Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2009 20:39:31 GMT -6
So anyone have trouble dealing with the whole "last guy with the chalk wins" thing? To me it's like paper beats rock, rock beats scissor, scissor beats paper, but nuclear bomb beats them all. . .then some guy pulls out "but cockroach survives nuclear bomb."
We've had guys like this on staff and it just absolutely kills any discussion or chance for improvement. But inevitably the last guy with the chalk gets to win. Fortunately for me I'm the coordinator so I get to have it last if I want it.
Anyone else face this dilemma and admit there's issues? Any of you guys routinely the last guy with the chalk?
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Post by airraider on Feb 2, 2009 20:58:38 GMT -6
All defenses give up something..
and nearly all offensive plays are "designed" to score every play..
but.. the things that always screw it all up.. the kids..
That chalk dont miss too much practice.. get sick.. get a girlfriend.. forget his plays.. drop passes.. fall down.. miss a tackle.. miss a block.. fumble the football.. throw an interception.. hold.. whatever..
And we probably all are guilty of doing it at some point or another..
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Post by wingt74 on Feb 2, 2009 21:00:47 GMT -6
Any coach can take an offensive, defensive or special teams concept and blow it up on paper. There is a weakness to everything you run. No "play" is perfect...any play is only as good as the coaching behind it, the players who execute, and the situation it's called.
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Post by CoachCP on Feb 2, 2009 22:07:01 GMT -6
Just like the "What If" coaches and players. Them - "But Coach, what if they do this..." Me - "I don't know, but its not gonna be worse then what I do to you if you say "what if" one more fricken time."  |
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Post by jhanawa on Feb 2, 2009 22:52:41 GMT -6
All defenses give up something..
and nearly all offensive plays are "designed" to score every play..
but.. the things that always screw it all up.. the kids..
That chalk dont miss too much practice.. get sick.. get a girlfriend.. forget his plays.. drop passes.. fall down.. miss a tackle.. miss a block.. fumble the football.. throw an interception.. hold.. whatever..
And we probably all are guilty of doing it at some point or another..
Air, great points.....IMO getting the kids to understand what the chalk means and to execute it is what makes the chalk right.....or wrong...
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Feb 2, 2009 23:40:13 GMT -6
It doesn't matter what I know, it only matters what I can teach them to do.
My scheme may not work on paper, but we don't play on paper-we play on grass.
You might be smart, but are you fast enough to call that fancy play of yours in 10 seconds?
Actually it's not last man with the chalk, it's last man with the dry erase marker now.
OJW
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tedseay
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Post by tedseay on Feb 3, 2009 4:13:59 GMT -6
Just like the "What If" coaches and players. Them - "But Coach, what if they do this..." Me - "I don't know, but its not gonna be worse then what I do to you if you say "what if" one more fricken time." My best effort along those lines was to fix the questioner with a cold stare and say "Son, that would mean the end of Western civilization." He started to say something, then he turned bright red, and then he shut up. |
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 3, 2009 6:44:53 GMT -6
I always like to say we are not going to defend ghosts. Coach A: But what if they do this?? ME: Well, I've broken down three games. I've watched 167 plays and they haven't done that once... as a matter of fact. they haven't done that the last two times we've played them. If they were to do that we could easliy make a sideline adjustment. I'm not going to worry about that now. on the other hand, they might have something to what they are saying so I'd say well let's break out the film and take a look at it.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 3, 2009 6:53:51 GMT -6
I am that "last guy with the chalk" in my mind all the time...I've learned over the years to keep my thoughts to myself to avoid looking like a pompous a$$. I hate when guys "what if" themselves to death- talking in circles.
It seems like the longer I'm in the game, the closer I get to the conclusion that it really doesn't matter what sound scheme you run- if my guys execute and are equal talent or better we will be successful.
I just posted about handling a stud nose while running the Down play, but I really should have stated "if that guy's a stud it doesn't matter what you run- he's going to win 9 out of 10 times...pick your poison or run away from him..."
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Post by olinecoach61 on Feb 3, 2009 6:58:58 GMT -6
I disagree. I think some of the most constructive times are when two coaches are going at it on the white board. It challenges your thinking and can open your eyes to different ideas. Of course that's assuming the chalk talk is done respectfully and the two coaches respect each others input.
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Post by jpdaley25 on Feb 3, 2009 8:03:48 GMT -6
I always quote Gene Stallings when the battle on the board begins. He says:
"Schemes don't win games. Players making plays wins games. You may not know this, but I know this."
And then I redirect the discussion into:
How do we get our players in the best position to make plays?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2009 8:22:49 GMT -6
I agree that those chalk times are good and beneficial, but sometimes they lose their benefit if the argument falls on deaf ears--just waiting to get the chalk back.
I watched an assistant one time PROVE to me that a deep safety could be both the primary QB player and primary pitch player vs. option on the same play. Every time he got the chalk back he would reiterate the argument and show how he was right.
It takes ears too.
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Post by dubber on Feb 3, 2009 10:58:42 GMT -6
It's the fine line between planning for contingencies and painting yourself into a corner.
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Post by CoachCP on Feb 3, 2009 13:31:01 GMT -6
I would like to clarify, two coaches working the chalk is a great thing. Its when you compete in an nonconstructive manner with the chalk do you run into problems.
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Post by cqmiller on Feb 3, 2009 15:57:06 GMT -6
EVERY DEFENSE GIVES UP SOMETHING
EVERY PROTECTION/SCHEME HAS WEAKNESSES
If the QB isn't smart enough to find the weakness in a zone-blitz, then the defense hasn't given up anything... but if the QB is smart enough to recognize and find the correct man (in the very short window of time) then the defense gives up a lot.
Same on the other side... If a defense never blitzes a particular player, then the offense can "pretend" that he doesn't exist, and set up a scheme where they never account for that player to blitz which allows them to pick up all the other blitzes. If the DC doesn't ever recognize that they don't have a man assigned to that player and send him to force the offense to change up, then they will never get pressure on the QB.
There is no offense or defense that will win EVERY TIME... if there was, then there wouldn't be any other types.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 3, 2009 19:40:53 GMT -6
I think the important thing is if you have that arguement, you at least walk out the door on the same page breathing one way to the players. They can smell division and will exploit it. I have been around that and when it happens, you have NO chance
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Post by CoachDaniel on Feb 3, 2009 21:46:11 GMT -6
Nothing wrong with the last man with the chalk game. Its fun when its done correctly, and I love to have someone tear apart my defense on the board. I think you can learn to think more quickly about what to do. And I'd rather it get torn up on the board than on the field!
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Post by bigm0073 on Feb 3, 2009 21:50:20 GMT -6
Not about the X's and O's it is the Jimmy and the Joe's..... Plus how well do you teach them their assignments and techniques...
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Post by khalfie on Feb 3, 2009 21:57:25 GMT -6
There is no offense or defense that will win EVERY TIME... if there was, then there wouldn't be any other types. Absolutely... However, there are schemes that can lose every time. We are taking the perspective that the guys holding the chalk know what they are talking about... and that's when those stalemates come into play... However... some folks don't recognize the difference between a balanced and unbalanced formation. Some coaches don't see the value in covering up all WR's... or matching numbers within the box. The importance of having inverts to help defend the option. Again... when you have two knowledgable guys going at it with the chalk... why bother... but when the idiot grabs the marker... it is the obligation for the teacher to teach the pupil. |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 4, 2009 8:44:45 GMT -6
I used to get into some pretty good chalk board battles with the DC /former OC where I once worked. I was the oline coach and I knew what my kids could block and how they could block it. His "rules" and "system" lacked flow and had soooooo many loop holes that everyone was lost. I took some resistance and had to pick my battles but I never once backed down despite his 30 plus years of experience. Ultimately I convinced the HC that I knew what I was doing with the oline and we went to my schemes 100%. I think its important for the HC to know what he wants to do, then teach the assistants what is going to happen. You cant run a program with everyone getting what they want.
I wont even interview a guy who wants to talk about his schemes before first listening to what we are already doing. I wont bother with listening to a guy talk about what he wants to do as part of my staff until I am convinced he understands our schemes and systems. One time a guy wanted to be my DC and I said " draw up our run fits versus buck sweep, belly, coverage vs waggle and waggle switch" and then draw up our option responsibility vs the option from the I , split backs and full house wishbone. You could hear crickets in the background.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2009 9:08:56 GMT -6
It's good, healthy discussion as long as it stays within some realm of reality. But there are those guys that believe that the game happens at the speed of chalk which it doesn't.
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Post by mitch on Feb 4, 2009 9:13:19 GMT -6
I always like to say we are not going to defend ghosts. Coach A: But what if they do this?? ME: Well, I've broken down three games. I've watched 167 plays and they haven't done that once... as a matter of fact. they haven't done that the last two times we've played them. If they were to do that we could easliy make a sideline adjustment. I'm not going to worry about that now. on the other hand, they might have something to what they are saying so I'd say well let's break out the film and take a look at it. I agree on not defending ghosts, but I do always make sure we are sound on the option, even if they don't run it. If a defense is option sound, I believe it will be structurally sound to most anything. Balances up the numbers. Don't want to defend the double reverse pass on a "what if", though. |
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Feb 4, 2009 9:16:23 GMT -6
For the "What IF" guys I always say "What if my aunt had a set of nuts?"...."she'd be my uncle." LOL! Consider that one stolen... |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 4, 2009 9:18:22 GMT -6
I always get the " what if all of their receivers are faster than our defensive backs, their offensive line can pass protect against our rush and their quarterback is the flash?" and I just say " we wont let them have the ball" if I am in a good mood or " well then we are going to lose" if I am in a bad mood.
My favorite "chalk war" comments are usually the ones where the half invested coach drops knowledge and repeats something he heard Jaworski say "now what if they walk the strong safety up and put 8 in the box, now we have to pass".
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Post by dubber on Feb 4, 2009 10:01:07 GMT -6
Here's the point: You don't need to adjust/plan for anything until they are stopping what you want to do. Notice the difference between stopping and stopped. Stopped is the current state of a particular instance. Blitzing 8 may have stopped Power once, but if that is the answer, you should have a solution (PAP, anyone?) Stopping indicates winning the battle now and into the future. The difference on the chalk board? In a vaccum of one play, any defense, knowing what the offense will run, can stunt and blitz and hedge bets to stop the "play". However, in order to continue to beat the "bread and butter", the defense must continue to over play, leaving itself exposed to "the series" arsenal........very elementary example is Power and Power PA. The difference on the field is when an over reaction is not taking place, but the base play is being stopped......now you ask "why?", and then you can fix the problem. Those are the real learning moments and moments of innovation. Problem: "We ain't getting a kickout block" Why? Is the DE a stud physically, or is he really good at squeezing a downblock? Possible solutions: -Run Power G where a bigger OG kicks out -Arc release the TE so our reading DE thinks it is sweep -Run sweep and see if he is just crashing Having those contingencies in place is good planning. Trying to figure out how to block Power versus every double tomahawk blitz, bump and grind coverage, roger rabbit stunt is pointless. All that said, read this: coachhuey.proboards42.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=offarticles&thread=953&page=1#6648 |
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 4, 2009 14:44:35 GMT -6
I always like to say we are not going to defend ghosts. Coach A: But what if they do this?? ME: Well, I've broken down three games. I've watched 167 plays and they haven't done that once... as a matter of fact. they haven't done that the last two times we've played them. If they were to do that we could easliy make a sideline adjustment. I'm not going to worry about that now. on the other hand, they might have something to what they are saying so I'd say well let's break out the film and take a look at it. I agree on not defending ghosts, but I do always make sure we are sound on the option, even if they don't run it. If a defense is option sound, I believe it will be structurally sound to most anything. Balances up the numbers. Don't want to defend the double reverse pass on a "what if", though. Excactly, we do this day one in assignment and alignment. every defense, every blitz |
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