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Post by brophy on Apr 3, 2009 6:57:43 GMT -6
brophyfootball.blogspot.com/2009/04/id-vs-iq-proper-application-of-game.htmlID vs IQ: Proper Application of the Game The game of football, likely more than any other sport, involves a degree of strategy that may seem unattainable without the superiority of dominant athletes or other ancillary aesthetics. Chess masters do not do well because they have superior IQs. They do well because they have mastered the domain of chess. This is simply because they know the facts and relationships between the pieces through an engagement with it. When you don't know the facts of football, or you have wide gaps in your knowledge, you can't enter that domain and know how it all fits together. The first step in moving towards a mastery of the 100 yard swath, requires you to have access to the facts. The "facts" for all intents and purposes, are those elements that never change, that remain constant to essentially 'set the board'. Those facts would be a) formation b) coverage c) fits/seams/voids, and through these tenets we can build our logic-string outward. The second thing is, you have to have engaged in it so much, that it enters the level of your 'automatic' processes. In so that it comes out of you naturally. Many times this never matures because, for whatever reason, we remain retarded by emotion(rah-rah), familiarity (comfort), pride(title-seeking), or our perspective becomes so focussed (position-centric) that we lose sight of what is established around us. The key to accellerating our maturity and growth in commanding the field requires us to challenge ourselves constantly (using logic, not emotion), and engage ourselves with the entire 22-man concert. The game can be so large and looming, filled with many variables, which is why it is required to take the Occam's razor to our beliefs and zoom-out to see the 10,000 foot perspective. further reading; www.tc.umn.edu/~athe0007/BNEsig/papers/NeuroscientificBasisOfChess.pdf
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Post by Olineiq on Apr 3, 2009 7:09:10 GMT -6
Great stuff! This is why most coaches should coach junior high ball to get this global prespective. This is also why it is important not only to stay on top of not only your scheme on your side of the ball but go to clinics and listen to the other side of the ball meetings to learn what is going to be comming up against you.
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Post by phantom on Apr 3, 2009 8:17:49 GMT -6
brophyfootball.blogspot? Holy chit that's scary.
I suck at chess. My son kills me every time that we play and that's only partly because he's a lot smarter than I am.
The big reason is that I don't care if I win a chess game. I don't do puzzles for the same reason- I don't care.
Football? I care a lot.
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Post by spreadattack on Apr 3, 2009 8:40:33 GMT -6
I went ahead and put my response directly on the blog
good stuff broph, just speculative thoughts from me
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Post by brophy on Apr 3, 2009 9:28:11 GMT -6
just for clarification, this really isn't ABOUT chess, just a neurological study on chess players about WHY they are effective (pattern recognition). you're running strong zone - WLB makes the tackle, what went wrong?
defense lines up with a press corner and the safety is deep and removed from the box - whats open/void?
immediately, you know what, who, and how things happen. That is all that this is about. Conditioning ourselves to see the blonde in the red dress below This same model applies to understanding current events - if you don't have a firm grasp of history your perception of what is happening today is distorted. "Rommel! You magnificient i3astard! I read your book!!!"[pattern recognition] This is why I figured I'd title it ID(entification) vs IQ (intelligence). Being able to recognize patterns trumps however much you (think) you know. Understanding how it all works together is the cog of functioning application of data. Responding and setting up moves in chess is one thing, dealing with the incompetence of your opponent is another.
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Post by knight9299 on Apr 3, 2009 9:58:49 GMT -6
This is why I love working with freshmen and sophomores. I get to see the game slow down for them. They finally see how what they do as a individual ties into the guy next to them. Or to watch a Mike linebacker see the play call patterns and alert his teammates of what is coming the next play. Or am I reading this wrong?
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Post by brophy on Apr 3, 2009 10:02:25 GMT -6
that is exactly what we're talking about, only this, primarily is dealing with coaches / coordinators.
Understanding the relationship of ALL the pieces on the field. This 'wiring' that we create is what enables us to be able to adapt, adjust, and apply in a game. We can have a dozen ways to run power or blitz the SLB, but if we honestly don't understand it's impact on everything else, we really have no tangible benefit.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Apr 3, 2009 10:23:56 GMT -6
A practice (or mental exercise) that I have engaged in for the last 20 or so years sort of fits in with the ideas expressed above. I always watch as many games as I possibly can, I coach them in my head and make coaching decisions(not after the fact ones), and compare my decisions with the actual coaches' decisions, and then view the outcome. I've done it so long now I can analyze the last play, call the O, the D, and have some chips and beer before the next play is run. I think this has been a helpful practice.
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Post by dubber on Apr 3, 2009 10:30:39 GMT -6
From a defensive standpoint, would this apply also to understanding offensive play series and HOW they conflict certain defenders?
Jet, Jet, Jet, Veer?
Amazing how the "best stuff" when it comes to running anything always reverts to
1.) pragmatism (not "this is the way it's always been)
and
2.) Philosophy......"whats" are a lot easier when we know "why".
pattern recognition
Good stuff
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Post by brophy on Apr 3, 2009 10:36:58 GMT -6
they are retarded by emotion(rah-rah), familiarity (comfort), pride(title-seeking), they have always played _______ position, or they see RB as a high position in life than TE, etc. Preach it, brotha!!! to steal a concept from Coach Slack, the kids TODAY are even more wired for this type of efficiency maybe more than us old guys. This fires those same synapses. Kids today, spend tons of time playing video games, which gives them thousands of reps each day with rote memorization in identifying concepts, associating the relationships, and creating rapid-responses that require very little thinking (every get slaughtered in 'Call of Duty' by a bunch of 8 year olds?? It is not because they are more intelligent or understand modern warfare) This same concept/model works for us, adults, as coaches, to 1) look at the game unfolding, divorced from emotion, see it for what it is 2) identify, from past film study (of tons of film, and it doesn't necessarily need to be your opponent) relative situations/alignments/views 3) recall what has been run before and the result Again, this really has nothing to do with scheme, O/D/K, it is a global view of football. If we 'see' the game and can identify how the ripples that unfold affect the entire pond, we will be better prepared / equiped to deal with whatever situation (=a better coach)
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Post by knight9299 on Apr 3, 2009 10:37:10 GMT -6
that is exactly what we're talking about, only this, primarily is dealing with coaches / coordinators. Understanding the relationship of ALL the pieces on the field. This 'wiring' that we create is what enables us to be able to adapt, adjust, and apply in a game. We can have a dozen ways to run power or blitz the SLB, but if we honestly don't understand it's impact on everything else, we really have no tangible benefit. Ah. Like how it took me a season and a half to realize that blitzing Mike means I lose his ability to play down hill and clean up the ball carrier after the end, nose and sam did their job?
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Post by mattharris75 on Apr 3, 2009 10:45:16 GMT -6
Brophy, I see the application of this with regards to coaching. However, I think it's just as important with players, as shown in a couple of examples from previous posts.
In the case of our program, we've only been around for 4 years. 1 year of non-league play and 3 years of league play. With the exception of the first year of our existence we've been lousy on defense. Offense, to a degree, can be learned and played by rote. This is not the case with defense.
Our first year, we were athletically dominant compared to every other team we played. Defensively, we won by brute force. It was obvious in the way the kids played that, while they were good athletes, they hadn't grown up playing football and consequently they didn't understand why they were being instructed to do certain things. Because of that lack of understanding, those keys to future success just didn't stick very well.
A major failing with our coaching staff was not adequately addressing this issue. Instead the head coach/D coordinator attempted to overcome the lack of 'ID' by increasing the complexity of schemes. Still, without the ability to rapidly process what was going on around them and react appropriately, this was mostly worthless.
My terminology for this was to state that defensive football is a 'Learned Instinct'. I think this fits in line with exactly what you're saying with the chess analogy, and is equally important for both coaches and players. It needs to be cultivated in players, by their coaches, by way of film study, explanations of how all 11 guys are just different pieces of the same puzzle, etc.
This is still a problem for us, to a lesser degree every year, but if someone has any unique ways for teaching 'ID' to players, I'd love to hear them.
Good stuff. Thanks Brophy!
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Post by brophy on Apr 3, 2009 10:50:01 GMT -6
I think the player component is absolutely vital to success. However, this discussion/model (not to be a prude) is really focused on COACHES and esentially the humility involved in introspection (self improvement to serve the players). The reason I felt like bringing it up, was because I think the 'myth' of being a "Great Coach" requiring years and years of service, and you have to pay your dues, and work your way up - is complete bunk. While you do need as much experience as you can get, the most important element in being able to MANAGE a game, requires you to understand everything working together. You can be a guitar virtuoso, but if you do not understand chord changes or keys, you are worthless. Many times, I think we can focus on the trivial things like scheme and positions, losing sight of what actually matters.
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Post by mattharris75 on Apr 3, 2009 10:57:58 GMT -6
I think the player component is absolutely vital to success. However, this discussion/model (not to be a prude) is really focused on COACHES and esentially the humility involved in introspection (self improvement to serve the players) Sorry, wasn't attempting to hijack your thread. With regards to self improvement, I know that's why I'm on this site. To soak up the experiences, both good and bad, of others so that I can make myself a better coach. My ID capabilities are certainly weaker than I'd like them to be, and I can't provide to my players something I don't have.
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Post by dubber on Apr 3, 2009 12:04:43 GMT -6
This works not only within the "concert" of 22 bodies, but also with in the "concert" of the game flow. Just like a chess master knows the counter to a surprise opening move, so to does the GOOD football coach know the counter to being surprised by being behind 2 scores 6:00 minutes into the game. The rest of us, just freeze, because of unfamilarity. I really believe this is the source of the Run and Shoot's (and it's cousin, the flexbone's) potency. You work against the 5-6 stimuli a defense can give you over and over and over, and eventually you look like this: Visual and pressure cues...........we should all be OL and DL coaches!
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Post by phantom on Apr 3, 2009 14:20:23 GMT -6
just for clarification, this really isn't ABOUT chess, just a neurological study on chess players about WHY they are effective (pattern recognition). you're running strong zone - WLB makes the tackle, what went wrong?
defense lines up with a press corner and the safety is deep and removed from the box - whats open/void?
immediately, you know what, who, and how things happen. That is all that this is about. Conditioning ourselves to see the blonde in the red dress below This same model applies to understanding current events - if you don't have a firm grasp of history your perception of what is happening today is distorted. "Rommel! You magnificient i3astard! I read your book!!!"[pattern recognition] This is why I figured I'd title it ID(entification) vs IQ (intelligence). Being able to recognize patterns trumps however much you (think) you know. Understanding how it all works together is the cog of functioning application of data. Responding and setting up moves in chess is one thing, dealing with the incompetence of your opponent is another. Broph, I luv ya, man but I'm probably just not smart enough to keep up with you. What the _ are you talking about?
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Post by jpdaley25 on Apr 3, 2009 17:31:30 GMT -6
It all boils down to the corpus callosum - the bridge of neural fibers which connect the right and left hemispheres of the brain. It is the bridge between skepticism and imagination, logic and creativity. It is what allows us to understand how it all works together: Cause and effect, probability and outcome, comprehension and knowledge, analysis and synthesis, deduction and induction, pattern recognition, crystalized memories and experiences from knowing and walking the path over and over, wisdom... and then...abilities and processes that can't be seen or described and are so complex that science can't explain them - it becomes an art rather than a science.
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Post by kylem56 on Apr 3, 2009 18:53:10 GMT -6
thank God I took a class in cognitive psychology not too long ago or else i would be lost on this thread
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Post by coachweav88 on Apr 3, 2009 21:52:40 GMT -6
This has been an intriguing thread. What are some practices that you would say enhance or strengthen this ability. I gather that watching game film would be one practice that would enhance this ablility. jpdaley was talking about how he watches film. Does anyone else have some other ways they watch film? What questions do you ask yourself when watching film?
Does anyone else have any other disciplines that would help them improve in this area of pattern recognition? What about playing the "last one with the chalk" game with someone. Nobody will ever win that, but can this help you think through potential adjustments, etc?
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Post by coachwarner on Apr 3, 2009 23:10:16 GMT -6
I put bread crumbs down as i was muddling my way through this thread. When i went back they were gone! Now i am lost!
Professor Brophy, Would the answer be, coaches should continuously educate themselves about the game, whether it be through learning from continuous reps/situations and/or educating the mind through extensive study. Same thing we ask and demand from our players. If not send out the search and rescue. I will just sit here and wait patiently, do my homework, and look for my corpus callosum, while I wait.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 4, 2009 7:21:46 GMT -6
This has been an intriguing thread. What are some practices that you would say enhance or strengthen this ability. I gather that watching game film would be one practice that would enhance this ablility. jpdaley was talking about how he watches film. Does anyone else have some other ways they watch film? What questions do you ask yourself when watching film? Does anyone else have any other disciplines that would help them improve in this area of pattern recognition? What about playing the "last one with the chalk" game with someone. Nobody will ever win that, but can this help you think through potential adjustments, etc? Film, books, Coach Huey, Blog-smart football, dvd's, watch football on tv, watch football live, doodle plays, chalk talks, clinics, watch other teams practice when you can, really go into all the details about one particular offense, then go to another, get in the box to call plays for your JV
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Post by brophy on Apr 4, 2009 9:59:02 GMT -6
Film, books, Coach Huey, Blog-smart football, dvd's, watch football on tv, watch football live, doodle plays, chalk talks, clinics, watch other teams practice when you can, really go into all the details about one particular offense, then go to another, get in the box to call plays for your JV Yeah, I'd have to assume those are part of the equation (bear in mind, I don't have THE answer, merely pointing out a facet of coaching development). I think jpdaley25 touched on this element very well, by pointing out the cause-effect relationship of what we see/interpret. Just like if you look at a one-back offense, and immediately you can run through a linear logic course that deduces strengths and liabilities. Just like when we see coverage shells and can make immediate assumptions about what is 'open'. Carry that a step (or two) further..... I want to say I remember the brain being able to process some 10,000 patterns in a minute, but can only be cognizant of 40 at a time. Again, this is about moving beyond the 35mm film and legal pad and pencils. We have to accellerate our 'processing power' by boiling it all down to basic concepts. Take for example, just using the following information ala 'flashcards' taking in the information and coming to immediate conclusions/assessments on what will likely happen on the field. Who are the most dangerous threats, who may be the liabilities, what isn't important, yada yada. Many of these concepts you may have seen presented by other coaches (Slack/Coverdale), and again, I'm not selling anything here - just pointing out / elucidating critical elements that make a coach better, more valuable. This is stuff most of us do, already, simply pointing out that this may be a way to force-feed growth / staff development. We are either getting better or getting worse, we never stay the same (heard that before?) - I would think it holds true for coaches, as well. You CAN be replaced. coachweav88 brought up another point of "chalk wars" - and isn't this just another (albeit 'cheap') way of doing the same thing? And doesn't this give us an immediate cause-effect memory to log? And isn't that the POINT!? Taking a scheme and rather than playing with it and enjoying it - purposely going out and trying to smash/break it. Don't be afraid to find out what DOESN'T work (and most importantly, WHY). Continually storing more and more empirical responses - but ensure this HAS to go beyond just emotional memories, but actual data; what-how-why and not just "that was a kickass play" or " that one play where dat kid got blow'd up"
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Post by touchdownmaker on Apr 4, 2009 10:12:35 GMT -6
There is a strong correlation between football and chess as Brophy leads to though.
Ill give my own opinion on this, if you take a chess master who has played thousands of games and been in the same positions with the same material time and time again and compare it to a coach who has coached hundreds of games with similar positions and material its the familiarity of the situation and the speed of the game that comes into recall so to speak. The ability to analize is so much faster due to the familiarity and experience of the situation time and time again.
If you run the same offense and defense long enough you know it so well, its much like playing the same opening or defense in chess...you master its strengths and weaknesses, and like chess, you pick your poison because nothing is perfect. By sticking with it, you learn how to diagnose whats ailing your team quickly. Game day adjustments are much more rapid and sound due to the "been there, done that" experience.
btw, dont play Ted Seay in chess. He will make you hide under your kitchen sink in the fetal position for days.
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Post by brophy on Apr 4, 2009 10:14:55 GMT -6
There is a strong correlation between football and chess as Brophy leads to though. thanks, but this actually has nothing to do with chess, nor did I make that assertion (despite the pretty picture above) I have learned in the last few months that I must be the worst communicator on the planet. Game day adjustments are much more rapid and sound due to the "been there, done that" experience. that is what we're talking about, but more than familiarization with a scheme, it is understanding fundamental pieces that are present in every contest.
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Post by silkyice on Apr 4, 2009 15:29:55 GMT -6
I have learned in the last few months that I must be the worst communicator on the planet. Brophy, I understood you completely the first time. Your posts always make sense.
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Post by Coach Bennett on Apr 4, 2009 21:20:48 GMT -6
Five years ago I went to my first game to scout an opponent as a new member of our staff. At the first snap I heard the coaches I was with saying "yep, 4 front w/a 3 tech" and "cov 3 robber" etc. Honestly, I was lost. I couldn't figure out how they could look at a cluster of 22 kids and discern what was what.
Lots of film and live scouting and actual games has started to clear this up. It is absolutely all about patterns and recognizing them based on the ever-growing library in this small cabeza of mine.
Fast forward to today...went to a scrimmage at UCF and in a snap shot of the defense I see Cov 2 w/lb'er locked on the inside slot to field. It was a passing down and w/out really thinking about it, I knew the qb was going to the backside. Why? Not b/c I'm some genius coach, b/c I'm not. What I did recognize though, was a 3 on 2 match-up to the wideside resulting in a 2 on 2 alignment on the backside. Sure enough, backside slant attacks the defense.
When you look at a defense and check the mof, aren't you really looking for a pattern of possible coverage? Based on what you see, you are instantly led to fewer and fewer possibilities of what the other team is doing and hopefully you have answers "right now" not based on your IQ rather your experience at identifying what it is you're given.
Great thread Brophy.
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Post by 19delta on Apr 4, 2009 22:58:26 GMT -6
I'm probably really dumbing down the discussion here, but aren't you guys basically talking about making adjustments after the opposing team stops or takes away whatever it is you do best?
Are we talking about not only having "answers" for various offense/defensive/special team scenarios that emerge in the course of a game but also having the ability to react rapidly and effectively to those changing game conditions?
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Post by spreadattack on Apr 5, 2009 9:57:41 GMT -6
I'm probably really dumbing down the discussion here, but aren't you guys basically talking about making adjustments after the opposing team stops or takes away whatever it is you do best? Are we talking about not only having "answers" for various offense/defensive/special team scenarios that emerge in the course of a game but also having the ability to react rapidly and effectively to those changing game conditions? Yeah, I think the idea is just recognition and response. And brophy's point is something along the lines of the best way to get there is to put in the hours watching football and seeing the patterns emerge. Gameplanning helps with this too, but insofar as you have to react on the fly it better be instinctual. The nice thing about this is that you don't have to be a genius to be effective. And the other nice thing is it supports the common sense proposition that coaches who have been around probably know what they are talking about because they've seen it all. I think brophy's point is just this common sense idea that the more you study the more you know and the better you can react to things, though supported by this scientific study which seems to say that this "recognition" goes beyond even your consciousness and just becomes how your brain is wired. That's a scary thought: that watching a lot of football can wire your brain in a certain way. Guess that explains OJW ;D
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Post by khalfie on Apr 5, 2009 10:59:36 GMT -6
IQ always beats ID... IQ is what allows you to recognize the importance of ID... There is no ID without IQ... Hell, you need IQ to establish the parameters for ID... How do you explain "child Prodigies", that obviously don't have the practical experience to have ID without IQ? I would argue, that IQ is nothing more than a superior ability to ID... But I'm not sayin' I"m just sayin'
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Post by brophy on Apr 5, 2009 13:24:58 GMT -6
If you cannot identify the situation, you cannot apply your wisdom/intelligence.
Again, we're just illustrating something already established, not breaking any new ground. Just pointing out (like spreadattack and red described) how the muscle-memory response we train our kids to experience is not unlike the neuron-firing-to-synapse-response we initiate when we condition ourselves to immediately fire through seeing the field. We're talking about the unconscious action of [correctly] assessing the entire picture. Many times we may not be even able to articulate everything we have processed (IQ).
I may be able to teach the "pizza block", a dozen ways to wham/trap the line, or 50 blitzes to get pressure (IQ), but if I cannot apply them by understanding what is happening on the field (ID), all I am doing is mashing the X & [] buttons on my Madden controller / dial-a-play.
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