prossi
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by prossi on Feb 28, 2009 14:39:55 GMT -6
Sometimes I think when I read a post, see a clinic or just talk to another coach I feel they over complicate phrase or terms that should not that difficult to understand. I know with our kids we've found that simplifying phrase makes more sense and speaking to them in lay terms makes more sense. Too much stuff going through their head especially on defense takes away their aggressiveness. I get confused myself listening to The Rover coming downhill to press the alley on the boundary to force or spill with a squat spur. I really think coaches are trying to hard to look like they know what they are doing by saying a bunch of phrase and words. It's like leaving the house and scouring the dictionary for a new word no one ever heard of and inserting it into the conversation. Does anyone else feel like this because at clinics it is increasingly difficult to follow with the barrage of terms and phrase. When I played it was wide and short now its field and boundary, strong weak now it's open closed. Do we really need the complexity? Does it hurt the game? Does any one have time to teach terms as well as everything else. Do you give a quiz on terms to your kids so they understand you. Most of us coach at the HS level we need to remember or audience.
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MaineManiac
Junior Member
What you see depends on what you're looking for.
Posts: 311
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Post by MaineManiac on Feb 28, 2009 16:30:47 GMT -6
I agree - I think it is the need to be innovative or create something new that causes this phenomenon.
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Post by endersgame on Feb 28, 2009 17:39:55 GMT -6
I agree, especially as a young guy looking to get into coaching. Sometimes it's difficult to follow some of the threads on here. But what I think is the real problem are two or more names for the same concept or idea. I can deal with coaches calling their blitz package the "Legion of Doom" (yes, actual name a coach called his package in a Nike clinic book I seen at Borders *rolls eyes*) with their Spurs playing uphill when spilling to the boundary. I just wish coaches could all agree on jargon.
And, slight nitpick- open/closed does not mean strong/weak. Open means there's no TE on the side, and Closed means there is one.
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Post by phantom on Feb 28, 2009 17:47:25 GMT -6
There's a jargon involved in coaching football just as there is with any profession. The answer to your question is this- ask questions. If you don't understand a concept or terminology ask.
If, as a new coach, you find yourself confused join the club. It takes work and time to get good at anything.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 28, 2009 19:04:51 GMT -6
honestly no. I never did like the goofy names given "spur" "bandit" "rover" "hawk" "dragon" "cheetah" "lou" "rob" but terminology is just that , words. WHAT IS IMPORTANT IS LEARNING CONCEPTS as a coach and then putting terminology to those concepts that make sense to you and you can then make sense of it with your kids.
I think most coaches keep things fairly simple. I do think sometimes that "clinic speak" is more of a PRETENDING TO COACH KIDS MUCH BETTER THAN THEY REALLY ARE COACHED and pretending that they can do much more than they reall do.
I mean, we talk about three tech play as if it is a given..but the harsh reality is that we never know when one of our kids is going to decide to defend qb sneak for two hours.
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Post by CoachDaniel on Feb 28, 2009 19:06:43 GMT -6
The more time you spend at it, the more all of these different words mean something. You can be the guy who goes to the clinic because its a chance to get away from the wife and pound beers, or you can sit your butt down in every session and learn, then talk football afterwards (and have a few, of course). After a few clinics, all those fancy words mean something.
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Post by levydisciple on Mar 1, 2009 0:16:52 GMT -6
There's a jargon involved in coaching football just as there is with any profession. True, but an electricians' jargon does not include two or more words for the same thing/idea, as far as I know. An outlet is an outlet, unless you're the electrician from the episode of Seinfeld where George is trying to get that Frogger machine- in which case it is "the holes." ; ) For example, many coaches have different definitions of Cover 4. Or quarters. Or four-deep. Or.... Coaches always want to attach these "cool" and different names to a variety of things, even when the concept is the same. I doubt coaches will ever agree on a set jargon, and I realize coaches often name things based on how they first learned them (meaning no one's gonna wanna conform to a set jargon for the entire profession), but I'm just saying... sometimes it's just stupid. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Mar 1, 2009 7:14:53 GMT -6
yeah but some electricians put outlets in one way while another puts them in "upside down" and then blames the other guy for doing it upside down. Same thing with light switches.
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Post by wingtol on Mar 1, 2009 8:22:29 GMT -6
This is what I hate:
Coach at clinic: So when we see a bandit look with a walked up alley to gap player showing a tiger look we have our TE make a banjo call and that lets the tackle know that he needs to use a tunnel technique to shuffle set the stick dig move of the defensive lineman then the te can leave the emlos and block the bandit.
Me: So your TE makes a call and blocks the man outside him instead of double teaming with the tackle?
Clinic coach: Yes exactly.
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Post by chadp56 on Mar 1, 2009 8:37:52 GMT -6
When coaches use terms that are pretty standard than that is the type of jargon we should all learn. When they use terms they made up and forget that we didn't study their playbook, then that is annoying. A couple years ago, I was listening to a New York Jets assistant coach with some of my staff. A guy asked a question that I don't remember. His response was "we would just Salley that." We now use that phrase to be a smart arses. I have no idea what he was saying, the only "Salley" I have ever heard of was a Wing-T play, and he wasn't talking about that.
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Post by phantom on Mar 1, 2009 11:32:19 GMT -6
When coaches use terms that are pretty standard than that is the type of jargon we should all learn. When they use terms they made up and forget that we didn't study their playbook, then that is annoying. A couple years ago, I was listening to a New York Jets assistant coach with some of my staff. A guy asked a question that I don't remember. His response was "we would just Salley that." We now use that phrase to be a smart arses. I have no idea what he was saying, the only "Salley" I have ever heard of was a Wing-T play, and he wasn't talking about that. Did you ask him what he meant? |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 1, 2009 12:04:47 GMT -6
Sometimes I think when I read a post, see a clinic or just talk to another coach I feel they over complicate phrase or terms that should not that difficult to understand. I know with our kids we've found that simplifying phrase makes more sense and speaking to them in lay terms makes more sense. Too much stuff going through their head especially on defense takes away their aggressiveness. I get confused myself listening to The Rover coming downhill to press the alley on the boundary to force or spill with a squat spur. I really think coaches are trying to hard to look like they know what they are doing by saying a bunch of phrase and words. It's like leaving the house and scouring the dictionary for a new word no one ever heard of and inserting it into the conversation. Does anyone else feel like this because at clinics it is increasingly difficult to follow with the barrage of terms and phrase. When I played it was wide and short now its field and boundary, strong weak now it's open closed. Do we really need the complexity? This is true but far from unique to coaching. There are fields that have jargon but at least it doesn't change, and then there are fields with jargon that unfortunately does have fashions, and coaching is unfortunately in that category. I complain about it in all of the latter category, not just coaching. Sometimes egos get bound up in words. |
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prossi
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by prossi on Mar 1, 2009 12:31:54 GMT -6
if we are having problems following how on earth are we going to get the kids to understand. I do understand the open /closed concept relating to the te side. I have worked hard on trying to educate myself on coachuspeak but i try to really dumb it down for our kids so that can react. and think less on defense. On the same note as a new staff years ago on a punt during the first game on shank we all yelled different things ice, poison,bomb peter, and hot they all meant the same thing get your arse away from the ball. On this point if you have ever heard Jon Gruden wired for sound and heard him call a play it sound like a thesaurus exploded.
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Post by phantom on Mar 1, 2009 13:15:08 GMT -6
if we are having problems following how on earth are we going to get the kids to understand. I do understand the open /closed concept relating to the te side. I have worked hard on trying to educate myself on coachuspeak but i try to really dumb it down for our kids so that can react. and think less on defense. On the same note as a new staff years ago on a punt during the first game on shank we all yelled different things ice, poison,bomb peter, and hot they all meant the same thing get your arse away from the ball. On this point if you have ever heard Jon Gruden wired for sound and heard him call a play it sound like a thesaurus exploded. Yeah, and that's why you'd be crazy to take a Gruden play and use his terminology. You never take something from a clinic and transplant it word for word into your system. You have to make it fit your system. When I pick up something that I think we can use I spend a lot of time trying to fit it into what we do. We take their concept, translate it into our terminology, then try to marry it to something that we already do. Sometimes we can't and have to shelf something that we like because we just can't make it fit. The speaker gave you some info. It's your job to fit it into your system. |
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Post by khalfie on Mar 1, 2009 13:48:06 GMT -6
Let me see if I understand you gentlemen correctly... Speakers are using terminology you aren't familiar with, and that upsets you? Or, speakers are using terminology you do understand, but since they didn't say it the way you like it... that's upsetting you? Either way, it seems, YOU, have the problem. Point being, you can only control you... why would learning new ways to define something similar be a problem? A major flaw with most coaches is they only have one way of teaching / communicating, and sometimes it takes a different voice to get your point across. I, for one, am a fan of the colorful language. Been coaching for 12 years, tickles me to death to hear coaches try to redefine ancient concepts. Every once in a while, I hear a better way to convey old ideas. My kids were big fans of MOFO... it reminded them of cursing, but more importantly communicated an even coverage... woila... problem solved. Call it, what ever you need to call it... to get the kids to understrand it.. For this reason, we call our unbalanced Tackle, the Power Tackle, backside / shortside Guard, is our Speed Guard... same positions as everyone else... but we recognize the power in names, and more importantly the naming.  |
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 1, 2009 13:57:35 GMT -6
This is what I hate: Coach at clinic: So when we see a bandit look with a walked up alley to gap player showing a tiger look we have our TE make a banjo call and that lets the tackle know that he needs to use a tunnel technique to shuffle set the stick dig move of the defensive lineman then the te can leave the emlos and block the bandit. Me: So your TE makes a call and blocks the man outside him instead of double teaming with the tackle? Clinic coach: Yes exactly. Exactly. I can deal with generic jargon (wide side/short side, Field/boundary) and multiple terms describing the same thing (jet, fly, express, reach, flash are all terms I have heard to describe someone off the line of scrimmage sprinting as fast as he can and getting a handoff in stride) It is embarrassing to the profession, however, to have someone use SPECIFIC jargon and not recognize it as such and explain such as in the Sally example above. |
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Post by chadp56 on Mar 1, 2009 15:56:41 GMT -6
When coaches use terms that are pretty standard than that is the type of jargon we should all learn. When they use terms they made up and forget that we didn't study their playbook, then that is annoying. A couple years ago, I was listening to a New York Jets assistant coach with some of my staff. A guy asked a question that I don't remember. His response was "we would just Salley that." We now use that phrase to be a smart arses. I have no idea what he was saying, the only "Salley" I have ever heard of was a Wing-T play, and he wasn't talking about that. Did you ask him what he meant? I didn't. His lecture was filled with a lot of this type of jargon. This was right at the end of the lecture. While I got a little out of it, I didn't want to prolong my misery by asking him questions. Atleast we still get a laugh out of it from time to time, which is more than I can say about a few guys I've heard speak. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 1, 2009 16:01:39 GMT -6
Speakers are using terminology you aren't familiar with, and that upsets you? Or, speakers are using terminology you do understand, but since they didn't say it the way you like it... that's upsetting you? Either way, it seems, YOU, have the problem. We have a problem, all right, but it needn't exist but for needless proliferation of terms, which is an annoyance, and changing meanings of existing terms, which is much worse. I hate it in medicine, but as long as we're talking football.... What is a "direct" snap? That term, or "snapped directly to..." has been in use since 1910 at the latest, and it's always been confusing and usually superfluous. Just say who or whose position or where the ball is being snapped to. The ball can never be snapped indirectly, the rules don't allow that, unless you have in mind some freakish procedure I've never heard of where you snap it to one back and he patty-cakes it to someone else. If you want to specify a snap's being handed or thrown, call it a "handed snap" or a "thrown snap" -- or "tossed" if "thrown" looks too much like a fast ball. I'm not just nit-picking with that one; I've heard coaches and announcers say a player was getting a direct snap and one meant one thing and another meant the opposite by it. Positions in the offensive backfield have retained geometric names that are often no longer appropriate. If you want to continue to use "quarterback", "halfback", "fullback", and/or "tailback", and if you want me to picture the formation, then they'd better be in order of increasing depth. Adopt functional names for the positions that don't fit, like "dive back", "blocking back", "running back", if you don't want to give a misimpression of their positions. Invent new ones as necessary, such as "passing back". "Wide receiver" is fine when we don't need to know whether the player is on the line or off it, but not when we do. Don't refer to putting a tight end in motion unless you really mean it's illegal motion (except in Canadian football) by a player on the line; if someone whose roster entry says "tight end" is somewhere else at the moment, don't confuse the issue by invoking where he useta wuz. How is it that positions on defense were re-rationalized 60 yrs. ago or so when it was clear they were getting scrambled from their old geometric names, yet so little progress in that regard has been made w.r.t. the offense? It's as with all terminology -- invent & maintain distinctions where necessary, not where unnecessary. Why does there need to be a separate word, "stemming" for when the defense is shifting? Or is there something about that term I'm missing? |
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Post by phantom on Mar 1, 2009 16:20:26 GMT -6
This is what I hate: Coach at clinic: So when we see a bandit look with a walked up alley to gap player showing a tiger look we have our TE make a banjo call and that lets the tackle know that he needs to use a tunnel technique to shuffle set the stick dig move of the defensive lineman then the te can leave the emlos and block the bandit. Me: So your TE makes a call and blocks the man outside him instead of double teaming with the tackle? Clinic coach: Yes exactly. Exactly. I can deal with generic jargon (wide side/short side, Field/boundary) and multiple terms describing the same thing (jet, fly, express, reach, flash are all terms I have heard to describe someone off the line of scrimmage sprinting as fast as he can and getting a handoff in stride) It is embarrassing to the profession, however, to have someone use SPECIFIC jargon and not recognize it as such and explain such as in the Sally example above. I heven't seen it happen very often and when it does they've almost always explained themselves. |
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Post by jgordon1 on Mar 1, 2009 16:46:57 GMT -6
Well all I can say is thank God we aren't in the financial industry. CDO's, derivatives, default swaps..... the people that invented the words don't even know what they mean
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Post by justryn2 on Mar 1, 2009 17:08:51 GMT -6
When you go to a clinic, aren't you there to learn something new? Sometimes using different words to describe the same concept puts that concept in a new light. Even with my players I might use different words to describe a concept because different people are going to understand it different ways. Yes, there is jargon in every facet of life but even in just plain old English there are a lot of different words that mean basically the same thing.
Take what works for you; ask when you don't understand and keep learning as much as you can.
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Post by coach4life on Mar 1, 2009 18:04:13 GMT -6
Sometimes I think when I read a post, see a clinic or just talk to another coach I feel they over complicate phrase or terms that should not that difficult to understand. I know with our kids we've found that simplifying phrase makes more sense and speaking to them in lay terms makes more sense. My personal favorite: Leverage. What does that mean? To an OL, it's one thing, to a DB, it's several. Let's take the DB as an example: - "Get inside leverage." - "Sink your hips to get leverage on a tackle." - "Maintain leverage on a Fade by riding the receiver." That's 3 different concepts (and associated techniques) with the same word applied. The difference is the context in which the word is applied, and in this case we're only talking about DB play. I played in HS and college and I never really knew what leverage meant until I coached. It simply means "position of advantage". I tell my kids "If you ever hear a coach say leverage, just substitute the words 'position of advantage' and you will know what they are asking for.". In every profession there is a language which emerges to roll up concepts into a singular phrase or word. This simplifies and speeds up communication assuming the folks we are communicating with get it. In a clinic, any coach who takes his art seriously will think, man, I'm not sure what that was, I've got to some work to do to figure it out. However if we just parrot the same lingo back to the kids they will nod their heads in the affirmative, all the while asking themselves "What?!?. Ok, you're the coach, whatever you say." It doesn't matter what we know, what matters is what the person we are speaking to knows. In the case of a clinic, yeah, it's a shortcut and if you as a coach don't get it it's up to you to get up speed. In the case of a player you are coaching, if he (or she in other sports) doesn't get it, that's on you. Never assume that buzz phrase you throw out is something they will understand. Wingtol's example described it well. Cut through the jargon that we use, express it in a way your kids will understand, coach 'em up, and trust them to get it done. They will if they are clear on what you are saying. Therein lies the golden key to effective coaching. |
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Post by phantom on Mar 1, 2009 18:47:35 GMT -6
Sometimes I think when I read a post, see a clinic or just talk to another coach I feel they over complicate phrase or terms that should not that difficult to understand. I know with our kids we've found that simplifying phrase makes more sense and speaking to them in lay terms makes more sense. My personal favorite: Leverage. What does that mean? To an OL, it's one thing, to a DB, it's several. Let's take the DB as an example: - "Get inside leverage." - "Sink your hips to get leverage on a tackle." - "Maintain leverage on a Fade by riding the receiver." That's 3 different concepts (and associated techniques) with the same word applied. The difference is the context in which the word is applied, and in this case we're only talking about DB play. I played in HS and college and I never really knew what leverage meant until I coached. It simply means "position of advantage". I tell my kids "If you ever hear a coach say leverage, just substitute the words 'position of advantage' and you will know what they are asking for.". In every profession there is a language which emerges to roll up concepts into a singular phrase or word. This simplifies and speeds up communication assuming the folks we are communicating with get it. In a clinic, any coach who takes his art seriously will think, man, I'm not sure what that was, I've got to some work to do to figure it out. However if we just parrot the same lingo back to the kids they will nod their heads in the affirmative, all the while asking themselves "What?!?. Ok, you're the coach, whatever you say." It doesn't matter what we know, what matters is what the person we are speaking to knows. In the case of a clinic, yeah, it's a shortcut and if you as a coach don't get it it's up to you to get up speed. In the case of a player you are coaching, if he (or she in other sports) doesn't get it, that's on you. Never assume that buzz phrase you throw out is something they will understand. Wingtol's example described it well. Cut through the jargon that we use, express it in a way your kids will understand, coach 'em up, and trust them to get it done. They will if they are clear on what you are saying. Therein lies the golden key to effective coaching. This is why I'm arguing. Complaining about proprietary terms like "stab the dobber" is one thing. "Leverage" is a common football term. |
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Post by wingtol on Mar 1, 2009 19:22:14 GMT -6
I think, at least personally for me anyways, is the problem with the "coach speak" is when coaches try and use all kinds of fancy words and terminology to describe something very simple because well they want it to sound very complicated and important. That is my whole take on it. I have sat in clinics where a coach rambles on for 5 minutes using all kinds of big words and what not and they put the film on and the TE out blocks instead of double teaming with the OT. I have nothing wrong with everyone having their own terminology for their offense and defense, it's just the "buzz" words that some guys use to sound like they are the smartest guy in the room that gets to me.
It's like people who work in the big corporate world they always have these stupid buzz words to try and sound more important...MY plate is really full right now I'm not sure I can stuff that all in my bowl till I empty my dishwasher...Just say I am really busy and can't do that right now, maybe later!
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Post by red2slam on Mar 2, 2009 9:20:32 GMT -6
Bottom line is that some you just want it easy...
Sounds like the kids I deal with.
The jargon is what makes this game so cool. Just learn it and enjoy.
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prossi
Sophomore Member
Posts: 108
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Post by prossi on Mar 2, 2009 10:35:05 GMT -6
Wingtol yo hit it right on the head.
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Post by gunrun on Mar 2, 2009 11:05:50 GMT -6
I like the playbooks that take the time to put together a glossary at the beginning so I can follow what is going on. Just like a good teacher, it is important to take the time to explain a few important terms before beginning the lesson. I guess some of these clinic coaches are in a hurry.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Mar 2, 2009 11:10:39 GMT -6
Kills me when a guy says he can teach you his whole defense is 40 minutes. And 10 minutes are used with him telling jokes.
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Post by CoachDaniel on Mar 2, 2009 11:37:04 GMT -6
I always appreciate it when someone is asking a question in a clinic and attempts to use the same terms as the speaker, rather than saying "Well we'd call it this..." It shows some respect for the guy standing up there, that you're really trying to learn from him.
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Post by wingtol on Mar 4, 2009 6:15:54 GMT -6
Bottom line is that some you just want it easy... Sounds like the kids I deal with. The jargon is what makes this game so cool. Just learn it and enjoy. I am not saying I want it easy. As I have stated, and think the people who agree with me will second this, is why over complicate something just to over complicate it. And this has nothing to do with the terminology in playbooks or anything like that . |
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