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Post by airman on Feb 19, 2009 17:10:15 GMT -6
Student Expectations Seen as Causing Grade Disputes Sign In to E-Mail Print ShareClose LinkedinDiggFacebookMixxMy SpaceYahoo! BuzzPermalinkBy MAX ROOSEVELT Published: February 17, 2009 Prof. Marshall Grossman has come to expect complaints whenever he returns graded papers in his English classes at the University of Maryland. Skip to next paragraph Enlarge This Image Monica Almeida/The New York Times Prof. Ellen Greenberger studied what she found to be an increased sense of entitlement among college students. “Many students come in with the conviction that they’ve worked hard and deserve a higher mark,” Professor Grossman said. “Some assert that they have never gotten a grade as low as this before.” He attributes those complaints to his students’ sense of entitlement. “I tell my classes that if they just do what they are supposed to do and meet the standard requirements, that they will earn a C,” he said. “That is the default grade. They see the default grade as an A.” A recent study by researchers at the University of California, Irvine, found that a third of students surveyed said that they expected B’s just for attending lectures, and 40 percent said they deserved a B for completing the required reading. “I noticed an increased sense of entitlement in my students and wanted to discover what was causing it,” said Ellen Greenberger, the lead author of the study, called “Self-Entitled College Students: Contributions of Personality, Parenting, and Motivational Factors,” which appeared last year in The Journal of Youth and Adolescence. Professor Greenberger said that the sense of entitlement could be related to increased parental pressure, competition among peers and family members and a heightened sense of achievement anxiety. Aaron M. Brower, the vice provost for teaching and learning at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, offered another theory. “I think that it stems from their K-12 experiences,” Professor Brower said. “They have become ultra-efficient in test preparation. And this hyper-efficiency has led them to look for a magic formula to get high scores.” James Hogge, associate dean of the Peabody School of Education at Vanderbilt University, said: “Students often confuse the level of effort with the quality of work. There is a mentality in students that ‘if I work hard, I deserve a high grade.’ “ In line with Dean Hogge’s observation are Professor Greenberger’s test results. Nearly two-thirds of the students surveyed said that if they explained to a professor that they were trying hard, that should be taken into account in their grade. Jason Greenwood, a senior kinesiology major at the University of Maryland echoed that view. “I think putting in a lot of effort should merit a high grade,” Mr. Greenwood said. “What else is there really than the effort that you put in?” “If you put in all the effort you have and get a C, what is the point?” he added. “If someone goes to every class and reads every chapter in the book and does everything the teacher asks of them and more, then they should be getting an A like their effort deserves. If your maximum effort can only be average in a teacher’s mind, then something is wrong.” Sarah Kinn, a junior English major at the University of Vermont, agreed, saying, “I feel that if I do all of the readings and attend class regularly that I should be able to achieve a grade of at least a B.” At Vanderbilt, there is an emphasis on what Dean Hogge calls “the locus of control.” The goal is to put the academic burden on the student. “Instead of getting an A, they make an A,” he said. “Similarly, if they make a lesser grade, it is not the teacher’s fault. Attributing the outcome of a failure to someone else is a common problem.” Additionally, Dean Hogge said, “professors often try to outline the ‘rules of the game’ in their syllabi,” in an effort to curb haggling over grades. Professor Brower said professors at Wisconsin emphasized that students must “read for knowledge and write with the goal of exploring ideas.” This informal mission statement, along with special seminars for freshmen, is intended to help “re-teach students about what education is.” The seminars are integrated into introductory courses. Examples include the conventional, like a global-warming seminar, and the more obscure, like physics in religion. The seminars “are meant to help students think differently about their classes and connect them to real life,” Professor Brower said. He said that if students developed a genuine interest in their field, grades would take a back seat, and holistic and intrinsically motivated learning could take place. “College students want to be part of a different and better world, but they don’t know how,” he said. “Unless teachers are very intentional with our goals, we play into the system in place.” Next Article in Education (3 of 21) » A version of this article appeared in print on February 18, 2009, on page A15 of the New York edition. Click here to enjoy the convenience of home delivery of The Times for less than $1 a day. Ads by Google what's this? Insight High School of WI Online Public High School in the WI Area; Class Variety & Free Tuition. www.InsightWI.net Online Psychology College 100% online psychology college. Start on your degree today! www.APUS.edu/Psychology Degree online Convert Your Life Experience Into An Online Degree. Start Today. directdegreeedu.com Past Coverage REPORT; Judgment Day (September 21, 2008) WELL; College's High Cost, Before You Even Apply (April 29, 2008) NOTEBOOK; My Son the Number (April 20, 2008) STRATEGY; STRATEGY ADMISSIONS TESTING (April |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 19, 2009 18:26:29 GMT -6
The system in this country has placed the education burden squarely on the teachers' shoulders. We, as teachers, are, hypothetically, responsible the 100% of a child's education; we no longer expect children to put effort towards learning. Kids expect to be "taught" without taking on an individual responsibilty of "learning"
Some curriculum models turn classrooms into nothing more than an entertainment environment with some education value tied in. Kids expect to show up, be plugged in, and have material piped into them without doing any work for themselves. Don't get me wrong, I understand the need for an engaging and educationally diverse environment, but there are times when the students just need to put in some work without being spoon fed.
I had a meeting once with a student, his folks, his teachers and the councelor to discuss the kids terrible grades. In my health class, he had completed 5 out of 12 daily assignments, failed to complete a project, failed to complete a test review, earned a shiny 40% average on a test, refused to the take test home and correct it for extra credit and refused to participate in class discussions. The student wasn't learning disabled and didn't have any behavioral disorders; he just refused to be a part of the class and, as such, was paying the price for it.
We were called into the meeting to "figure out what was causing his low scores" and find a solution. None of the solutions actually involved him doing his darn work; it was all about how we could "accomodate" him.
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Post by redandwhite on Feb 19, 2009 21:14:31 GMT -6
“Students often confuse the level of effort with the quality of work. There is a mentality in students that ‘if I work hard, I deserve a high grade.’ “
Obviously, we deal with this issue all the time in football. We have kids who work incredibly hard, but just are not very talented. You would love to be able to get them more PT, but you just can't. 95% of the time, these kids are great "program players" and understand where they fit in, and cause few, if any problems. Their parents, on the other hand, are a completely different story. I really believe that athletics are one of the last places that young people have to deal with a "meritocracy" - and although work ethic and attitude are of course important, the number one attribute that decides playing time is talent. There is little or no sense of this concept for almost all students and parents when it comes to academics - hard work alone, even with little insight, should automatically translate into high grades in their minds.
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Post by aztec on Feb 19, 2009 23:05:45 GMT -6
Funny. I just talked to one of my explayers at U of Arizona not playing ball, a student. His grades are higher than what he got in High School. Really made me proud of his hard work. I find too many students move on to party and not make a better life for themselves. We are in an affluent area with a huge sense of entitlement.
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Post by saintrad on Feb 19, 2009 23:30:08 GMT -6
do you have a link to the article?
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 19, 2009 23:49:33 GMT -6
We live in the second richest large county in America. Talk about entitlement. we had 2 players kicked off the team because they got caught in a car w/ pot. both starters both good players and not bad kids. well, family #1 is OUTRAGED that their son was not all conference. Our HC, under pressure, put the kid up. not one coach in the conferenc evoted for him. HC is taking a ton of chit because he derailed him bla blah. now the mom has the audacity to ask/demand the that HC create and send out 20 hilites tapes and wants the HC to write a letter. HC says he will send tapes but no letter except ht and wt etc. these parents actually think that a letter from the HC will actually help w/ a scholly. Ok it gets better, just yesterday, the day after wrestling season is over parent #2 has a meeting w/ the principal stating that he is going to sue the school. the wife is a school volunteer! What they hope to gain from a lawsuit is beyond me. as I said we have many rich families so sometimes money trumps brains. I am so lucky I do not teach AP classes because every now and again one of those kids sneak into my class. I literally tell them that they may only ask 5 questions in class or for any assignment. talk about whiners
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Post by brophy on Feb 20, 2009 7:05:15 GMT -6
oh, great , another "kids suck" / "parents suck" thread. Awesome
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 20, 2009 7:47:20 GMT -6
oh, great , another "kids suck" / "parents suck" thread. Awesome Good point Brophy |
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Post by coryell15 on Feb 20, 2009 8:10:46 GMT -6
oh, great , another "kids suck" / "parents suck" thread. Awesome While agreeing I was also going to point out that expecting children to be more responsible than the society raising them is a bit daft. There are plenty of good students who are being malserved by the current curricula as much as students who think that getting up brushing their teeth and placing their fourth point of contact in your seat should merit an insta-b and actually turning in a cogent paper should be an auto A. I've always felt that cultivating the people who still push themselves and reach is a more winning scenario than lamenting the people who self-regulate themselves to the rear of the pack by their mental schema. |
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Post by bigm0073 on Feb 20, 2009 10:27:00 GMT -6
Maybe it is me but I do not think you can compare what goes on in a classroom with football... They have to go to school, they do not have to play football..
We as football coaches have the ability to demand more out of our players. We can push them physically, psychologically and also emotionally. Along the way some kids may fail but that is the price people pay to be successful.
For me personally (I teach World History, Government...) my approach to the classroom is much different than how I approach football. In class I do not demand too much (I can not because I have such a wide range of students) I basically water what we do down enough so most everyone can pass. Not good I know but this is what the schools want.
In football I am MUCH more demanding and I push much harder. I also obviously see better results. Yes I guess this is another example of how kids are not motivated and parents... But in football I do not encounter this in my programs. I will not allow it.
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Post by robinhood on Feb 20, 2009 10:46:10 GMT -6
We reap what we sow.
How many times have you heard, or even said, "You need to work hard in school, so you can get a good job and have a good life." or something to that effect? There is nothing in there about learning or achieving, only hard work will produce a good job. By good job we mean one which pays well.
Our society has made it all about getting paid, not learning how to live or serving others or advancing society. There is no job called "getting paid", but that is what we have conditioned our children to achieve.
Quality work is what we want, but, most of the time, that is not well articulated to the students
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Post by coachcb on Feb 20, 2009 10:59:00 GMT -6
oh, great , another "kids suck" / "parents suck" thread. Awesome If thread pertaining to an article that discusses one of the negative effects of the current American education system isn't fair game on this board, then what is? This is a subject that is impacting everyone within the U.S. school system; coaches included. It's not about "kids suck/parents suck", it's about what is going on in the schools. Kids are learning that "showing up" is the name of the game; attendance=excellence. As some one pointed out; you can't blame the kids, it's just a part of their reality now. Granted, you never want to tell a kid that hard work doesn't count, but hard work without a product of some quality isn't a good thing either. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2009 15:06:51 GMT -6
oh, great , another "kids suck" / "parents suck" thread. Awesome I'm guessing that Brophy is being sarcastic and not seriously lamenting the fact that such a thread is on the board. It is a legitimate discussion and a valid point brought up by the article and those who posted in response to it. |
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 20, 2009 16:15:10 GMT -6
Who are the best people you know at solving problems and getting things done?
Football coaches.
So, let's come up with a ten point plan to fix this problem. Allow me to submit the first suggestion:
#1 - Significantly reduce the amount of testing that our students and teachers must endure. Our eigth graders spend a full three weeks testing during the year and at least another two weeks taking practice tests, and it was worse than that at my previous school. Teachers are not allowed to teach anything that isn't directly related to the test objectives and are unfairly judged on how well their students perform. The students' entire educational experience during the eighth grade is to prepare for tests that have no consequences for them. And it is, to one degree or another, the same in other grades. Teachers with no passion, unmotivated students, mediocrity, a general state of apathy.
I pass the torch on...
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Post by coachcb on Feb 20, 2009 16:42:42 GMT -6
#2 Re-evaluate the current use of Individual Education Portfolios (IEPs) These used to be a very useful tools for kids who are struggling in school. IEPS used to be a tool, now they can be used as a crutch.
In my case above, you have a student who is perfectly capable but hasn't done anything all semster and now they want an IEP. The IEP never addresses the fact that the student doesn't put forth any effort and, instead, focuses on how "his needs aren't being met". Instead of holding a student accountable for their action (or lack thereof), we tell him he can now take as many school hours as he wants to complete a health test. A health test that took everyone else a half an hour to complete. A health test that he could have taken and corrected for half credit, but didn't want to bother.
To make matters worse, we are taking time, effort and money away from the kids that really do need the IEPs; high school kids who are reading at a 4th grade level, middle school kids who struggle with basic arithmetic, etc...
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Post by indian1 on Feb 20, 2009 19:46:07 GMT -6
Football is a way better learning environment than a classroom. Classrooms have been so bastardized and watered down by politics its pathetic.
I tell people all the time that I learned a hell of a lot more playing college football than I did in any classroom. Football is exacting. There is no place to hide when you don't know whats going on, no extra credit to turn in after you screwed up, and when your assignment is due, its due. Turning in late work won't stop the other team from scoring.
School should be that way but its not.
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Post by los on Feb 20, 2009 20:44:05 GMT -6
I'm not a teacher and normally wouldn't respond to a thread like this, but... DCohio...why in the world would someone go to the trouble of doing 15 homework assignments and then "not" turn them in....but just leave them in the notebook??? This baffles me, lol.....if you're not gonna turn the work in.....you know you'll get a zero for it....why not "just be a complete slacker and not even do the work", lol.....my logical mechanic brain cannot compute this scenario....please explain further, lol
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 21, 2009 9:31:41 GMT -6
I'm not a teacher and normally wouldn't respond to a thread like this, but... DCohio...why in the world would someone go to the trouble of doing 15 homework assignments and then "not" turn them in....but just leave them in the notebook??? This baffles me, lol.....if you're not gonna turn the work in.....you know you'll get a zero for it....why not "just be a complete slacker and not even do the work", lol.....my logical mechanic brain cannot compute this scenario....please explain further, lol Same thing happens to me all the time. Who knows what goes through their heads. There is research out there stating that boys brains aren't fully developed until they are at LEAST 19. I truly believe it |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 21, 2009 10:20:33 GMT -6
I had a nice little job in college, proof-reading people's papers.
Now, I proof read a lot of papers that just had basic typos and some understandable spelling errors.. But, I also read my fair share of just absolutely terrible papers... Misspelling every other word, paragraphs that were one, long run-on sentence, injecting the word "like" into every sentence (We, like, did this experiment), etc, etc...
There was one girl who graduated from the local high school's (2000+ students) "college preparatory" program with high marks. She brought a paper to me and just couldn't understand why she recieved a D on it ("I turned it in, I should've at least gotten a C or B on it").
She had capitalized EVERY SINGLE NOUN in the paper, including pronouns, along with all kinds of other errors... Basically, a girl who had graduated from a college preparatory program with honors, in one of the largest schools in the state,was writing at an elementary school level.
I assume she was knowledgable in other areas, as I don't know how she could've made it into college otherwise, but I was still amazed. I don't know how a student got through 4 years of high school without knowing WHICH NOUNS ARE CAPITALIZED...
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Post by brophy on Feb 21, 2009 11:24:24 GMT -6
Who are the best people you know at solving problems and getting things done? Football coaches. So, let's come up with a ten point plan to fix this problem. Allow me to submit the first suggestion: #1 - Significantly reduce the amount of testing that our students and teachers must endure. I pass the torch on... way to go, coach.... Not being a teacher, what would it take to empower the classroom teacher with their own authority to cultivate their own environment without enabling self-interested slackers(clock-watching teacher) and ensure retained information (or the nurturing the ability to think for oneself)? The one thing I detest (and my sarcastic comment was about) was the never-ceasing serve-the-teacher mentality we have in this country, and I didn't think I could read yet ANOTHER finger-pointing (unproductive) bitch-session about how bad 'we' have it in the classroom. Leading isn't easy, I don't know why we expect teaching to be. |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 21, 2009 12:04:46 GMT -6
I don't feel that teaching is a bad job; if I did, I wouldn't be a teacher. I agree with NCLB holding teachers more accountable for their jobs in the classroom. But, how to do we determine how much responsibility it still left to the students?
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Post by bigm0073 on Feb 21, 2009 12:19:32 GMT -6
I take a different angle than both of you....
With state accountability and having to water down the curriculum so all kids succeed I feel I am not able to challenge my classes the way I would want to. If I push too hard and have a few kids fail than the administration looks at me and wonders what am I doing wrong....
SO I pull up and I do not give daily homework and now I accept late work and now kids make up work two weeks later... All of a sudden my grades are inflated but the expectation has lowered. That is the frustration for many teachers. And yes it is the parents who are the blame. They are the ones who go to the school board and complain and make the school board create policies like no zeroes, accept late work....
I would agree that many do wonderful job but others (I especially look at the parents in the 45 - 55 year old range) they seem to be the biggest enablers.
Coaches, imagine if you had to make practice, conditioning and lifting so easy and so unassuming that everyone could do it and nobody would fail.... Imagine if you could not discipline a kid or hold the accountable for missing practice.... What kind of product do you think you would have on the football field???
Is it no wonder why we are failing in many school systems...
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Post by los on Feb 21, 2009 20:15:46 GMT -6
Thanks for the explanation, dcohio.....guess you all see all kinds of irrational stuff in the classroom....enjoyed the auto storys, hilarious stuff, lol.....you know, you might be on to something here.....I think the automotive manufacturers may also be a part of this "entitlement" problem we have in this country.....everything is "too easy" for todays drivers, lol.....you can start the car from inside the warm house, let it warm up good before getting in and sitting on the heated seats, that remember all the adjustments neccessary to give you that "driving around in your recliner feel".......automatic climate control.....power everything at your fingertips......you don't need to know how fast to take off or how to brake in adverse conditions, cause the traction control and anti-lock brakes will do it for you.....heck, you don't even have to know which way your going, or which way is north,south,east or west......the GPS navigation systems will do that for you, lol......only thing left to do nowdays to take the place of "actually driving the vehicle".....is to talk continuously on the cell phone, while the car drives you around....I personally think it must be some kind of commie plot to make all of us sorry, or...it could just be a way to keep jacking up the prices of new cars, by throwing all this great technology at us?.....But we're "entitled" right?.... ;D
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Post by mariner42 on Feb 21, 2009 21:06:01 GMT -6
DC, have you seen Gran Torino yet? Aside from Clint's racism, I'd swear your post is a boiled down version of that movie  |
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burn
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Post by burn on Feb 22, 2009 1:24:07 GMT -6
I have a question for DC Ohio. The girl in question did not turn in her homework so her grade was obviously not good. My question is does homework really matter? If the student gets As on the test, which I do not know if she did, why does homework matter? I always used homework for students to learn the material or to develop their skills. If they can display they know, understand what you want then why does that matter. Much like football if they get it done they play. Football is a bad analogy because of the team concept and holding players accountable but why do we penalize students if they have demonstrated they have learned what we want but they have not done work that does not make a difference? Not a judgement but a question I ponder. We have all had those students that school is easy and they are extremely smart but they do not do their homework. They test great without cheating and they score well on the standardized test. It seems pointless.
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Post by airraider on Feb 22, 2009 9:33:23 GMT -6
I think it all boils down to what it takes to hold them accountable.. In the case of the homework.. why give it if its not going to be worth anything?
Some will say to facilitate the teaching of information.. to be used simply as a means of reinforcing information..
But.. what if only 1 kid in that class cares enough to do the homework?
Bottom line gentlemen.. I teach in a school where a LARGE portion of the students are happy with D level work.. and if they do not reach that D and receive an F.. then so be it..
They do not want to do anything to supplement their learning.. but some will actually do it if it goes towards their grade..
This all goes to rightfully show why our school was up for state take over this year..
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Post by los on Feb 22, 2009 9:33:37 GMT -6
Thats a good point there burn, never thought about it that way.....guess you could relate this to football some?.....replace the homework with = off-season training.....the testing without cheating = practice.....and the standardized test = football game......I've read many threads on here about guys missing off-season training and the repercussions of it.....what if player X, is a good enough athlete, where he can miss 15 "required" homework assignments(off-season training sessions)......but still tests well = can beat out any competition in practice, at his position......and scores well in standardized tests = also wins most of his battles vs the competition during the season (opponents from the other schools you play).....looks like (to me), the reason you'd come down hard on "player or student X"....is not solely for their benefit, but more for the rest of the class/team, who aren't good enough or smart enough, to cut a corner and be as successful......and the perception of favoritism it might show? Again, I'm not a teacher....just guessing?
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 22, 2009 10:05:24 GMT -6
I think it all boils down to what it takes to hold them accountable.. In the case of the homework.. why give it if its not going to be worth anything? Some will say to facilitate the teaching of information.. to be used simply as a means of reinforcing information.. But.. what if only 1 kid in that class cares enough to do the homework? Bottom line gentlemen.. I teach in a school where a LARGE portion of the students are happy with D level work.. and if they do not reach that D and receive an F.. then so be it.. They do not want to do anything to supplement their learning.. but some will actually do it if it goes towards their grade.. This all goes to rightfully show why our school was up for state take over this year.. I am agreeing w/ raider here. IMO, If homework is important then it should be at least entered whether they did it or not. I'm not saying that everything needs to be graded but it's like on the field. You get what you demand. You want an action, teach it and hold them accountable. If I think that the teacher is 50/50 going to collect homework, chit I'm rollin the dice. Someone mentioned well if a student doesn't do thier homework and still gets an A on the test "What's the difference?" Fair question... I would say that yes it does... In real life... yes we really are trying to get these kids ready for the real world...if your boss tells you to do something.. you better do it..now I know we can't fire our students.. but we also can not reward them for work not accomplished. There are many who say that homework..especially in the lower levels of school.. does not help the learning.. I would say that is a conversation for another day. There are many different types of learning that takes place in school. book learning is not at the very top IMHO. Now there are some who will criticize educators in America, ask most people about their kids teacher and they will say they are good. Of course, there are some bad teachers out there, clock watchers as Brophy calls them. This is true of any profession and true of many govt positions. I don't think we will do much about this in our lifetime. The great majority of teachers that I know are in it for the right reasons.. love kids.. and try to do the right thing. another anology you might make is about lawyers. We all hear the mean spirited jokes about lawyers but if the chit hits the fan. you want the best lawyer you can get. I would also like to say that we should be glad we are in America. They don't have these problems in other countries because they just kick them out of school and train them to be factory workers. basically slaves for a govt. industrial complex (wow did i say that) BTW. I also feel that teachers that model ideals that make this country great are the best weapon against racism, poverty etc. One person doing one little bit one day at a time...It adds up |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 22, 2009 10:07:52 GMT -6
Thats a good point there burn, never thought about it that way.....guess you could relate this to football some?.....replace the homework with = off-season training.....the testing without cheating = practice.....and the standardized test = football game......I've read many threads on here about guys missing off-season training and the repercussions of it.....what if player X, is a good enough athlete, where he can miss 15 "required" homework assignments(off-season training sessions)......but still tests well = can beat out any competition in practice, at his position......and scores well in standardized tests = also wins most of his battles vs the competition during the season (opponents from the other schools you play).....looks like (to me), the reason you'd come down hard on "player or student X"....is not solely for their benefit, but more for the rest of the class/team, who aren't good enough or smart enough, to cut a corner and be as successful......and the perception of favoritism it might show? Again, I'm not a teacher....just guessing? And you're else contributing to the sense of entitlement. The player has now learned that quality, hard work doesn't that much merit. To make matters worse, those kids that DID workout all year, have learned the same thing. Now, everytime you preach hard work in the offseason, they can always fall back on the story of Player X when they don't want to lift. |
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Post by los on Feb 22, 2009 10:22:57 GMT -6
It was more of a question, than a comment cb, just askin?.....by the way....I thought the majority of my 5 kids teachers were very good......if they did poorly, it was usually cause "they" were slacking off, not cause the teacher wasn't trying......but wasn't that the original point of the thread.....kids think they deserve a good grade or starting position, cause they did the work or worked hard....so are entitled........then the opposite might be.....a person that doesn't need to work very hard, but is still better or smarter than his peers.....so isn't entitled?
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