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Post by hlb2 on Feb 12, 2009 15:05:57 GMT -6
Coaches,
We are doing well with our offseason weight program up until last week. I have 2 junior-to-be's and 1 senior-to-be who are all 3 good players and potential leaders that have quit lifting with us and are lifting in town at a local gym with a trainer. 1 of the boys family owns the building in which the gym is located. When confronted about the situation they said that it was better than what we had going on at our weightroom as they got more one on one training. I left it at that, but I'm very close to just cutting them loose. We were 0-10 last year for one reason and one reason only, we played as individuals! It was my first season as hc and we cut some dead weight that helped, but it was too late, the damage had been done. Now after a disappointing season we've had fair to good numbers in the weight program and now these guys jump ship. What would you do? I'm very seriously thinking about cutting them as an example to the rest of them. I'm not going to put up with what killed as last season...individuality. Basically put, I feel no one man is greater than the whole, and if he feels that way, then he does not need to be a part of what he feels he's better than. I just wanted to get your opinions on the situation before I did something rash.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 12, 2009 15:17:16 GMT -6
i wouldnt do that...
the point of offseason lifting is to get bigger and stronger. Trust me it is a headache trying to get my kids into the weightroom too, but if i had kids who were really working out hard somewhere else i wouldnt complain. Maybe try to talk them into coming some days for some teamwork type stuff. But if they are getting their lifts in then i wouldnt cut them
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Post by Wingtman on Feb 12, 2009 15:19:43 GMT -6
Its been talked about here many times before, and I think this is a good solution:
Your lifting on your own? Great, Im glad. HOWEVER, you need to be here, in OUR weight room too, just like everyone else.
Do you have a set number of times required to be in the weight room? If they arent in yours, it doesnt count
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Post by rideanddecide on Feb 12, 2009 15:24:24 GMT -6
If you're considering cutting the kids you better talk to them first and give them a chance to change their minds. They are kids and many kids don't understand the difference between working out with the team or on their own even if you spell it out for them.
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Post by brophy on Feb 12, 2009 15:27:45 GMT -6
are they meeting attendance requirements you set?
I think we all have to deal with "these types" ("Coach, I am working out at the Y using the '52-Week Football Training Book' because its better than what we're doing"), and on one hand you can't fault them for wanting to get the best environment to train (if they are motivated and want to do a hardcore program and put on size, God bless), but on the other hand, the real point of playing football is for working together and building strong relationships (earn your sweat equity in the weight room).
Do what you have to do, but if they meet your attendance requirements, there may not be enough of an argument to stand on to boot them off.
Maybe ask them WHAT, specifically, they are doing at the other gym (that you aren't doing at your place)? Do they have any legitimate issue?
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Post by poorbob on Feb 12, 2009 15:41:21 GMT -6
You could ask them to bring the trainer to your weight room or ask to meet the trainer to go over training regimen. In my experience (which isn't much), my coaches didn't know the first thing about weight lifting. That is why I worked out with a trainer and the team. The coach saw that I was getting fatigued from working out twice a day in the weight room and told me I could work out at my gym since he knew I was working hard. Imo, and I'm not saying your program doesn't work, but get a REAL weight training program and the kids will go. They want to get big and tough, not just put in a misguided hour or two. Get "Power Training by Caoch Robert Dos Remedios" and you WILL learn the right way to weight train. I have researched a ton of stuff to do with weight training and that book is the single most efficient way to train. MOST IMPORTANTLY, it gives you the right form so you don't do the exercises wrong.
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Post by seagull73 on Feb 12, 2009 15:48:46 GMT -6
i wouldnt do that... the point of offseason lifting is to get bigger and stronger. Trust me it is a headache trying to get my kids into the weightroom too, but if i had kids who were really working out hard somewhere else i wouldnt complain. Maybe try to talk them into coming some days for some teamwork type stuff. But if they are getting their lifts in then i wouldnt cut them I disagree. The point of off-season lifting is to build a team atmosphere & have these kids work through tough workout together. I don't have an answer as to how to handle this situation because it is one I have had to deal with & never found a good solution. I would not get rid of the kids but would address the problem with them face to face. There is no reason they can't do both. Gear your workouts outside of school around what you do in school. Team workout comes first. |
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Post by seagull73 on Feb 12, 2009 15:48:47 GMT -6
i wouldnt do that... the point of offseason lifting is to get bigger and stronger. Trust me it is a headache trying to get my kids into the weightroom too, but if i had kids who were really working out hard somewhere else i wouldnt complain. Maybe try to talk them into coming some days for some teamwork type stuff. But if they are getting their lifts in then i wouldnt cut them I disagree. The point of off-season lifting is to build a team atmosphere & have these kids work through tough workout together. I don't have an answer as to how to handle this situation because it is one I have had to deal with & never found a good solution. I would not get rid of the kids but would address the problem with them face to face. There is no reason they can't do both. Gear your workouts outside of school around what you do in school. Team workout comes first. |
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 12, 2009 15:50:04 GMT -6
Well, for one thing, they aren't leaders anymore... Hey, some guys on this board are going to say cut them loose and don't look back, and others are going to say don't make a mountain out of a mole hill. But you are the guy on the spot. You know the situation far better than any of us. You set the expectations for your team. Is it time to draw a line in the dirt and make an example out these guys? Is what they are doing a threat to what you are trying to accomplish? Are they hurting the team? Only you really know the answers to those questions. I say trust your own judgement.
Having said that, I will tell you what we do and it may or may not have any value for you. We put the highest importance on attendence in the offseason, but we are not allowed to make it mandatory. So we do every kind of incentive that we can think of to get them here and we do keep attendence and we base our depth chart on that. Sorry, gotta run!
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Post by phantom on Feb 12, 2009 15:56:36 GMT -6
i wouldnt do that... the point of offseason lifting is to get bigger and stronger. Trust me it is a headache trying to get my kids into the weightroom too, but if i had kids who were really working out hard somewhere else i wouldnt complain. Maybe try to talk them into coming some days for some teamwork type stuff. But if they are getting their lifts in then i wouldnt cut them I disagree. I think that the teamwork and mental toughness that comes out of working together in the weight room is at least as important as the physical gains. I don't think I'd cut them but I'd let them know that we expect them at our workouts. |
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Post by hlb2 on Feb 12, 2009 15:58:12 GMT -6
Our program is straight out of BFS just to let you know. I guess the kids feel they know better. I will confront them again and let them know this is not the way we are going to do things around here. Thanks all!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2009 16:00:00 GMT -6
Whoa coach you have to put the pride away for a minute, you have to understand there is a chance that the gym they go to offers a better program than your's I'd wait and see the outcome, You may be suprised.
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Post by gpoulin76 on Feb 12, 2009 16:09:39 GMT -6
Coach:
I think the easy thing to do is to cut them loose.
You may need to evaluate your program. One of the principles of a S&C program is the law of individualtiy. Kids need to get one on one attention. Ideally, programs need to meet the demands of individual athletes, not the masses, as every athlete is different. I am sure that they are doing what they feel is in their best interests, unless you believe they are just using this other gym as an excuse to not work hard.
BFS is a cookie cutter program, a one size fits all. They may see greater improvements not using your program. They may be hurting your ego, but hurting your ego is not a reason to cut them. Sometimes these persoanl trainers know more about S&C than football coaches.
The important thing is that they are getting stronger and preparing their bodies for the season. It may not be your way. But I'd be more concerned about the other kids that aren't doing anything to prepare their bodies.
I know of one local high school that has many of their best athletes train at the local gym with personal trainers. They have one a state championship and been in the playoffs 9 out of the past 10 years. Many of those kids go on to play at big time D-I schools.
Perhaps you need to provide extra incentives for the kids to WANT to be their instead of at this local gym. Divide your team into groups. Have them compete with each other. Reward the kids who show up. Make these three kids feel like they are missing out.
Bottom line is that you have to ask yourself "Can these kids help you win?" If they can, you need to work with them. If they are a cancer, you need to cut them loose.
I'd gather more info first by talking to them and their parents, and listen to them before cutting them loose.
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Post by knight9299 on Feb 12, 2009 16:14:13 GMT -6
Whoa coach you have to put the pride away for a minute, you have to understand there is a chance that the gym they go to offers a better program than your's I'd wait and see the outcome, You may be suprised. Very good point. I see a solution. It's out there but you have nothing to lose. Continue to let them work out on their own. BUT in 6-8 weeks they test out in your room with the rest of the team. If they aren't improving at the same rate as the team, then the program they are using is not as good as yours so they need to be in your room. |
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Post by gpoulin76 on Feb 12, 2009 16:22:05 GMT -6
i wouldnt do that... the point of offseason lifting is to get bigger and stronger. Trust me it is a headache trying to get my kids into the weightroom too, but if i had kids who were really working out hard somewhere else i wouldnt complain. Maybe try to talk them into coming some days for some teamwork type stuff. But if they are getting their lifts in then i wouldnt cut them I disagree. The point of off-season lifting is to build a team atmosphere & have these kids work through tough workout together. I don't have an answer as to how to handle this situation because it is one I have had to deal with & never found a good solution. I would not get rid of the kids but would address the problem with them face to face. There is no reason they can't do both. Gear your workouts outside of school around what you do in school. Team workout comes first. No.....the point of an off-season program is to get bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic. Now that of course can be done in a team atmosphere, and promote team. But if you want to soley build a team atmosphere and just be together, have them go to camps and retreats together. Take em on a fishing trip! |
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Post by phantom on Feb 12, 2009 16:41:57 GMT -6
I disagree. The point of off-season lifting is to build a team atmosphere & have these kids work through tough workout together. I don't have an answer as to how to handle this situation because it is one I have had to deal with & never found a good solution. I would not get rid of the kids but would address the problem with them face to face. There is no reason they can't do both. Gear your workouts outside of school around what you do in school. Team workout comes first. No.....the point of an off-season program is to get bigger, stronger, faster, and more athletic. Now that of course can be done in a team atmosphere, and promote team. But if you want to soley build a team atmosphere and just be together, have them go to camps and retreats together. Take em on a fishing trip! I couldn't disagree more. The idea is to build a team. If they want to work out on their own, fine. After we work out as a team. |
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billyn
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Post by billyn on Feb 12, 2009 16:49:00 GMT -6
If the workouts are mandatory, they are mandatory. They can either show up at your team workouts, or they aren't part of the team. I don't care what my guys do when I don't have them, but if I make something mandatory then I'm not making exceptions. Now, if you haven't made showing up at those workouts mandatory, I'd leave it alone. I think it shows a basic lack of trust in you that they are doing this though, and you better get that addressed quickly.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 12, 2009 16:58:16 GMT -6
Sorry I had to bail out on that post. Had a situation I had to deal with. What I was going to add is that here, we aren't allowed to cut them for not showing up in the off-season, but we are allowed to reward them, and I reward with playing time and location on the depth chart. That's an approach you might try. As far as working out on their own, they might as well be at home on the couchwatching Beavis and Butthead, because it don't count.
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Post by wingtol on Feb 12, 2009 17:12:40 GMT -6
Well I don't know about the rest of you but we can not make anything out of season mandatory. We "highly suggest" activities in the off season but if they don't show then guess what...we really can't do anything along the lines of cutting them for not doing an off season activity. I would watch what you do. You might cut them then the parents come screaming into school and make some noise it might affect your program with the school and state association rules concerning "mandatory" off season activity.
I would suggest you set a test day. Tell these kids you want to have them come in and test out on their lifts with the team. Find out if they are lifting. We have had some kids do this in the past and if they test like you-know-what in front of the team that usually gets them back in our weight room pretty quick. If they do fine then let them keep lifting. I know there is the whole team building aspect, but it's not like the weight room is the only place these kids see each other. Now if you have summer workouts or 7-7 and these kids miss that then you start to push them back on the depth charts and all that till they get the msg.
I would just make sure that you don't hold kids accountable for stuff you can't hold them accountable for. (If that makes sense)
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Post by pantherpride91 on Feb 12, 2009 17:15:46 GMT -6
We win as a team
We lose as a team
We work as a team
We sweat as a team
We get better as a team
I know it is the offseason but the weight room is one of the best places to get better in all phases of being a team.
We faced the exact same problem when I got the school I am at now. We were 0-29 previous to our staff getting to the school. Kids wanted to tell us that they had their own workouts that they did which were better than the BFS program. They told us they lifted at the Y because they had better equipment.
We told the kids very simply if you want to be a part of this program you work out here with us. To me it had little to do with wanting them all there because of our ego or we were the only ones that could make these kids stronger, but the kids had to become a team...In our situation it has been working...over the last two years our numbers have climbed and we have not had a losing season....we are actually starting to build a real program
As Phantom said, the mental toughness and teamwork that comes out of lifting together goes a long way. When a freshmen sees your "senior-leader" push himself with all he has on the last two reps of his final set, it means something. When your center and guard push eachother everyday and learn make eachother better, they learn to trust eachother when go to double down on the nose. What we lack in athletes we make up for in trust, teamwork, and togetherness.
We have a points system that we use to determine things like captain, jersey selection, position on depth chart for first day of practice, and equipment selection. If a freshman is number 3 on the points chart than he is third to select his jersey and is number one the first day we do drills and you know what the kids know and respect that
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Post by windigo on Feb 12, 2009 17:22:43 GMT -6
When it comes to the weight room you will have some players that are simply too much of a man-child to train with the rest of the team. I was one of those players. We had two power racks. It was always a problem when I was squatting 6 and the rest of the team was in the 3s if they were lucky. I sought out people who could test me. I got into power lifting. It wasn't that I wasn't a teammate it was simply that my teammates didn't get the best out of me.
What I have found as a coach is that you can’t look to the weight room to build team because of this one reason. If you are doing a good job your players are eventually going to outgrow what you are doing and need more individual attention. They will gravitate towards the hardcore gyms. I make sure that I make my rounds to the gyms in the area from time to time and check up one them.
But for team building I place a larger focus on speed and agility work. This is an area that your best players aren't going to outgrow your program. Do you team building during your speed training.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2009 17:48:04 GMT -6
Whoa coach you have to put the pride away for a minute, you have to understand there is a chance that the gym they go to offers a better program than your's I'd wait and see the outcome, You may be suprised. Very good point. I see a solution. It's out there but you have nothing to lose. Continue to let them work out on their own. BUT in 6-8 weeks they test out in your room with the rest of the team. If they aren't improving at the same rate as the team, then the program they are using is not as good as yours so they need to be in your room. I agree, however I wouldn't force anyone to work out with the team. I understand the team mentailty, as well as anyone, but I strongly suggest not forcing it upon them. If they want to work out on their own, fine ...allow them, if they fail, the test then it's on them. I've found (as well as a few other coaches I know) that if you force kids to do something they resist, and if they feel they are smothered by something, even if it's their own perception, they burn out I think they need that time away from the team as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they shouldn't associate with the team in the off season. |
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Post by phantom on Feb 12, 2009 17:55:49 GMT -6
Very good point. I see a solution. It's out there but you have nothing to lose. Continue to let them work out on their own. BUT in 6-8 weeks they test out in your room with the rest of the team. If they aren't improving at the same rate as the team, then the program they are using is not as good as yours so they need to be in your room. I agree, however I wouldn't force anyone to work out with the team. I understand the team mentailty, as well as anyone, but I strongly suggest not forcing it upon them. If they want to work out on their own, fine ...allow them, if they fail, the test then it's on them. I've found (as well as a few other coaches I know) that if you force kids to do something they resist, and if they feel they are smothered by something, even if it's their own perception, they burn out I think they need that time away from the team as well. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that they shouldn't associate with the team in the off season. Again, I couldn't disagree more. |
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Post by pantherpride91 on Feb 12, 2009 17:57:24 GMT -6
Coach Kell,
What do you tell your freshmen about the weight room expectations when they come into the program?
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Post by hlb2 on Feb 12, 2009 18:52:03 GMT -6
I disagree because I witnessed first hand not playing as a team and it makes me sick to my stomach. I am not concerned with them not working out, they are, I have seen them and they are working very hard. They are getting a better workout where they are, there is no doubt about that. I cannot compete when it is 1 personal trainer to 3 athletes vs. 1 to 2 coaches (I only have 3 plus myself and only 2 on campus) with up to 30 athletes. Their is a greater theme here than them getting stronger. Our program is 12 weeks long, and I cannot make it mandatory, but I don't have to play them, I don't have to issue them equipment either. How much stronger are they going to get really? In my humble and honest opinion, I will trade the 10 more pounds they lift, for them being able to play together better and play as a team. Heck, I'd trade 50 pounds if they'd just play better together and as a unit.
Some of you that are against this seem to have the "what can you do for me mentality" and I think that is the exact opposite of what football is all about. It is not what can I do for you, it is what can I do for everybody on the team. There's a shirt out there that I've seen that in big letters it has TEAM and below it in smaller letters the word me, simply meaning never put yourself above the team and these 3 in my opinion are doing just that. Again, no one is greater than the whole. That is the motto our military lives by, and that my friends is the greatest "team" in the whole world.
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Post by coachsky on Feb 12, 2009 18:57:10 GMT -6
Let me tell you my expereince;
- Per school rules we cannot force them to workout off season
- We are a no cut sport
- Up until last year we had no one on staff that was a qualified S&C coach and the stuff we were doing was loose and outdated.
I got the boosters and HC motivated to raise funds and hire an S&C coach. Younger guy, certified, with a degree, former athlete, still in great shape.
We started tracking attendance, giving out T-shirts, hosting catered get togethers for kids who showed up and made gains. Seniors - were assigned "teams" of underclassmen and the were calling and asking kids to get in there.
We made the weight room a fun place to be. We essentailly double regular atendance, we went from 25-50. Our record went from 4-6 to 9-1. We had 60-70 kids lifting Saturday mornings at 10am, in season.
We had closed the weight room until 1/15 and we have it open 3 days a week, without our trainier. We kickoff our tracked workouts with a trainer on 3/2, five days a week, 4 lifts days - One Drill day. We have over 65 kids who say they will attend regulalry. 12 more after school baseball (we'll see)
Some of our kids have been working at other gyms with other trainers in December through Feb. Some will continue, but 90% will attend at least 2 to 3 days per week. As long as they are their two days and are really doind something else, we don't push it, they wont get to attend our BBQ's and get cool t-shirts.
So here's my expereince:
1. You have to have a good program with someone who can motivate kids. We hired a guy, he's partners at a local training facility. Kids love him and relate to him. In the weight room he's the boss, the rest of the coaches work for him!
2. It's better if kids wanna be there, then forcing them to be there! So I think you have to set up a program that is motivateing that makes kids feel apart of something.
3. Having players, upperclassmen, motivate them, works better than coaches. Also put spressure on your upperclassment to be there.
4. Reward systems work. At least they did for us.
5. If you focus on the kids that will come, the ones that dont find themselves on the outside looking in. In my experience all but a few fall behind and became a non factor anyway. A few don't, but their teammates no where they stand and as coaches we included them, we never mistreat them, but they don't get a lot extra kudos or attention.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2009 19:06:31 GMT -6
I don't coach HS, but I know quite a few. My dad did for years., I assisted with those teams. I think you tell them what you expect, you offer them the weight room, maybe require freshmen to attend. I see alot of kids get into it on their own.
Again there's nothing wrong with requiring them to attemt weightroom sessions, I'm not knocking it, but I've seen alot of kids get real big strong and fast, and before you know it they're sitting up in the stands because they just burned out.
I think the freshman class is an exception, they are young, and might not be used to the weights, After that they're on their own, they can lift, with the team but, it's not mandatory. They are responsible for passing all PT tests. If they fail it's on them, therefore they are held accountable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2009 19:12:04 GMT -6
Let me tell you my expereince; - Per school rules we cannot force them to workout off season - We are a no cut sport - Up until last year we had no one on staff that was a qualified S&C coach and the stuff we were doing was loose and outdated. I got the boosters and HC motivated to raise funds and hire an S&C coach. Younger guy, certified, with a degree, former athlete, still in great shape. We started tracking attendance, giving out T-shirts, hosting catered get togethers for kids who showed up and made gains. Seniors - were assigned "teams" of underclassmen and the were calling and asking kids to get in there. We made the weight room a fun place to be. We essentailly double regular atendance, we went from 25-50. Our record went from 4-6 to 9-1. We had 60-70 kids lifting Saturday mornings at 10am, in season. We had closed the weight room until 1/15 and we have it open 3 days a week, without our trainier. We kickoff our tracked workouts with a trainer on 3/2, five days a week, 4 lifts days - One Drill day. We have over 65 kids who say they will attend regulalry. 12 more after school baseball (we'll see) Some of our kids have been working at other gyms with other trainers in December through Feb. Some will continue, but 90% will attend at least 2 to 3 days per week. As long as they are their two days and are really doind something else, we don't push it, they wont get to attend our BBQ's and get cool t-shirts. So here's my expereince: 1. You have to have a good program with someone who can motivate kids. We hired a guy, he's partners at a local training facility. Kids love him and relate to him. In the weight room he's the boss, the rest of the coaches work for him! 2. It's better if kids wanna be there, then forcing them to be there! So I think you have to set up a program that is motivateing that makes kids feel apart of something. 3. Having players, upperclassmen, motivate them, works better than coaches. Also put spressure on your upperclassment to be there. 4. Reward systems work. At least they did for us. 5. If you focus on the kids that will come, the ones that dont find themselves on the outside looking in. In my experience all but a few fall behind and became a non factor anyway. A few don't, but their teammates no where they stand and as coaches we included them, we never mistreat them, but they don't get a lot extra kudos or attention. I agree completely, if you can make the kids want to be there thats excellent, good job coach. Maybe even throw in a friendly strength cmpetition between the players. |
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SetHut
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Post by SetHut on Feb 12, 2009 20:46:22 GMT -6
hlb2: I've seen this happen before. In my case the "lone rangers" didn't even play the next season but didn't have the guts to tell the coaches. We didn't know it until time for physicals and they didn't show up and when we asked another player he said, "Coach, he told me he wasn't going to play this year." Since you were 0-10 last year they may think you aren't going to be any better next year and have too much ego to deal with it.
To answer your question: I'm in the corner of the coaches with the positive attitude. Don't cut 'em. Make 'em want to be there. Be creative with your workouts and incentives. You've received some excellent ideas from other coaches that I will not repeat here so not to be redundant.
Since it's the off-season and you, technically, can't discipline them now for their behavior just plan to go ahead without them. If they show up. . .fine, but if not, you have a plan to go on without them. Be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot.
If you have 30 guys working hard you will, at least, be more competitive next year on the scoreboard, if not in the win column. (If I was 0-10 I'd lighten my schedule where I could). Your team will see that. . .your fans, parents, and admin will also see that and you will have something to continue building on for '10. You may have to be satisfied with baby steps toward your goals.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 12, 2009 20:49:44 GMT -6
I have noticed that after a few months of basically begging kids to lift and join football that it has become different. Now some are asking me if its ok to join and I can ask them " can you make the commitment, and can you handle the discipline and routine?"
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