|
|
Post by utchuckd on Feb 22, 2009 9:14:47 GMT -6
|
|
kakavian
Sophomore Member
Where's the ball, boy? Find the ball.
Posts: 175
|
Post by kakavian on Feb 22, 2009 9:27:25 GMT -6
Hmmm...
Maybe, just MAYBE the NFL should start looking at recruiting some Spread Offense OC's. Might even bring up the ratings for the NFL which have been falling of late. If that's the talent pool, perhaps those guys should look to adjust for what you are getting rather than bemoan the fact that no one runs the WCO anymore in College except friggin USC and Notre Dame.
|
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Feb 22, 2009 10:21:45 GMT -6
Well I would have to say that the NFL has taken the parts of the spread that will work at their level and used it. Passing concepts have been used in the NFL that are spread type concepts and also there are lots of one back running styles in the NFL. I would have to say the reaesons that the spread is not the spread in the NFL would be the talent of the defense where match ups are harder to get and also I would doubt you will see the spread QB run game come to the NFL anytime soon due to the huge commitments pro teams make to their QB's. There are aspects of the spread in the NFL but I wouldn't hold your breath on seeing a complete spread style attack in the NFL any time soon.
|
|
|
|
Post by knight9299 on Feb 22, 2009 11:10:36 GMT -6
With free agency and the 'What have you done for me lately' thought process OCs and DCs can't/won't put in schemes that stray too far outside the norm. Coaches don't get 2 or 3 years to watch their players progress in their system. This is why I'd rather watch college ball. You get such diversity in schemes.
|
|
|
|
Post by airman on Feb 22, 2009 20:00:18 GMT -6
this from a league where the offensive family tree which has only one branch.
|
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 22, 2009 20:56:37 GMT -6
Hmmm... Maybe, just MAYBE the NFL should start looking at recruiting some Spread Offense OC's. Might even bring up the ratings for the NFL which have been falling of late. If that's the talent pool, perhaps those guys should look to adjust for what you are getting rather than bemoan the fact that no one runs the WCO anymore in College except friggin USC and Notre Dame. 1. Bring up the ratings? The Super Bowl just set a record for viewership. The NFL doesn't need any help in that department. 2. In another post there was talk about greater diversity in college football. If the NFL can't find QBs who haven't run the spread maybe there's not much diversity in D. 1 either. |
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Feb 22, 2009 22:24:43 GMT -6
Well...if it's in Sports Illustrated, it MUST be true!  |
|
coachbigelow
Junior Member
Coach at Southern Virginia University
Posts: 261
|
Post by coachbigelow on Feb 22, 2009 22:28:22 GMT -6
The SI curse!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 6:29:06 GMT -6
Dammit the NFL doesnt get it. PFFT!
|
|
|
|
Post by coryell2009 on Feb 23, 2009 7:31:01 GMT -6
this from a league where the offensive family tree which has only one branch. Are you serious? The NFL has far more than one 'coaching tree', by the way I hate that term. Which 'tree' are you talking about? The Bill Walsh tree? Which is in itself a branch off the Paul Brown tree. Or are you talking about the Coryell followers who are followers of the Sid Gillman tree. The NFL still has a bunch of Run and Shooters, who may not run the true Shoot anymore but the concepts are everywhere. This is the league where they quite simply to quote a coach this weekend: "Run what works. You don't get 2-3 seasons to install a package unless you are winning now." The Colts run plenty of concepts, but do you really want a $100 million dollar QB taking the hits that come from a zone read option? No. The reason the Dolphins ran the Wildcat so much is they have one of the more versatile players in Ronnie Brown and they don't have a $100 million dollar QB to kill their cap if when you line him outside the DB where to take out his knees. It's highly unlikely but it could happen. The spread is great at the high school and college level of football. But to these guys it's a limiting factor in judging these guys merits. Ask yourself you had to pick from 4 Engineering candidates: 1 went to MIT, 1 went to Texas Tech and 2 took online classes from Generic Online University. Let's also assume they all have the same work experience....I guess you would pass over the MIT guy for the Online University guy. These clubs run all types of schemes and it is their responsibility to find the best guy for them. I've gone all the way around the moon...but the end result is the league is right. Pro-Style offense schools should recruit as hard as they can on this notion. I mean look at VY's career (I feel dsqa awakening) but he was one of the best zone read QB's ever. Tim Tebow is not as much a question to me because of his phenomenal work ethic. Wherever this kid is drafted he'll succeed. |
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 23, 2009 8:44:16 GMT -6
Did some of you guys even read the article?
Nobody criticized the spread. They said that it makes it harder to evaluate talent.
|
|
|
|
Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 9:02:04 GMT -6
I wonder how long it will take before some school gets back under center and uses it as a recruiting tool....
|
|
|
|
Post by coryell2009 on Feb 23, 2009 9:26:24 GMT -6
Did some of you guys even read the article? Nobody criticized the spread. They said that it makes it harder to evaluate talent. Sorry didn't mean to demean the spread. I'm currently coaching in the system. In making it harder to evaluate talent, I was simply wondering if it was impacting the drafting of players in this system. |
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Feb 23, 2009 9:32:43 GMT -6
I wonder how long it will take before some school gets back under center and uses it as a recruiting tool.... I would argue Ohio State already has.......  I think that sentiment is rampant in college football. The true STUDS (those with their eyes on NFL stardom) will pick the pro-style scheme to prep them for the League. This, ultimately, becomes an advantage for spread teams (from Johnson to Leach to Meyer). Your QB is apt to stick around, when he realizes his draft stock isn't as high as the pro style guys. Pat White and Tim Tebow are excellent examples. The benefit is something rarely seen in today's college game: a 5th year senior that's a true STAR. You think Tebow could probably call and run the offense himself by now? I do. |
|
|
|
Post by red2slam on Feb 23, 2009 9:44:35 GMT -6
I would sort of disagree.....I dont think and hope pryor doesnt think two years will guarantee him being the #1 pick....Cause it wont. I would also that if you have lesser talent than a Pryor or a the Kid at Oklahoma, going to a school that runs their offense from under center Actually increases their value in the NFL Draft as opposed to the kid from Tech or Tebow or any of the others.
|
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Feb 23, 2009 10:09:34 GMT -6
After watching way to much of the combine on TV this week...the main thing they are saying is that it makes it harder for the NFL guys to evaluate QB's since they are not under center and taking 3-5-7 drops from under center which are vital to an NFL pass game. Also they mentioned it is harder to evaluate some RB's since they aren't getting down hill all the time in the run game, they are crossing the qb's face and not taking the hand off's from an under center QB and running down hill. No one was bashing the Spread just saying it makes their job's a bit tougher when watching film on prospects.
|
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 23, 2009 11:25:23 GMT -6
Did some of you guys even read the article? Nobody criticized the spread. They said that it makes it harder to evaluate talent. Sorry didn't mean to demean the spread. I'm currently coaching in the system. In making it harder to evaluate talent, I was simply wondering if it was impacting the drafting of players in this system. I didn't mean you. I'm not a spread guy. From some of the comments I've seen, though, it seemed like they developed their opinions about the article based on the title of the original post and maybe the summary at the top of the SI article (and I wonder if the guy who wrote the summary read the article, either) |
|
|
|
Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 23, 2009 15:24:48 GMT -6
The thing is, pretty much every NFL team runs some form of spread passing attack as their base offense. You rarely see an NFL team line up with a true FB anymore. Usually they base out of 3 WRs with an H-back now, subbing in a 2nd TE or a 4th WR depending on situation. I also see a lot more shotgun in the NFL lately for the same reason that Texas Tech and other college passing teams run it. Just look at the Saints with Drew Brees! How is that NOT "the shotgun spread?"
I guess what's really at the heart of this is what you saw years ago when the Run and Shoot and wishbone were popular. The skills showcased in those offenses, especially at QB, rarely translated well to the pro-style, Paul Brown-descended NFL offenses. Now people are taking the option and running it from the shotgun with 3 and 4 WR to open things up for the zone read. That's all. This is not a new story.
|
|
|
|
Post by Coach JR on Feb 23, 2009 16:35:36 GMT -6
Maybe this is a stupid question, but isn't it football whether you're under center in the I, or spread out 4 or 5 wide? If a WR can run routes and catch balls...then isn't the only evaluation to be done at the next level to see if he has the things you can't really coach like size, speed, and head for the game? Were his numbers inflated due to inferior competition, or because he was better than the best? Was a good QB's numbers inflated because he ran a spread offense where they screened and hit short stuff a lot with RAC, or can he actually make all the throws? Seems to me that some players coming out of college might have some "inflated numbers" due to scheme, or lack of competition...but don't they pay NFL scouts good money to weed out these guys? Or do they get confused, when they see all the big numbers, but then find out the kid can't really run 4.4 but runs 4.7, is 5-11 180 instead of his listed 6-2 200, or he can't throw that 15 yard out route or the deep post?
|
|
|
|
Post by phantom on Feb 23, 2009 17:01:23 GMT -6
Maybe this is a stupid question, but isn't it football whether you're under center in the I, or spread out 4 or 5 wide? If a WR can run routes and catch balls...then isn't the only evaluation to be done at the next level to see if he has the things you can't really coach like size, speed, and head for the game? Were his numbers inflated due to inferior competition, or because he was better than the best? Was a good QB's numbers inflated because he ran a spread offense where they screened and hit short stuff a lot with RAC, or can he actually make all the throws? Seems to me that some players coming out of college might have some "inflated numbers" due to scheme, or lack of competition...but don't they pay NFL scouts good money to weed out these guys? Or do they get confused, when they see all the big numbers, but then find out the kid can't really run 4.4 but runs 4.7, is 5-11 180 instead of his listed 6-2 200, or he can't throw that 15 yard out route or the deep post? It has nothing to do with stats. NFL personnel people don't care about stats. It has to do with technique. For WRs it's no big deal but spread QBs never take an under-center snap and take a conventional drop. |
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Feb 23, 2009 19:25:02 GMT -6
It's definitely true if your tackle has never put his hand on the ground, which is something he will be asked to do in the NFL.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Feb 23, 2009 23:10:55 GMT -6
I wonder how long it will take before some school gets back under center and uses it as a recruiting tool.... Ever notice the QB's that have been getting drafted in the first round of the draft? Most are under center QB's. Aaron Rodgers, Brady Quinn, Anyone from USC, Jay Cutler. the ones that have been drafted from Primarily shotgun systems haven't done well in the NFL ie. Byron Leftwich, Alex Smith, vince Young, Grossman, Roethlisberger is the one who came from a gun system and has done well. This isn't to say these guys weren't good QB's in college, they were just coached to play their system and they did it well. maybe it was harder to evaluate them because of that. If you think about it, it makes sense. Its hard to evaluate WR's who are spread type players because they don't get pressed a whole lot. Its hard to evaluate a RB coming from a gun read offense becasue they don't always run downhill due to stretch blocking schemes. I personally wasn't sure how steve slaton would do in the pros becasue he ran sideways so much at WVU I wasn't sure he knew how to get up field quickly, Good thing I'm not an NFL GM cuz he proved me wrong. just my two cents. |
|
|
|
Post by olinecoach61 on Feb 24, 2009 6:57:26 GMT -6
The thing is, pretty much every NFL team runs some form of spread passing attack as their base offense. You rarely see an NFL team line up with a true FB anymore. Usually they base out of 3 WRs with an H-back now, subbing in a 2nd TE or a 4th WR depending on situation. I also see a lot more shotgun in the NFL lately for the same reason that Texas Tech and other college passing teams run it. Just look at the Saints with Drew Brees! How is that NOT "the shotgun spread?" If you listen to most NFL talent guys they'll tell you that there is a lack of qualified fullback candidates. That's why teams have gone to H backs. Teams that can find a Richardson, Deon Anderson, or the beast out of WVU use them. Fullbacks are not being developed because so many schools have gone to spread systems. |
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Feb 24, 2009 7:00:41 GMT -6
You see a lot of guys converted to fullback in NFL because in college they take and put that guy that would be a fullback at linebacker or D-line. the packers starting fullback Korey Hall was a LB at Boise State.
|
|
|
|
Post by dhooper on Feb 24, 2009 8:35:40 GMT -6
I agree with a lot of you the spread does get away from using a true full back. Now they become tight ends if they can catch. But taller. It effects QB if they never take a snap some and linemen But look at the receivers the spread produces.
I would like to see Leach couch a NFL team,
|
|
|
|
Post by coachjblair on Feb 24, 2009 9:53:34 GMT -6
I wonder if this hurts spread teams in recruiting. Due to the fact teams can say they are not getting the pro training in the spread.
|
|
|
|
Post by red2slam on Feb 24, 2009 10:08:54 GMT -6
JB,
That is my curiosity and some what theory to the death of the spread and or shotgun.......Eventuallly somebody is go to under center and use it as a recruiting tool. USC has done that to a certain exstent......but.....we'll see.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachjblair on Feb 24, 2009 11:13:00 GMT -6
Isn't that one of the main reasons Nebraska went away from the triple option.
|
|
|
|
Post by red2slam on Feb 24, 2009 11:15:55 GMT -6
Nebraska would be fine if they had a coach who could pull it off, but finding the right guy is a hard deal.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 24, 2009 17:20:14 GMT -6
I thought the reason Nebraska went away from the triple option was because their AD thought it was "outdated" and fired Frank Solich for only going 10-3 to hire Bill Callahan and install the WCO. It turned into a huge disaster.
As for teams using being under center and the whole "pro-style offense" angle as a recruiting tool, I know USC does it and Lane Kiffin has started doing that at Tennessee. That's been a tactic for some time.
The thing is that many HS recruits don't really understand what the NFL looks for. They get full of their own hype and figure "well I'm big, strong, and fast, so if I go here I'll put up big numbers and be a superstar in college, then the NFL teams will be lining up." These are 18 and 19 year old kids, whose frame of reference for this stuff isn't very extensive or good.
It's the same mentality that contributes to so many of them flunking out of school and staying in trouble off the field. They believe their value comes from their raw athletic ability and not their preparation for the pros or even college. That's why a lot of them will brag about running 4.4 and bust their tails year round to get .01 faster in it, but have no desire to learn how to block or even stay eligible. You can't really blame them for it. If a young guy's got the workout numbers and looks like a football player, somebody's always going to think he must be one.
|
|
