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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 3, 2009 12:57:50 GMT -6
Coaches and Board Members plz weigh in.
Whats the best format for a Pre Season Draft? I know many leagues/clubs don't have a draft, maybe a tryout and player makes it or doesn't. However many programs are "pay you play" so there is a draft.
Whats the best format that allows veteran coache to maintain a competetive team yet allows a rookie coach that may not know the talent to field a competetive team.
Ex.
Open style: Each player is drafted by a coach based on tryout info in a pre-determine draft order.
Closed style: Players stay on the previous seasons team and coaches only draft new players or rising players into a higher divsion based on tryout info.
Blind style: Board Memeber/Coach will place each player on a team at random "out of a hat" based on tryout info.
Thanks
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 3, 2009 13:17:47 GMT -6
We hold a player evaluation combine at each age level prior to our draft. Players return to the same team at that age level but are redrafted at the next age level.
As long as no coaches "fall asleep at the wheel", so to speak, when drafting, I cannot see a better way to allocate talent evenly across the teams in a league than a "live" draft. Teams are only allowed to protect the Head Coach and Asst. Head Coach's children in our system. Our draft order sequence gives preference to the team picking last in initial rounds. (1,2,3,4,5,6,6,1,2,3,4,5,5,6,1,2,3...)
We utilized the "out of the hat" method years ago and found it to be less reliable from year to year than a live draft in ensuring as level a playing field as possible. I think just about any system can work, as long as the "difference makers" are allocated fairly across your league and do not "somehow" find their way on to just a couple of "stacked" teams.
Good luck with implementing your draft coach!
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 3, 2009 14:34:20 GMT -6
In our league, each association (i.e. city) has geographical boundaries and generally takes kids on a first-come, first-served basis, so there is no need for a draft. However, there are a handful of associations that field more than one team in each age division, so they do have to address this.
My feeling is that existing teams should be kept intact and only new players should be assigned to teams. If you are adding a new team to an age division where an existing team already competes, existing players should be given the option to go to the new team (most won't, but some 2nd stringers might move for the opportunity to start on the new team), and then the new team should get to pick from the new players until they have an equal size roster.
If you're going to have a complete draft of all players each year, the best way to do this is to have the coaches compile however many teams with as equal talent as possible. After the teams are complete, the coaches then pull names from a hat to see which team they are assigned to (this gives a pretty strong incentive to make the teams even, since they don't know which group they'll be getting). Of course, you have to pull the coach's kids out of the draft (and any kidless coach could then choose any player(s) to match the player(s) that the other coaches get automatically). And you have to guard against manipulation - kids mysteriously showing up after the draft and requesting to be placed on my friend's team or whatever - any anomolies like that have to be assigned to teams randomly or in some fashion that discourages unethical parents & coaches from trying that crap again in the future.
JMHO.
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 3, 2009 15:32:04 GMT -6
I think I agree with keeping teams in tact. However how does a 'Blind draft" address the "Coaches Kid" or the "I know a good coach when I see one parent" Haven't we all seen a HC recruit the fathers of studs to fake coach on his team to get the rights to the players? or A parent that wants their player on a certain team because that team won the ship last season. Can you truely make each team equal with a draft?
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 3, 2009 17:07:40 GMT -6
I don't have a lot of experience with this as I've never had to deal with a draft. However, I think it would primarily be a matter of your Board or administration laying down the law and then sticking to their guns. I guess the following formula would address most of your concerns:
Head Coaches are identified and their children are held out of the draft. For any head coaches that don't have a child playing on their team, they can identify any one player that will automatically go to their team. This would give some disadvantage to coaches with a child playing, but that's a reasonable price for getting to coach to your son, IMHO.
Alternative A: The Head Coach does not get to put together his staff until the teams are picked, so there is no concern about head coaches making the dad of the best athlete an figurehead "assistant coach" just to get his kid on the team.
Alternative B: The Head Coach can name 2 assistant coaches as his staff prior to the draft, and then can only fill out the rest of the staff after the teams have been chosen. All children of these coaches are held out of the draft, but any teams with fewer coach's kids, get their pick of any available players until all teams have the same number of players prior to the draft. For instance is Teams A, B, anc C have 3 coach's kids each, and Teams D and E have 2 coach's kids each, and Team F has none, then (based on some rotation), Teams D and E can each pick any one player and Team F can pick any three players prior to the general draft.
With the remaining players all coaches and administrators create however many teams they'll have (6 in our example) as evenly as possible, since no one knows which team they'll be assigned to.
As far as parents that want their kid to play for a certain coach, it's up to your board or administration to make it clear up front how it works and that their child will be assigned to a team randomly, and that the parents have absolutely no say in the matter. Fees must be collected prior to the draft and after the draft there should be absolutely no refunds, so there would be a large disincentive to pull out and play in another league if they don't get assigned to the coach they want.
I don't know how realistic that is, but that's what I would try to do. I guess the biggest question is whether or not your board is strong enough to make a system like that work.
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 3, 2009 18:47:12 GMT -6
I can see the logic in your process. I think you summed it up in the final sentence, Can the board make a system work? Whats you take on board members that are active coaches seated on the board? Conflict of interest?
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 3, 2009 19:15:34 GMT -6
I can see the logic in your process. I think you summed it up in the final sentence, Can the board make a system work? Whats you take on board members that are active coaches seated on the board? Conflict of interest? I think it's potentially a conflict of interest in that particular situation (running the draft), but in general I don't think it's a big deal. Heck, I was on our board for nine years (including 2 as president) and I coached the whole time (except for one of the years as president) and I don't recall ever being in a conflict of interest situation because of it. When I was president there were a couple of times that I recused myself from voting on a particular topic because it involved my team or something like that, but that was about it. The problem comes when coaches try to get on the board (or get their cronies on the board) specifically to push their own team's agenda rather than to help the overall program. That kind of selfish, political gamesmanship has severely hampered and crippled many a program.
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Post by gameface on Mar 3, 2009 21:30:19 GMT -6
Our league is set up on the boundaries of the local high schools. I know that each district (27-30?) drafts there teams different. the way we did it the last two years is each team had X number of freeze picks. these kids could be a coaches son or a kid that played for them the previous year. for example 6 skill players and one x player (line man weight restriction). If there were coaches that didn't have a team the previous year and didn't have the 6 skill and one X like the other teams they would select them at that time. if there were teams that didn't have a full 6 skill and one X then they would go in draft order until caught up to the other teams. We would draft all the remaining X players until they were gone. then we would move on to the skill kids and pick until the all the kids are gone. There are a couple of things that happen in our league as well. We have an A division and a super B division and the remaining teams are called B teams. The A team is selected first no one but the Head coaches kids can be protected or froze. after the A team is chosen then we can freeze our players as explained earlier. The super B does get a head start on the other B teams. They usually get 2 more skill players and one more X man to start the draft. then we go in order until the kids are all picked. It seems to be fair. I like it because I feel I do well in my evaluation of the kids. I can't believe some of the kids that are taken early in the draft? We have two days out of pads and three days in pads to evaluate them.
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 4, 2009 9:08:36 GMT -6
Thats nice to be able to eval your players on multiple days. Currently I get 1hr to eval 75-100kids. no pads, just raw data like 40, vertical, etc. maybe a chance to see a few kids throw and catch.
Look at this, We try to do a true draft, 1st, 2nd rd etc. I notice each example given so far allows for freezing of players but do you as a coach have to declare the round you'll take them in. Ex. my kid will be frozen to keep him on my team yet he's no stud, I'll declare him last pick if possible, Yet my new asst HC son will have to be frozen but he was a 1st rd pick last seaon, he's a stud in training so I'm certain he'll be declared 1st rd this season. Anyone not having to go thru a process like this? Meaning your son is a stud and you still get a 1st rd pick?
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Post by gameface on Mar 4, 2009 11:07:20 GMT -6
We freeze them up front. so for example if I have 3 teams to pick. we have already set up how many can be froze at 6 skill and one X or lineman. say team one has all 6 and the 1 X. the next team only has 4 skill and one X man. the 3rd team is a new coach and only has his boy and a assistant coach's kid so 2 skill and no X. the way we do it is he would get the next X so now all three teams have at least one. from there on out we would go in order to pick the rest of the lineman. when that is done because he only has 2 skill (his son and the assistant coaches kid) he would pick again until he caught up to team 2 they only have 4 skill. so at that point they go in order till they all have 6 or an equal amount. from there on out it just goes in order till all the kids are picked. Clear as Mud?
We are required to go two days with out pads more of a clinic type setting for the kids. then the last three days we have assistants running drills so the HC can evaluate the kids. then after the 5th day we have the draft. It is a good thing we have so many kids in our district it is mass chaos. We will have over a 1000 kids this year (so they say) we as a 10 year old division last year had 161 kids= 23 kids per team= 10 play min Kick off and return don't count as actual plays, with a running clock. It only stops in the last 2 min of the 2nd and 4th qtr. It was difficult to get the kids in some times in tight games. I think some of the refs were shaving time on us. So I started carrying a stop watch and made sure they knew I had it and that seemed to help. Good luck on your draft
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 4, 2009 11:23:00 GMT -6
Ouch a running clock, field time a issue? I get your draft process, unfortunately we're not using the closed draft yet, it's being talked about. We currently use the Open, Throw all the kids back into the hat except for coach's kids, and spend about 1-2hrs drafting kids. last season the 10-11 coaches spent about 4hrs due to large group and broad talent. I think I could agree on either style of draft, I just know parents complain and it's their dollars that keep the league going so board members give or find it hard to enforce rules. Seems each season all rules change based on what kids are still in the program. Hard to let a family of 4 boys exit the program to go play lacross because parents want the right to select a coach or a father/coach demands his kid to be declared in lower rd to save a 1st rd pick or his kid doesn't play etc etc.
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 4, 2009 11:44:42 GMT -6
rams - it's becoming pretty clear that the problem is with your board. They seriously need to grow some cajones. It is ridiculous to change the draft rules every year. If they won't get their act together, you should consider getting on the board yourself to get things done right or consider moving on to another program that is better organized.
I have my opinions on what the best way to handle a draft is, but ultimately is doesn't really matter that much how it's done as long as it's handled fairly and consistently. If I was coming on to that board I would insist that we come up with a system that everyone can live with and then stick to it. The way they stick to it is by passing a resolution (or even a change to the Bylaws if the draft is addressed there) stating that the draft process will be followed without exceptions or changes unless agreed to by a unanimous vote of the board. This allows for changes and/or exceptions for truly extraordinary circumstances, but will put an end to silly exceptions to satisfy crybaby parents. Then, they have to stick to their guns and let a few parents pull their kids from the program. Once that happens, the other parents will see that you mean business and the BS will stop. You're going to continue having problems, though, until your board starts doing their job.
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 4, 2009 11:52:22 GMT -6
You right, boards are an issue, would you believe that there are 5 clubs in the county and only two particpate together, boards are to blame I guess. the other 3 are self contained. It's funny because these kid ultimately play each other once in HS or if you look at the other sports, soccer, baseball, etc not an issue,
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Post by gameface on Mar 4, 2009 12:01:32 GMT -6
I agree with coach Doug. The problem is with the board. I can't imagine the head ache that would be with parents wanting little Billy on a certain team because they like the coach. That doesn't fly in our district.
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 4, 2009 13:35:46 GMT -6
Coach, in our system each team is allowed a maximum of two protected players. The Head Coach and one Asst. Coach's sons can be protected. The Head Coach's son is a 4th round pick and the Asst. Coach's son is a 1st round selection.
Any late signups or kids who do not attend a combine are tossed into a hat to prevent any "games" from being played by parents wanting their kids to play only for certain coaches or on certain teams.
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Post by gameface on Mar 4, 2009 14:33:53 GMT -6
We do the same thing for the kids that don't show at tryouts or sign up late. If they sign up after the draft they go to the next coach in line.
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 4, 2009 14:41:08 GMT -6
cyfl - Your HC son is a 4th round by rule? or based on ability? Thats interesting if it's by rule? I'm relating this method to our last season draft? I can say with certain I would have missed out on the #1 RB in the 8's if I had to take my Asst. HC son 1st which happen to be a last pick in the draft due to ability and first year player. My first pick turned out to be a beast on D. my asst. coaches son, not so much. Not sure I'm feeling that process if it's by rule, what am I missing here?
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Post by scotdaking on Mar 4, 2009 15:05:47 GMT -6
This is helpful. I would not like being an assistant coach for one team and my son playing for another though. That wouldn't go over too well in my household.
Our board won't do a live draft where coaches select the best player available without knowing if that player will be placed on their team based on stats from the little combine we run and what they see and know of players and then selecting their team from a draw from the hat. I recall one author suggesting parents keep their kids out of leagues that don't operate a draft in this fashion. It simply means the league is rigged in favor of coaches with seniority. I think it is wise to caution against leagues that don't use this blind draft.
A problem surfacing now is recruiting. Last year's winning coach is trying to convince the Dad of our 2nd best and 2nd fastest player to join his team. These are 8, 9 and 10 yr olds for goodness sakes. This gets diminished with the blind draft.
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 4, 2009 17:19:38 GMT -6
ramscoach, we tried several years ago to allow the head coaches involved in the draft determine which round the Head Coach's son should be drafted. Unfortunately, this did not work out as we simply couldn't get them to objectively evaluate the player's ability - they always had some other agenda driving their vote such as their like/dislike for the coach, the team's record from the previous season, etc..
We actually mimicked local Little League baseball rules in setting up the 4th round for the Head Coaches son. It does not account for a Head Coach having a "superstar" son, but in a draft that is normally 20 rounds or more, it is still a fairly high draft pick.
Coaches can elect not to protect an Assistant coach's child and may simply opt to draft the player in a more appropriate round. Most coaches choose to select their Asst. Head Coach based primarily on the ability of their son so the rule is appropriate for expending a first round pick if they feel the need to protect a particular player. The key thing is that we do not allow any additional players to be protected which, in our experience, inevitably leads to stacking of teams.
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 4, 2009 17:31:49 GMT -6
scottdaking, although I see nothing wrong with holding a "blind" draft, I also fail to see the necessity for it as long as rules are in place to prevent teams/coaches from "loading up" on the "difference makers" available in your league. I think talent evaluation is part of coaching and that coaches should be allowed to choose the kids they want to coach.
The bottom line for me though is that the system itself, much like what offense or defense you choose to run, is inconsequential as long as the guidelines are clear and that rules are in place to prevent individuals from circumventing the system and trying to unfairly secure talent for their team.
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
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Post by CatsCoach on Mar 5, 2009 10:26:26 GMT -6
Are draft works like this…. First we have about 2 weeks of evaluation. The first week is skills camp the 2nd week is the 1st of practice but no pads and the kid just get put in to groups. For the most part we have 5 teams at each weigh class 1 American, 2 Central and 2 National. The American team is the best kids, Central is kind of the middle of road kids, and National is made up of 1st year kids 2nd year kids.(Not saying that a 1st year kid or 2nd year kid can make Central or American) So the Draft goes like this each head coach can protect up to 4 kids from the previous year(this includes there own son). But, There is no protecting of players from the American team or coach by a Central or National coach. American picks there team first(they pretty much take the best 16 kids). After that the 2 Central coaches alternates picks when they are done the 2 National coach pick from the remaining kids. Hope this makes sense.
Mike
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 5, 2009 12:14:26 GMT -6
Whats the procedure on late registers? Kids that sign up late and miss tryouts and the draft, yet 1st week games have not been played? Whats the best way to place this players?
Ex. Board has received registrations for two new players. Billy is has moved in from out of state, he is a skill player. Tommy is moving into the area the following week but is a Lineman. The team that has next pic in the draft is in need of a Lineman as the other teams are well balanced. Do you
1. Place Billy on this team next in line because they are next and that is how the draft goes? 2. Place Tommy on the team needing a lineman and push Billy to the next team in effort to balance the teams. 3. Draw a team out of a hat to place both players on?
Does the board have an obligation to advise all coaches of all later registers as they come in? or just those on deck for a player?
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 5, 2009 14:54:03 GMT -6
ramsfootball,
After our draft takes place, any late signups are allocated at random (hat picks) to balance the number of kids on each team. This is absolutely necessary to prevent parents from intentionally holding kids out until after the draft in hopes of getting their child on a particular team.
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
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Post by ramsfootball on Mar 6, 2009 8:33:35 GMT -6
So even if it meanings adding more size to a team that doesn't really need it. Get this BS, maybe I'm wrong. After loosing a 9yr old due to medical reason 1st week in, I inquired about lat registers with the board. I was informed that a kid from out of town owuld be in soon and was of lineman weight. I was like cool, I so need an extra player and bigger the better. The next week I'm doind a equipment upgrade for another player and I again inquired if the big kids was a done deal. I was told that another kid local was ready to play and i would get him. Remember 8-9's, they stuck a 14 day old 7yr weighing 55lbs fully padded on my team that had never seen a football. Board left all thsoe details out, I thought about it a for a week and execepted the kid onto the team, did his condition and came to the conclusion that this kid was not ready for contact football. I address the board with my concern to find out that they knew of this and opt'd not to place him with the 6-7's because that divison was full. After a day or two they moved him to the 6-7's but I never got the lineman, he was placed on a team that didn't need him, (they won the ship)
Did I get screwed here? was the selection process for late registers fair?
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Post by scotdaking on Mar 6, 2009 11:18:44 GMT -6
There is some politics going on here that you are unfamiliar with. You won't learn of the particulars until you are recognized as a Veteran coach (One that has been doing it in that league for 8 or more years). Bear in mind, these political favors are extended all the way to the refs. I had a situation of the opponent (won the ship for 3 straight yrs) using an illegal player and pointed out to the ref with evidence and by laws in hand during the game. The ref pointed me to a white bldg off to the right of the concession stand and said I'd have to see a guy in there. I thought why would the league not give the ref the authority to enforce its own rules and by laws. Then it dawned on me. The ref knew who won the ship the last 3 seasons. He was not about to do anything to jeapordize that. Besides, he was meeting the coach for beers later. Travesty.
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 6, 2009 11:41:55 GMT -6
There is some politics going on here that you are unfamiliar with. You won't learn of the particulars until you are recognized as a Veteran coach (One that has been doing it in that league for 8 or more years). Bear in mind, these political favors are extended all the way to the refs. I had a situation of the opponent (won the ship for 3 straight yrs) using an illegal player and pointed out to the ref with evidence and by laws in hand during the game. The ref pointed me to a white bldg off to the right of the concession stand and said I'd have to see a guy in there. I thought why would the league not give the ref the authority to enforce its own rules and by laws. Then it dawned on me. The ref knew who won the ship the last 3 seasons. He was not about to do anything to jeapordize that. Besides, he was meeting the coach for beers later. Travesty. While I don't doubt the veracity of this story (although I do wonder why you would stay involved with this organization if it is true - there are plenty of leagues out there that do things properly), I'm not sure it's appropriate to call out the ref. In general, it is the league's administration's duty to determine the rules by which players will be eligible to participate and then to certify that the players on the field have met those requirements. I don't know of any league anywhere that puts this responsibility on the game officials. The game officials' job is to enforce the rules of play during the game, and that's pretty much it. If I was officiating (and I never had, so take anything I say on the subject with a grain of salt), I would probably do the exact same thing - tell the coach to take it up with his league's administration. Of course, this opens up a whole other conversation - how does your league certifiy it's players? In our league, before each game, every player must be weighed in and their equipment checked by a league commissioner - coaches are not allowed to be anywhere near the vicinity of this process. Each team has a ring of laminated photo ID cards, and at the weigh-in, the league commissioners check the players against those photos. The photo ID cards are only released once the player has submitted all the required paperwork (original birth certificate, report card, proof of residence, signed contract, etc.) before the season begins. Even with all that, some renegade coaches will still try to slip through illegal players. Getting back to the refs, though, once the league commissioners have certified that the players on the field are eligible and legal to play, why would the refs have any reason to question it?
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Post by cyflcoach on Mar 6, 2009 16:53:51 GMT -6
scotdaking,
We do not ask our officials to handle league specific issues, those are to be handled by a board member/officer or by the league rules in place governing situations like that which allow for penalties/forfeits to be imposed for utilizing "illegal" players, etc.
Dave Hartman CYFL Coach
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Post by scotdaking on Mar 27, 2009 8:56:13 GMT -6
Each HC is to hand over its list of MMP's prior to the start of the game. We have a 2nd qtr rule in which all of the MMP's are to play...whole sale substitutions. 2nd qtr comes and I noticed the opponent kept its MLB in the game. I checked the list handed to me by their HC at the beginning of the game and sure enough that MLB is on the MMP list. So I start yelling onto the field they have an illegal player at MLB. The ref ignores me for about 4 plays. he then comes over and points me to the white building. While doing so their HC subs for the MLB. I thought......this is a setup.....why am I in this league?
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 27, 2009 9:43:13 GMT -6
why am I in this league? That's a good question. As soon as you said the HC provides a list of his MPPs, my first thought was "what's to prevent him from just naming his best players as MPPs?" I don't know all the details of how y'all administer this, but on the surface it sounds like just about the stupidest way possible to go about it. From some of the other things you've said about the league and its rules, you might want to seriously consider finding another league. You're in Northern Virginia, right? I know there are plenty of leagues there to choose from.
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Post by jhanawa on Mar 27, 2009 20:25:35 GMT -6
I've been in this for 11 years now at the youth level and I marvel at what people do to cheat, really, its pathetic that people stack their teams to win YOUTH football. We take what shows up and coach them up. Yes, we have a good staff and we field good teams, but we DON'T cheat, we COACH. Maybe that sounds high horsed but I've seen just about everything, there are teams that go to extremes to cheat, such as paying players parents, player "shuttle buses", false addresses, false birth certificates, etc, etc...Really, its pathetic.
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