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Post by dubber on Mar 12, 2009 11:57:29 GMT -6
THIS PART IS AN INTRODUCTION TO MY QUESTION:  So, we decided as a staff that going no huddle gave us (among a dozen other things) an advantage in making the defense vanilla. So,  Defenses started to evolve. They started rotating coverages and stemming fronts, trying to delay our playcall, and hopefully, get us to commit to the wrong call. We were pretty successful, but a couple of teams gave us some problems with this. So,  WE decided to institute a DUMMY call this year. We simply go through our cadance and then try to draw the defense offsides. If they don't jump, we at least get to see what they are going to be in, and can now call the appropriate play. THIS IS MY QUESTION: In anticipation of defenses going back to this:  I was wondering what else they could come up with....... I suppose the most likely (and only benefical) adjustment is changing the defense after the DUMMY call (in which case we either get set and snap quickly, or call DUMMY again)........being as the offense has the burden of the play clock and delay of game penalty, we can't keep calling DUMMY until we figure it out. The most likely way I see them doing this is with a simple check system, which defenses use anyway to communicate a change in coverage (alright, if I call 2 and they come out in trips, check to 3....."check, check")......which then leads back to us trying to decide what that check is, and if they are really going to use it. EX: We use a DUMMY, and notice cover 0....we call fade, but they checked to 3 after our DUMMY call. Next time we call DUMMY, see cover 0, but call a 3 beater in anticipation of the check......that they may or may not get to....... So, my question is: What all experience have you guys had, on both sides of the ball, with this:  and keeping the defense honest while keeping the offense rolling? I know I overthank (past form of "overthink") that a lot, but hey, it's March, and that's what football coaches do.  |
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Post by eaglemountie on Mar 12, 2009 12:15:58 GMT -6
Alot of what we did in college was in the case of a passing down out of a 2x2 set was call a zone beater to one side of the formation and a man beater to the other. Worked well against "vanilla defenses" and if we got a combination coverage or some type of cover 8 or under coverage the QB always had the green light to tuck it and run.
In a run situation we called an odd front run to the right and an even front run to the left and the QB had to make the proper check before the snap. I'm sure your next question would be about a stemming defense in this run scenario and all I can say we did is we were a zone team so it didnt really matter how they stemmed as long as our slots could identify the man over them. Also against those stemming fronts our O-line was responsible for the proper checks in our man schemes thus taking more responsibility out of the QBs hands when talking about moving fronts vs. the run.
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Post by otowncoach on Mar 12, 2009 12:33:14 GMT -6
I think this is where your tempo comes in to play. If you have several tempos you can use, the defense never gets into a rhythm. They won't know if you are going to run a play as quick as possible (NASCAR) or check with the sideline (Look). That will keep the defense off balance more than anything.
If you are looking to the sideline EVERY time, then they will know never to show their hand until after you look. If you have the capability of snapping the ball NOW then they need to be in position from the second the ball is spotted.
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Post by dubber on Mar 12, 2009 12:42:24 GMT -6
I think this is where your tempo comes in to play. If you have several tempos you can use, the defense never gets into a rhythm. They won't know if you are going to run a play as quick as possible (NASCAR) or check with the sideline (Look). That will keep the defense off balance more than anything. If you are looking to the sideline EVERY time, then they will know never to show their hand until after you look. If you have the capability of snapping the ball NOW then they need to be in position from the second the ball is spotted. Basically, we want to get set as soon as possible. We are a wristband team, so we may call the play immediately after the formation, or wait. We don't really teach our kids tempo's, they just know that coach called the play early, let's run it NOW........or, he hasn't called, just get on the ball and wait (look to the sidelines). So, our tempo is to get the defense set quick (take advantage if they don't), then get into the right play. Our DUMMY call aids us in that. |
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Post by Coach Huey on Mar 12, 2009 14:39:04 GMT -6
call play - look - stay or dummy ... do lots of "dummy" signals even when you are not changing the play ... crap, they don't know what the hell you're doing so it adds to the idea that they don't have you figured out...
sometimes, simply call a play and don't look, just snap it... sometimes, see just how fast you can snap the ball... these calls should be pretty standard with the serious fast tempo being things that employ zone schemes so as not to confuse yourself if the defense hasn't lined up.
sometimes, call a play, look - get a DUMMY run it signal, act like snapping a 2nd time then LOOK AGAIN ...
merely control when the ball is snapped, when you look, how fast you get all of it sent in, etc.
want to really screw 'em up on the 'delay defense call?' .... set in a formation quickly.... appear to snap it, then SHIFT .... THEN look? or, shift and run play.
hell, you control the thing. just practice all possible scenarios/tempos you wish to use.
then, mix in the direct snap to the RB while the receivers and qb are turned looking at the sideline. great for DL that takes a knee while you are looking or for those geniuses that stand up and look to their sideline.... get set, fake snap, turn to sideline (don't move)... rb stay looking ahead... center counts to 3 then snaps to rb... road grater and look out.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Mar 12, 2009 16:28:42 GMT -6
You guys are a lot smarter than me on this stuff, but here's what Ive been running into from more and more teams - probably 5 last season.
Whatever they are showing, isn't what they are running. They have everything disguised. They are stemming just before the snap. They are sprinting to different coverages after the snap.
And they are using wristbands on D. The dummy calls don't work because they can change the call as quickly as we can. Last year was my first year in the spread. In two preseason scrimmages we were able to see the defense line up and call a play off of it. That ended in game 1. They were sprinting to different coverages after the snap and we threw 3 picks in the first quarter before stupid ole me figured out what they were doing.
The obvious answer - run the ball. But we just didn't have the size, speed, or ability to run the ball consistantly against most of the teams we faced.
Our answer - throw more quicks, use only concepts that are good against multiple coverages, and teach a progression read. How can my QB figure out what they are doing in a few seconds when I have to look at it two or three times on film to figure it out? ....On that one they lined up in 3, sprinted to 2 at the snap on one side, 4 on the other side, a LB came out and covered our back in the flats for 1 second, let him go, and then sprinted deep all before the ball was thrown. And they never did the same thing twice in a row.
Our other answer (to be implemented this year) - More option and play action.
I've written a few posts asking for advice about universal or most versatile passing concepts, ones that are good against the most coverages, for that very reason. When the defense is doing that, my QB isn't going to be able to tell what coverage they are in, but he can check post/dig/shallow and have a reasonable chance of finding the open guy. I think the intelligence has to be in the concept. And what concept do you call when they are running multiple coverages and you won't know what they are in until the ball is snapped? The ones that are good against everything.
So, if there are some magical concepts out there that are good against anything and use progression reads - I would love to learn about those.
I may be way off base, but I dont know enough to come to any other conclusion.
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Post by knight9299 on Mar 12, 2009 16:43:56 GMT -6
I see all these offenses line up check the OC, wait a little bit, the offense turns back to the OC, maybe this time the ball is snapped, maybe more turning the sideline. Being slow I figured the OC couldn't teach his QB how to read coverage/defeses. I posted this once and Brophy implied I was being stupid, never explained why he thought I was dumb. I got to thinking am I missing something? Normally Brophy doesn't call somebody an idiot unless they are missing something TOTALLY obvious. It finally hit me! Everytime the offense turned to check out the OC didn't necessarily mean a new play was coming, they were being tricky! But in the end what initially got me called stupid by Brophy still held true. If you can't call a play and live with it's results, maybe you're worrying too much about the defense and not worrying enough about your offenses execution.
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 12, 2009 19:18:28 GMT -6
This is the sort of thing a defense will do from weakness: turn it into a guessing game. Unless you're tipping the play -- by formation, tendencies, somebody's stance or wayward glance -- when the defense switches, much of the time it's going to be to coverage inferior to what they showed. And on top of that, a certain fraction of the time you'll catch them in the switch, with nobody covered.
If they've made themselves unreadable -- and they may not have -- then accept the guessing game and don't try to read them. Vary your snap counts. You'll throw picks, but unless they get lucky (which is what they hope), they'll be more than balanced by completely blown coverages.
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mase04
Probationary Member
Posts: 5
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Post by mase04 on Mar 15, 2009 9:37:31 GMT -6
1> initial call should be the call you THINK is the best one (pretty much like what you would do when in a huddle/no-check mode)
2> vary whether or not you will check the sideline to determine if you will actually run the initial play or get an audibled play
3> have a few "speed" plays where you signal the whole thing and execute the snap with as much speed as possible
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