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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2009 9:59:02 GMT -6
I'm kind of wearing out on the topic of "level playing field" and I don't mean the field is on a tilt.
Recently one of our assistants was told that our program is successful because it is an unlevel playing field. We have a weightlifting / conditioning class that not everyone in our league has which apparently gives us the edge. We're also the largest school in the state.
I can't buy into that entirely because while we have played in 3 of the past 4 title games, we aren't undefeated in those and the titles in that time were won by one of the smaller schools in our league with no weight training class. Just an amazing work ethic and good players, coaches, and schemes.
Our league is determined by enrollment and those classifications are thus required certain things: number of electives the school offers, level of classes offered, number of administrators, funding, etc. So while I agree that the weight program in one school may be better than another, any school in our league could choose to implement such a plan.
So is there such thing as an uneven field when the opportunity is there?
And what's more to the point, does it even matter?
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Post by poorbob on Feb 3, 2009 10:02:37 GMT -6
You might have better facilities and better players, but so does USC and they lost to oregon St. I just know that on any given night, you still have to execute to win. Just because they don't have a great program doesn't mean it's unfair. That's like saying because you're team is better, the other team should get spotted some points or something. That's just stupid. Keep working hard and don't worry about what naysayers say.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 3, 2009 10:03:12 GMT -6
sure, when I coached jr high football some years we moved up all freshmen while someone else kept all of theirs down. Thats pretty "unlevel" if you ask me.
similarly, in the league where I coach hs football we play some teams that have twice as many students as we have. I think coaching can tilt the field somewhat to level it though when a coach is more prepared than the other.
no it does not matter because parents, fans and even administrators do not take it into account. its a win or else society in most cases. we will have 5 seniors next year while some teams will have 22 seniors or more. will it matter? no, they do not put an asterix next to the standings and say *tdmaker only has 5 seniors nobody cares about that. Its my job to make sure I get more.
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Post by red2slam on Feb 3, 2009 10:06:01 GMT -6
Irish,
By that standard, the teams with the most money, best facilities, best coaches, and best players, hardest working teams in football are winning because they have "more" than the other guy. The fact that one of your coaches would say is FRIGHTENING. This idea that EVERYBODY DESERVES THE SAME REGARDLESS of THEIR INVESTMENT IS LUNACY.
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Post by rideanddecide on Feb 3, 2009 10:14:12 GMT -6
So while I agree that the weight program in one school may be better than another, any school in our league could choose to implement such a plan. And that may be the unlevel playing field. What district's CHOOSE to implement/provide for athletics is not always in the coaches control and can often be a reflection of the importance or lack of importance placed on athletics in the community. |
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coachgeorge51
Sophomore Member
Cliches and mottos is mindless verbal nonsense.
Posts: 151
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Post by coachgeorge51 on Feb 3, 2009 10:19:02 GMT -6
Yea - the Catholic schools.
I don't think their facilities are any better, but come on...............................after all, they have God.
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Post by schultbear74 on Feb 3, 2009 10:27:50 GMT -6
We went to the state finals this year against a school that had everything going for it, smart rich kids, good administrative support, great parents and great coaches. We had a lot less of each of these. We lost the game, but we won much.
Our kids, if they were paying attention, found out that there is only equality of opportunity not equality of condition. It is a good lesson to learn. They could only put eleven guys out on the field at one time- just like us. The question of win and lose is still determined by the people in the arena who are "striving greatly".
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 3, 2009 10:30:50 GMT -6
Sure it's unlevel.
About as unlevel as a
better-coached team [who perform at a high level during organized practices]
playing against
a team run by a bunch of trick-or-treat coaches [who don't know how to run practice nor put in any work!]
But whose fault is that?
You have to keep up with the Jones's - if they have a great booster club that can fund a brand new weight room then maybe we need to look hard at our booster club and question why we don't get that...
If their admin oks conditioning classes then maybe we should pressure ours to do so...
I hate when coaches cop-out about successful programs and claim "cheating", "unfair advantages", and "recruiting"- CAN WE CONTROL THAT? Bottom line is that it's our job to keep up- instead of complaining they need to put some extra effort into things.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 3, 2009 10:32:10 GMT -6
In summary- IRISH...there is a such thing as uneven playing fields, but it's a coach's job to even them up...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2009 10:34:07 GMT -6
Right, it's not always what the coach chooses, and certain decisions (eligibility, etc.) can vary. But there is no need to apologize for using what you have at your disposal. The fact that our coach was told this by someone unfamiliar with our league is what I found funny.
If we went to Pennsylvania or California or Texas or Florida and played a similar team in size and they pounded us we wouldn't want to claim uneven playing field. We may get beat 49-0 but we'd be furious because we would've gone into the game expecting to win.
I think you seriously downgrade the value of ALL KIDS ON ALL TEAMS when you say that one team has nicer things and thus it's an unlevel playing field. Personally I'd rather have all our players out bucking barley or putting up hay bales.
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Post by rideanddecide on Feb 3, 2009 10:36:06 GMT -6
In summary- IRISH...there is a such thing as uneven playing fields, but it's a coach's job to even them up... The fact that the field in unlevel in itself may make it impossible for the coach to level it. If the admin does not want to listen to what the coach is selling there is only so much he can do. A coach can get quotes, secure donations, etc...for facilities, but if the school board won't approve the plan then he is out of luck. A coach can provide all the reasons for why the district should implement an athletics period or other type of class session to benefit athletes, but if the board doesn't want to take away from other courses it isn't happening. Hence, the field is unlevel not because of what you have/don't have, but because of who is making the decisions in the district. |
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Post by k on Feb 3, 2009 10:54:45 GMT -6
I think you guys are combining a lot of things that shouldn't be combined.
School size DOES "Unlevel" the playing field. There is nothing that can be done about it. A coach could bring the same culture to a school of 300 kids or a school of 3000 kids. The difference will be dramatic in the regular quality of athlete that is out on the field.
Public / Private does "unlevel" the playing field. When X Catholic school actively recruits kids with scholarships who get Ds and gives them an "academic scholarship" so that they can play football it creates an unfair advantage. Public schools just can't do that. We can't go to the town next door and convince the kid who will be a 9th grader next year to come to our school.
As to facilities etc that can be changed and while it does unlevel the playing field it can be leveled. The top two can't be.
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Post by coachbdud on Feb 3, 2009 11:01:20 GMT -6
I'm kind of wearing out on the topic of "level playing field" and I don't mean the field is on a tilt. Recently one of our assistants was told that our program is successful because it is an unlevel playing field. We have a weightlifting / conditioning class that not everyone in our league has which apparently gives us the edge. We're also the largest school in the state. I can't buy into that entirely because while we have played in 3 of the past 4 title games, we aren't undefeated in those and the titles in that time were won by one of the smaller schools in our league with no weight training class. Just an amazing work ethic and good players, coaches, and schemes. Our league is determined by enrollment and those classifications are thus required certain things: number of electives the school offers, level of classes offered, number of administrators, funding, etc. So while I agree that the weight program in one school may be better than another, any school in our league could choose to implement such a plan. So is there such thing as an uneven field when the opportunity is there? And what's more to the point, does it even matter? You have to realize it is definitely an advantage. Bigger School- the more kids you have in your school, the higher chance you will have more football players. Say 1 out of every 10 play football... if you have more overall student body and the same percentage plays football, you have more players than a smaller school. I have seen some really bad big schools, and some really good small schools, but in general, the bigger the school the more athletes Weight training/football class- this is huge!... a definite advantage. You dont have to put up with half of the BS that i do because of this class. No kid can use the excuse of being in another sport since your lifting is during class. You dont have to worry about kids not showing up because its their class. In most places you lose the athletes playing another sport, so they cant lift with you, and then attendance is always difficult after school for anyone who just does football. You can also use this class time for film.chalk talk during the season. So im not sure how dramatic it is, but you definitely have an advantage over a school who doesnt have this. You get an extra hour a day with your kids that most schools do not get |
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Post by coachcb on Feb 3, 2009 11:17:40 GMT -6
The state has created a level playing field by allowing the programs within it to run athletic periods. If the other schools choose not to take advantage, then that's their problem.
If a state allows the schools to have contact with the players in the off season and one program gets 100+ kids out for off season workouts and another gets 10, WHO'S FAULT IS THAT? Is it an unlevel playing field then??
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coachgeorge51
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Cliches and mottos is mindless verbal nonsense.
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Post by coachgeorge51 on Feb 3, 2009 12:38:07 GMT -6
I actually love playing the private schools and agree with whitemike52. You still have to beat them to win so there is no use complaining - just deal with it and convince your players you can beat them. But, come on...........................
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Post by nuhusky82 on Feb 3, 2009 15:25:53 GMT -6
Whomever said this to your assistant has no intention of upgrading his school but wants everyone else to downgrade so it will all be "FAIR". This is the PC wussification of our society. Get better or stop complaining. The world is not fair and you might as well accept that and try to get BETTER.
Off the soapbox now. Please return to your regular programming. That is all.
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Post by kcbazooka on Feb 3, 2009 16:04:00 GMT -6
Speaking of unlevel playing fields I was disappointed to find out that this thread wasn't about truly unlevel playing fields.
kinda funny story-- we played a JV game at a place that really did have an unlevel playing field -- Go one way and you were running downhill -- we were playing and had the lead in the fourth quarter and scored a TD -- decided to try an extra point -- set up to kick and we noticed there weren't any goal posts at that end. SO, we go to the other end to kick the PAT. But in doing so we lost the downfield advantage!!! poor planning on my part -- we won despite my coaching...
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 3, 2009 17:23:32 GMT -6
We played in a game and finished with 9 kids on the field. I think that was pretty "unlevel".
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Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 3, 2009 17:26:05 GMT -6
I'm kind of wearing out on the topic of "level playing field" and I don't mean the field is on a tilt. Recently one of our assistants was told that our program is successful because it is an unlevel playing field. We have a weightlifting / conditioning class that not everyone in our league has which apparently gives us the edge. We're also the largest school in the state. I can't buy into that entirely because while we have played in 3 of the past 4 title games, we aren't undefeated in those and the titles in that time were won by one of the smaller schools in our league with no weight training class. Just an amazing work ethic and good players, coaches, and schemes. Our league is determined by enrollment and those classifications are thus required certain things: number of electives the school offers, level of classes offered, number of administrators, funding, etc. So while I agree that the weight program in one school may be better than another, any school in our league could choose to implement such a plan. So is there such thing as an uneven field when the opportunity is there? And what's more to the point, does it even matter? Well, I once played on a field in HS that was so unlevel you couldn't see one sideline from the other ;D Seriously though, your situation I wouldn't say is an "unlevel" field. At least not because of the conditioning program. You are just working harder and smarter than your opponents to win. That's what they should be trying to do too, instead of griping about "unlevel playing fields." Sounds like sheer envy. Will they complain that you being better coaches than they are makes it an "unlevel playing field" too? Now around here, some schools (the handful in the city systems) do have major advantages over the vast majority in the county systems, and it all comes down to money. There are usually 1 or 2 city schools per conference, while the rest are county. It's no coincidence that the city schools *usually* dominate. As I said, it all comes down to money, and the biggest advantage the city schools have are higher salaries for teachers and coaches, which allows them to have more and, at least theoretically, attract the cream of the crop. County schools often have about 5 or 6 total for a 3 level program. The City schools usually have about 15-20. Lots of talented coaches here would rather be JV assistants there than HCs in the county schools because the pay is so much better (usually about $5-10k a year better). Second, these larger programs also benefit from recruiting, which is technically illegal but it happens. Sometimes it's the coaches and administration going under the table to attract superior athletes--a direct violation of the rules that rarely gets punished--while other times it's the alumni network and players themselves doing the recruiting for them. That's not technically illegal, but it makes it very hard for your typical county school with 1,000 students who's struggling to build a program to compete in the same league with the 2,000 student school up the road. Third, the city school systems, as expected, usually have much nicer facilities, equipment, and press exposure than the county schools. I know this isn't that big of a deal when it comes to actually getting the most out of your talent, but it does help pursuade parents that the city schools are noticably better, and therefore worth driving their talented kids 30 minutes into the city and paying $1,000 or so a semester in out-of-district tuition instead of letting them take the bus to the county school right down the road. Other things, like feeder systems, booster organizations, etc. also give the city schools an advantage. It's not impossible for the county systems to get these things organized as well--in fact some do--but it's much harder when you don't have the money, resources, or coaches at your disposal that your competitors do. With the exception of using backdoor recruiting tactics, none of this stuff is wrong. It just makes it tougher for the poor schools to compete with their richer neighbors. |
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Post by wingtol on Feb 3, 2009 18:40:45 GMT -6
I don't know what city you live in there hopeful but I would have to say that is completely the opposite of what goes on in our state for the most part. The city school usually struggle and often have sub par or shared facilities that do not measure up to the schools in the 'burbs and country. Maybe it's true in some states where city schools dominate but I would bet its the schools outside the cities that do the best in most states.
As far as unlevel playing field, I would say sure there are. Look at the 8 million dollar in-door facility Massilon just built. I would say it's unlevel when they are in there practicing while their opponent is out a rain storm trying to get ready. Do facilities equal wins. No. But I am sure they can help you out. It still comes down to the 11 you put on the filed and how well they are prepared to play by you the coaches.
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Post by hsrose on Feb 3, 2009 22:21:39 GMT -6
Unlevel, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Last week at a clinic I listened to a coach from Centennial Corona in LA talk about their practice arrangements. They have a 4th period athletics PE period. It's right before lunch, 5-days a week. During that class they are weight lifting, scouting, walk-thrus, etc. They use lunch sometimes as well. Then they have full practices after school as well. I figure that's an additional 5-7 hours per week that I don't get to have - our school doesn't have an athletics PE class. Other schools around here do have that and they are usually in the top of whatever sport. What could you do if you had an additional 6 hours of practice to prepare your players for a game? Conversely, how do you prepare your team if you know that your opponent has an additional 6 hours to prepare for you?
Our school has been here for 40 years and has produced 2 football players that have gone directly to a D1 school. Several have made it via JuCo, but only 2 directly. We compete with teams that have 2-3-4 or more each season. Is that unlevel, yeah, but nothing I can do about that except coach harder.
The size of the school matters, but the demographics may matter even more. On average, given similar demographics, if I coach at a 1,000 student school, and play a school with 2,000, I would expect that they could easily have 2 QB's for my 1, 4 stud DT's for my 2, 2 guys running 4.6 for my 1, and so on. Unlevel, yeah, but you coach harder, try to find anything you can do to get an advantage.
There's a school here that is the basketball school. If you want to play and get noticed, that is the school you go to. Do they recruit? No, they don't have to, quality always draws quality. They always go very deep in the playoffs. Their front line looks like a JC front court while ours looks like a junior high team. Unlevel, yeah, but you just have to coach as well as you can.
One school near here has a proactive, supportive AD, one who is demanding a lot of his coaches and staffs. He rewards them but they have a healthy emphasis on athletics as part of the high school experience. Our AD just told us that we won't be reimbursed for the clinic we went to because, with the change in head football coach (expected hire: April, yeah, April), he's not sure he wants to invest in us if there's a chance we won't be here. I have the e-mail that says he would reimburse us. While we have to work around things, taking time and energy away from coaching, other staffs are concentrating on coaching and getting better. Unlevel, yeah. But that's the way it is.
Unlevel is a reality and can be found in just about every aspect of whichever competition we're talking about. If every team was equal in every aspect then I would expect every game to be close to a tie.
So, while I can know that our school doesn't have much of a chance to compete with some of these schools, there is honor is doing the best you can against whatever odds, trying to win, playing fair, and competing.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 3, 2009 22:33:48 GMT -6
I don't know what city you live in there hopeful but I would have to say that is completely the opposite of what goes on in our state for the most part. The city school usually struggle and often have sub par or shared facilities that do not measure up to the schools in the 'burbs and country. Maybe it's true in some states where city schools dominate but I would bet its the schools outside the cities that do the best in most states. As far as unlevel playing field, I would say sure there are. Look at the 8 million dollar in-door facility Massilon just built. I would say it's unlevel when they are in there practicing while their opponent is out a rain storm trying to get ready. Do facilities equal wins. No. But I am sure they can help you out. It still comes down to the 11 you put on the filed and how well they are prepared to play by you the coaches. Well, by "city" school, I'm talking about fairly small cities here (pop. of around 25-50,000) that would be considered "suburban" if a major city was nearby. These play against county schools, which would be considered "rural." Consolidation was all the rage around here 25-30 years ago, so these schools are mostly all around the same size. We really only have about 7 "city" high schools in my part of the country, and 5 of them benefit from being the only HS in their respective systems, so you get a higher tax base concentrated into one HS, while the county schools are poor. And to be fair, none of these city schools have won the state in about 20 years. They do, however, always dominate their local competition during the regular season. For examples of pay: a typical beginning assistant in a city school system around here will make around $32K when you account for his stipend. Tack on an extra $3-5k if he coaches another sport, like track or wrestling. A typical starting assistant in a local county school will make around $25k with his stipend (some start as low as $17k). Many county HCs only make around $32k and that's after being in the system for a few years. A HC at one of the city systems would make $45-50k with the same experience and have about 3-4 times the staff to work with. One of these just spent $12 million on this:  That is their plush new fieldhouse that rivals most major universities'. The next year they switched to state of the art artificial turf. They also take their teams to the Sugar Bowl in Atlanta every year, free of charge. Does it help them win on the field? Not directly, but it sure helps them convince parents in the nearby communities to send their promising young athletes there to play sports. Plus, the refs new locker room in that thing is nicer than the penthouse suite at the Four Seasons. Don't tell me that doesn't help 'em get a few breaks on gameday  Now, on the field, these city schools all consistently dominate their leagues. 3 of them are always jockeying for the top 3 spots in their 9 team conference while beating their county bretheren to a pulp. The one who built what's in the pic hasn't won fewer than 7 games in who-knows-how-many-decades is still in the nation's top 10 for all time wins. In other parts of the state near larger cities, such as near Memphis, Knoxville, or Nashville, you see a situation closer to what you describe, wingt. I guess maybe ours is just a unique combination of local factors. I do know that it's odd how talented eight graders and freshmen will always go to one of those big schools before signing Div 1, while their would-be alumni lurch struggle to crack 5-5 and send a kid or two to the NAIA. We don't have "privates" here, so I guess the richer city schools pick up the slack recruiting-wise But yeah... I would say that schools like that DO operate on an unequal playing field compared to their neighbors. However, they shouldn't be pressured to apologise for having it good. I think any coach on here would like to be in a situation like that, but obviously not every administration can afford to provide one regardless of how hard they work at fundraising. |
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Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 3, 2009 22:36:25 GMT -6
That was a great post, ihsrose! I'm going to print that and save it!
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 4, 2009 6:47:37 GMT -6
We are a public school and there are 4 private schools in our district that we have to play.
One of those teams went to the state finals the year before (They beat us 57-0 and never took their starters out),and then they got busted for improper recruiting and had to forfeit their entire season.
The next year they were 0-5 until the week before they played us. We trade films on Saturday. On Monday I read in the paper how they just changed coaches on Sunday and had 22 new players coming out. They were all studs (imagine that!) We lose by 1 point.
The next year they decide to drop football....in May! That leaves us without a game. I'm forced to schedule a powerhouse 2 classifications above us to get to a 10 game schedule.
All the football players from that team go to the other three private schools in our district.
We get trounced by the team that is two classifications above us. During the season, the coaches at the private schools petition the state saying they couldn't find replacement game and the state awards each of them a victory.
On the strength of that victory, two of those teams advance to the state playoffs and we don't.
Unlevel playing field? You can bet your ass it is.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 4, 2009 7:42:51 GMT -6
I know what you're saying dcohio and I agree, but sometimes it's tough to swallow when your kids work so hard to achieve something and then it gets taken away because other schools have more money, influence, and contacts. We should have been third in our region with a playoff birth, but on the basis of a win that the other schools didn't even play a game for, we ended up fifth. If we had been first or second, it wouldn't have been an issue. I'm using that to motivate my kids in the offseason, and I will definately use it next season when we play those teams.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 4, 2009 8:41:48 GMT -6
I know what you're saying dcohio and I agree, but sometimes it's tough to swallow when your kids work so hard to achieve something and then it gets taken away because other schools have more money, influence, and contacts. We should have been third in our region with a playoff birth, but on the basis of a win that the other schools didn't even play a game for, we ended up fifth. If we had been first or second, it wouldn't have been an issue. I'm using that to motivate my kids in the offseason, and I will definately use it next season when we play those teams. There's nothing stopping your program from having those things; you have to go out and get them. Until about ten years ago, our weight room was just a regular classroom. The coaching staff went out and petitioned boosters and did fund raising to get us the money to build a new weight room. Why was this an easy sell to the boosters? Because even with the "poor facilities," the program had still played for 3 state titles in 4 years and won two of them. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2009 9:17:57 GMT -6
I understand the argument that it's hard when your kids work so hard and get beat by a team that just has more of everything. Really I do. But I think our kids this season worked as hard as any group I'd been around and we got beat by a team that had less in facilities, less in a accreditated weight training class, etc. Maybe they had better athletes, maybe they had better coaches than us. Maybe they wanted it more.
What's more, I coached at a school a dozen plus years ago that took 2nd with very little. We backed into the playoffs by good luck as a winless team had to upset a perennial power for us to eek in. We knocked off the #1 undefeated team on our way to the championship game, and lost then. I'd dare say we had nothing. At the time we had about 1,000 less kids in the school than the biggest school, had to walk 4 blocks to practice, and had 4 fulltime varsity coaches. We also played all 4 DL both ways, played 3 LBs both ways, and 2 DBs.
And I'm still mad we lost that championship game NOT because we had less but because we didn't win.
You can't control what everyone else does. Make use of what you have. I would dare say our kids back then got a heck of a lot more out of losing that championship game then the other team did winning it. Don't we always say it's about the journey?
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Post by coachcb on Feb 4, 2009 12:58:16 GMT -6
Personally, I love to hear people talk about any "unlevel playing field" or "unfair advantage" because it means that they already have an excuse. Before they even walk into a season, they don't think that they can compete, that attitude passes on down to the kids and makes it a whole lot easier to stomp them.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 4, 2009 17:03:07 GMT -6
Each one of us is a culmination of a vast number of experiences that are reflected in our judgements and opinions. The playing field can be made uneven in many ways, and some of those ways are come by honestly, and some are not. Speaking out when you or your kids are being treated unfairly is part of your responsability as a coach and as a man, and it's not the same thing as making excuses for failure. dcohio, in another thread you said that you made a kid who didn't finish the season move away from the team at the banquet. Why? because it wasn't fair to the ones who had finished. You spoke out when you saw something that wasn't fair. You love your boys and you are going to do everything in your power to see that they get treated fairly. I'm no different. No, life's not fair, but fairness matters.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 4, 2009 17:14:35 GMT -6
Dcohio and coachcb, those were good posts. And you're right... it's not what you have. It's what you DO with what you have. I think most of us are just discussing the general state of inequalities here. Life is unfair. We should acknowledge that and make the most of the opportunities we have, because that's all anyone can do.
That said, I do get annoyed when coaches at schools with every advantage in the world try to act like they're geniuses and condescend to coaches who have to do a lot more on their own. It's that attitude that rubs me the wrong way, not their success or advantages.
My proudest moment as a player was beating that "rich" school I discussed in my previous post during my freshman year. I had a sack on the final drive to seal the win. Beating an opponent like that, who came in with so much hype and so much handed to them--a couple of talented players from our MSs were even recruited to that team--all that just made it even sweeter.
Snce it was just freshman ball no one really cares or remembers except for me and my teammates, but you can bet after growing up constantly hearing people talk smack about how much "better" that school and team was in every way, that win means a heck of a lot more emotionally than any of the ones we got in my varsity years. Those varsity wins included the first 2 playoff appearances in school history and knocking off the #4 team in the state on their homefield.
Just over the state line from my house are a bunch of very poor, blue collar, rural schools in VA who always beat the crap out of much wealthier and talented ones come playoff time. Usually 1 or 2 get to play in their respective title games about every year. It is what you make of it. You can either use a disadvantage as an excuse or as motivation.
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