissing the intellect (strawman), simply illustrating that the superior intellect isn't what quantifies a superior physician. Again, all we're discussing is nuturing the pattern recognition that allows us to use the knowledge that we may have. That being said, that pattern recognition is what actually frames our quest for knowledge --- learning with a purpose, if you understand the totality, you will seek answers that address the global answers and not just seek out micro/macro applications. In the perfect environment, they feed one another. Whereas, just picking one position or one side of the ball and finding a fixation point, drives us to stagnant growth, and fighting battles against 'symptoms'. Whereas, seeing the relationship of perimeter route running impacting the inside run game, the relationship of receiver splits on coverage shell, that impacts the alignment of the DT....we look for answers against the entire picture Being able to assess the situation and apply a "thinking-on-your-feet" response (that actually addresses the problem, and not just the symptom), to avoid us from shooting from the hip or the dial-a-blitz approach.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Apr 8, 2009 11:36:53 GMT -6
One thing that has helped me to recognize patterns is to not look at the ball when watching college football. As an o.c. I actually find myself looking more at the defense than the offense, regardless of who has the ball. Obviously, your vantage point is limited on television due to focusing on the football/qb/rb but I love the split-second recognition of a particular front or stunt or coverage and think "what would I have done" given the scenario. It's both humbling and encouraging when you get to view the replay and see how on or off you were. Sometimes, I find my friends telling me to pipe down as I call run or pass before the snap after a quick identification of "the box" or coverage. Come to think of it, I have been getting less invites to watch games...
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 8, 2009 19:43:08 GMT -6
Broph
Great Topic Excellent responses, fellas...
I'd like to chime in by saying that I agree that pattern recognition/identification trumps IQ when it comes to success in our game, but-
research has shown that there is a direct correlation to a person's ability to recognize/organize/recall chunks of information [including words, patterns and algorithms] and their IQ- the greater the IQ, the more info the can retain and process...
SO therefore, a coach is limited in the amount of information that they can learn/use based on their IQ.
IMO to truly become proficient in this game one must have the capabilities upstairs as well as immerse themselves in the norms of the game until recognition becomes second nature and they can focus on the intracasies.
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benrt1
Freshmen Member
"I'm your Huckleberry".
Posts: 56
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Post by benrt1 on Apr 8, 2009 19:45:20 GMT -6
Brophy, The docs working next to me in our ER are picking up their jaws! Great topic!
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