stylee
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by stylee on Mar 31, 2009 11:06:05 GMT -6
Not sure where this should go...
is there any "good" way for an assistant to tell the HC when he's doing something wrong/something needs to be changed? I don't mean for this to just be a question about my personal situation either, as I can imagine this happening to other coaches as well.
This is semi-pro.
I like our head coach. He's a nice guy who's very effective in dealing with our players, many of whom are "hood." I played for him for 3 years. etc.
But there are certain things I see him do on the offensive side that just don't make sense. Like, ignoring our set pass plays and just assigning different routes to WRs before every play. It went on like this for the last 3 quarters. This was particularly problematic this weekend, when our starting (stud) QB was out and our backup guy had no clue what defenders he was keying for these random combinations, how many steps he was taking, or what his protection was ---- and managed to throw 3 interceptions and fumble twice. 3 of those turnovers were returned for touchdowns.
What's the most effective way to tell your superior that what he's doing might not be in our best interests?
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Post by brophy on Mar 31, 2009 11:10:21 GMT -6
just ask questions.
It is one thing to arbitrarily make stuff up, it is another when you have to explain/justify what in the world you are doing.
In doing so, maybe what he does will make sense to you and you'll learn something (or maybe he will figure out he needs help)
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Post by cnunley on Mar 31, 2009 11:13:25 GMT -6
I think you need to come at him with answers to the problems you are seeing. "Coach, why don't we try doing this because ________" Give him the suggestion and the reason for the suggestion. As long as you approach it in a professional manner and not give him the impression you're trying to be the boss everything should be fine.
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Post by coachwilley on Mar 31, 2009 11:56:15 GMT -6
I second CNunley on this..
When I worked on a college staff I thought what the HC said made sense regarding this issue. He said that he wanted our input and ideas as much as possible, but don't tell me you don't like something. When you don't like something, always come with a solution to do it better and the logic behind it. Then he went on to say that he might not agree with me and might only listen to 1 in 20 suggestions, but he would expect me to still give my suggestions even if I didn't think he would listen to them.
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Post by saintrad on Mar 31, 2009 12:01:00 GMT -6
I second CNunley on this.. When I worked on a college staff I thought what the HC said made sense regarding this issue. He said that he wanted our input and ideas as much as possible, but don't tell me you don't like something. When you don't like something, always come with a solution to do it better and the logic behind it. Then he went on to say that he might not agree with me and might only listen to 1 in 20 suggestions, but he would expect me to still give my suggestions even if I didn't think he would listen to them. I like this philosophy. |
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Post by cnunley on Mar 31, 2009 12:16:13 GMT -6
Most HC's dont want a "Yes Sir" kind of guy for everything. I approach my HC with different ideas/suggestions a lot. Doesnt mean most/if any are used but at least I'm throwing things out there and he knows I'm not just sitting back during the offseason right now doing nothing. ya know?
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Post by jgordon1 on Mar 31, 2009 12:28:32 GMT -6
I second CNunley on this.. When I worked on a college staff I thought what the HC said made sense regarding this issue. He said that he wanted our input and ideas as much as possible, but don't tell me you don't like something. When you don't like something, always come with a solution to do it better and the logic behind it. Then he went on to say that he might not agree with me and might only listen to 1 in 20 suggestions, but he would expect me to still give my suggestions even if I didn't think he would listen to them. If possible...I also might want to back this up w/ film of where your suggestions have been successful. It's one thing to suggest and have a logical reason.. as they say sopposedly the physics of the bumblebee doesn't allow it to fly...but if you can see it.... |
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stylee
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by stylee on Mar 31, 2009 12:37:28 GMT -6
Thanks, guys.
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Post by dubber on Mar 31, 2009 12:40:39 GMT -6
As "THAT" assistant (y'know, the one who is always asking the "What about this?" questions), I have a system in place for myself.
1. I present what I think make us better. I give reasons.
2. If our OC disagrees, he gives me the reasons why.
3. I present a counter point to that.
4. He gets the final say.
5. I shut up.
This is a comfort thing with him and I. He doesn't mind listening to my ideas, and we are very close philosophy wise, so we usually agree.
What we do not agree on, I give one set of counter points, and then I drop it. The boss gave him authority over the offense, and I will not usurp that or even nag about it.
In the end, it's a cost-benefit analysis for me (as well as a respect thing).
If I gripe and get my way once, resentment could build, and nothing I say after that will be taken seriously. Also, if our staff is not cohesive, does it matter that we doing receiver's take-offs a potentially better way?
no.
Bottom line, I'm just happy to be on a staff where I have no fear of dismissal or rolling-the-eyes-"here-we-go-again" syndrome.
But that,
is not
the point
of this
thread.
If he is completely against listening to "systematizing" the offense, then you either deal with it, or leave.
Approach him tactfully, and lay it out. If he doesn't like it, well, he's the boss, and if he wants to run lonesome polecat as a base, that's his call.
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Post by dubber on Mar 31, 2009 12:43:06 GMT -6
I've always just handled it by saying something: "hey slapd!ck, we need to do something about..." or "I don't like how we are __________." Just open your mouth and speak it. This type of tact is, uh, not exactly what I was talking about, but the last sentence is a great point. |
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Post by coachbleu on Mar 31, 2009 13:02:35 GMT -6
I've always just handled it by saying something: "hey slapd!ck, we need to do something about..." or "I don't like how we are __________." Just open your mouth and speak it. My kinda tact. I like it. |
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Post by warrior53 on Mar 31, 2009 13:46:35 GMT -6
I second CNunley on this.. When I worked on a college staff I thought what the HC said made sense regarding this issue. He said that he wanted our input and ideas as much as possible, but don't tell me you don't like something. When you don't like something, always come with a solution to do it better and the logic behind it. Then he went on to say that he might not agree with me and might only listen to 1 in 20 suggestions, but he would expect me to still give my suggestions even if I didn't think he would listen to them. If possible...I also might want to back this up w/ film of where your suggestions have been successful. It's one thing to suggest and have a logical reason.. as they say sopposedly the physics of the bumblebee doesn't allow it to fly...but if you can see it.... I am not sure about this one - if I am putting myself in a HC role I might be a little offended by this one, for some reason that seems like you are talking down to me. I have also had this backfire on me. I had a coach that was open to suggestions, but once you brought out the film that was not accepted very well. |
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Post by mariner42 on Mar 31, 2009 16:24:49 GMT -6
I'm a bit of a "hey, what about this..." guy, where I have a thought, run it by the header, and then hopefully dialogue from there. I very rarely push things past suggestion, but when I do it's respectfully and usually away from earshot of the players.
My role has always been as a DC/ST coach, which has always colored how I approach interactions with any HC. I'm not going to tell him how to do his job, he's not going to tell me how to do mine, but we're both allowed to make suggestions. If he wants to put his foot down on something, that's his prerogative, just don't expect me to smile about it. I like having a certain amount of autonomy and I like to extend that to my colleagues.
I suppose mine's just a more specific 'do unto others...'
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Post by jgordon1 on Mar 31, 2009 16:26:26 GMT -6
If possible...I also might want to back this up w/ film of where your suggestions have been successful. It's one thing to suggest and have a logical reason.. as they say sopposedly the physics of the bumblebee doesn't allow it to fly...but if you can see it.... I am not sure about this one - if I am putting myself in a HC role I might be a little offended by this one, for some reason that seems like you are talking down to me. I have also had this backfire on me. I had a coach that was open to suggestions, but once you brought out the film that was not accepted very well. the eye in the sky doesn't lie. Sounds to me your HC wasn't leavinghis ego at the door |
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Coach Unk
Junior Member
[F4:coachdonjones]
Posts: 392
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Post by Coach Unk on Mar 31, 2009 19:35:12 GMT -6
he is a man, ask him why he is doing what he is doing. His title shouldn't and doesn't make him uncorrectable.
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 31, 2009 20:08:07 GMT -6
I believe this is stuff you hash out in your off-season meetings (PUtting together the playbook, breakdown tape and preparing game plans...). This should not be brought up now, during the season...
Now if the head coach is "losing it" then yeah call him out on the carpet. Ask what is this and where did it come from? If the guy is making crap up in the middle of the game like "Hey Joey on our CAT route you now run a comeback and not a curl... And Johnny on our Mesh route you run a fade instead of a pick..." If he is doing this crap during a game - then YES by all means bring it up.... If that is the case the guys sounds like he is a Azzclown and he needs some input... If you are saying in the middle of the game he is making crap up that you never covered or went over... I say GET OUT as soon as you can. He is a messs!!
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Post by bigm0073 on Mar 31, 2009 20:12:54 GMT -6
Just reading this over there is also another simple solution -
I am a high school coach and we have the usual beaters
1. Cover III Beaters
2. Cover II Beaters
3. COver O Beaters
4. Cover 4 - off coverage beaters...
This pretty standard stuff that I thought everyone did... This is what we do in the off-season and 7 on 7 in the spring and summer... We just rep the beaters to death...
What am I missing? In the middle of the game if you are getting cover 2 then go to what you have... YOu getting cover 0 and blitzes go to that... No need to make shhit up...
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 31, 2009 22:14:21 GMT -6
there are certain things I see him do on the offensive side that just don't make sense. Like, ignoring our set pass plays and just assigning different routes to WRs before every play. Actually that method was in common use in the pros in the middle 1960s. Y.A. Tittle explained it in a booklet that was given out promotionally by I forgot what sponsor, How To Watch Pro Football on TV. (That was when they were still trying to promote pro football, during the decade the NFL & AFL were really sold.) The trouble with the method described above is that it works when you have Tittle in the huddle calling his own plays, but obviously not so well when someone is sending them in! Was he a QB? Maybe he still thinks of himself as in the huddle calling the plays, and doesn't realize he can't project that psychically on another player who has to make the reads. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Apr 1, 2009 3:43:51 GMT -6
I got to chime in on this for just one second.
I am sure every coach in world has assistants that make suggestions and share observations. Thats VALUE from your assistants, they are extra eyes. What will drive a header nuts however is when assistants CALL PLAYS rather than SHARE OBSERVATIONS. For example "coach lets run a screen here" and theres no discussion of why , in the mean time another coach is on the head set screaming 'no waggle, waggle , waggle" - ....worse, oh boy and this one chaps my arse. Coach "show up on game night" who could also be known as coach "I was great in the 60s" who has no clue about what we practice all week is giving BAD INFORMATION and obviously still "happy" from happy hour ....anyone else ever coach with THAT GUY?
In any case, making suggestions and offering solutions to problems is a very good thing. Dont do it in front of the players, do it behind closed doors and do that sort of thing as much as possible in off season meetings. I cant imagine any header giving too much consideration to things a coach who is invisible all off season has to say. Sometimes theres a whole lot of suggestions coming from part time weekend warrior coaches who lack insight into the big picture.
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 1, 2009 5:33:15 GMT -6
Well I still go back to if I read his initial passage right that the HEAD COACH is wrong here... How can you expect to lead and follow when you are doing stuff in a game that you do not go over in meetings and practice. That just is not good coaching.
Sounds like the assistant is trying but when your head coach is "all over the place" it really makes it hard.
I believe this ALL goes back to organization from the head.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Apr 1, 2009 6:08:01 GMT -6
What it comes down to:
1) never work for someone you dont respect
2) never work with someone you dont respect
3) never work where you cant earn respect no matter how many hoops you jump through.
If assistant doesnt resepect the header he leaves, if the header doesnt respect the assistant, the assistant should leave.
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 1, 2009 6:32:10 GMT -6
I am with you on that. If I were this guy I would "ride out" this year and do the best you can and move on.... This head coach is clearly a mess!
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Post by touchdownmaker on Apr 1, 2009 6:36:22 GMT -6
I think sometimes people think a head coach should be perfect. Seriously if this is the worst thing the guy does then they are lucky (based on my experiences).
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 1, 2009 8:39:17 GMT -6
Agree but making crap up during the game... .It really undermines the assitant coaches...makes them look like a-holes and also shows the players you are "panicing"...
We as head coaches always say we want assistants who work hard and who can teach our sysytem... But when a coach pulls a stunt like above - he loses the respect of the assistant. I know, I have been there..
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Post by touchdownmaker on Apr 1, 2009 8:59:41 GMT -6
I hear you. In the world of semi pro ball I would imagine that the offense is far from complete due to players frequently missing practices and that sort of thing. Is it possible in any way that his adjustments were due to that sort of thing? what is the BIG PICTURE that leads the head coach to draw up plays in the dirt during a game?
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Apr 1, 2009 9:02:31 GMT -6
I'm on the same level here-
I'm not a "draw it up in the dirt" type of guy- if we're going to run something we need to have practiced it during the week.
When a head coach does stuff like that it sends a message that he doesn't trust his staff and/or he's a mess...I worked for a guy that "fired me" as an OC literally everytime our offense turned the ball over. What a joke!
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stylee
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by stylee on Apr 1, 2009 9:13:54 GMT -6
Hey, I'd like to thank y'all again. I respect the coach. He does a good job with discipline, knows our personal, and has a good feel for what a defense's weaknesses are (although it seems to me that he's much better in this regard in the run game than the pass game, which is where I wind up offering most of my observations). It's just this "wing it" attitude that he gets when he feels the defense is vulnerable to our offense spreading it out often confuses the offense. So, f''rinstance - he taps me to call the plays on a given drive. I say "that FS is biting hard to a side, let's go 4 verticals and go away from him."
We do, hit the left seam when the FS goes right, get down to the 10 yard line.
I say "Okay, halfback draw" and we get to the 5.
Then Coach says "Okay, tell Tom to run a curl, Dick to run a drag, Harry to run a slant, and John to run a fade" and we throw a pick.
I'm not saying I see things on the field better or anything - I have not been around football for as long and don't get everything right, and, yes, Tom was open on the curl....I just don't think it's the best way to do things.
I should just talk to him directly and respectfully about it, as seems to be the drift of this thread. The last thing I want to be is THAT assistant who has some kind of power war with the head.
I don't know how much longer I will be involved with coaching, but I'd like to do it right while I am. |
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stylee
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by stylee on Apr 1, 2009 9:17:50 GMT -6
I hear you. In the world of semi pro ball I would imagine that the offense is far from complete due to players frequently missing practices and that sort of thing. Is it possible in any way that his adjustments were due to that sort of thing? what is the BIG PICTURE that leads the head coach to draw up plays in the dirt during a game? True. On this level, there is a certain amount of drawing it in the dirt that's just necessary - as you say, players miss practice, we don't practice 5 times a week, guys are sometimes playing positions they're not used to. I'd just like to do it as little as possible. |
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Post by bigm0073 on Apr 1, 2009 11:38:51 GMT -6
Real Simple - Like I said before... Teach Concepts -
1. If you get man or cover 0 - Have 3 beaters
2. Cover III - have 3-4 beaters
3. Cover II - have 3 -4 beaters
4. Off Coverage IV (Similar to III) - have beaters
You teach maybe 12 - 14 concepts and rep the HELL out of them... No need to "draw it up in my opinion..."
All do respect the guy sounds like a mess and if you are organized you WILL ALWAYS but head... At the end of the season I would move on if I were you.
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stylee
Sophomore Member
Posts: 178
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Post by stylee on Apr 2, 2009 9:31:44 GMT -6
The head works on one of our practice days, I do the offense the other 1-2 days we practice that week
So, against C3 I run a lot of 4-Verts, which often has a seam guy open. Sometimes if the LBs and CBs start getting scared, I do 4 curls.
The RnS "Go"
Mesh, often to the mesh guy going to the right. This is a pretty simple read for our QB.
Smash. Again, we usually get the read correct on this.
I also rep the RnS "Switch" quite a bit, but for some reason that seems harder for the QBs to read than "Go".
Does this seem like a decent group of plays for the C3 and C1 defenses we usually play? I run the RnS stuff at a much higher proportion than the other plays, because (a) I think the reads are obviously going to be more complicated and take more practice to get down, and (b) they *should* work against most coverages. I make sure that we're getting our Smash and Mesh reads down pat, however.
Again, I'm not trying to put in "my system" - - - if I had my druthers, we'd just go flexbone triple all the time, with a playaction and RnS passing game, PJ style.
I'm just not sure what "his system" is in the passing game. He's good at seeing matchups and who's overplaying what, but it's he accomplishes it by drawing-in-the-dirt. It takes up too much time and confuses our QBs.
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