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Post by bcurrier on Dec 20, 2008 18:34:06 GMT -6
Wow! Some of you sound like the scolding school marms that ‘coachbdud’ is presumably already dealing with at school. If he wanted to be scolded further, I’m sure he would have gone to see them, not come to his colleagues in the coaching fraternity on this site for healthy feedback and constructive criticism. If some of you are as smug, self-righteous, and humorless in addressing your players as you appear to come across in this thread, I wonder just how closely your players are listening to you.
The fact that he is asking the question does NOT imply that he already knows the answer. It seems clear that he feels some justification in what he did but has also heard enough of merit in the comments of the critical teachers that he is willing to engage in some self-reflection about his handling of the situation. That’s a critical first step in the process of improving as a coach and a leader. In fact, in my book, his willingness to do this indicates that ‘coachbdud’ is probably already well on his way to being a fine coach and leader.
Coachbdud: I agree with ‘bigm0073’ – the matter should not have gotten so far along. The player should not have been allowed to persist in “joking” comments that were personally denigrating of you and the other coaches or demeaning of his teammates. The fact that he “always started it” and “kept on going” indicated that he does not understand the limits of respect for authority, healthy relationships, and quality teamwork. Once that was clear, you needed to sit down with the player and do some personal coaching. With the proper groundwork laid and consistent, caring guidance/coaching from you thru the course of the season, a relationship may have developed between the two of you that would have allowed for some healthy “joshing” back and forth.
Regarding the film clip, I’m in the school of thought that says it would have been fine, appropriate, even a valuable coaching opportunity, to make a minor deal of the stiff-arm flat-backing in a team film session, but it should not have been “immortalized” on the season-end highlight film. Having said that, I can’t help wondering how those teachers came by their knowledge of the film clip – if the player was running around complaining to other adults about the matter instead of coming directly to you, that’s further indication of the kid’s immaturity and weak character. If the teachers learned about it because other players were talking about it, I think you need to instruct the whole team in the appropriate manner of dealing with matters of controversy within a group/team. Remember, we are fully “Springer-ized” as a culture, with both kids and adults believing that even the most intimate details and interactions are fodder for public discourse. It takes a concerted effort on our parts to fight that trend in our culture.
I agree with ‘dcohio’ that what those teachers think should not drive how you choose to deal with players in general or with this particular situation. The vast majority don’t understand what this sport demands of a young man or what it takes to develop an effective team. Nor do most of them (even many male teachers) understand well enough what young men need to develop in a healthy manner, or the necessity and role of a positive male role model. But I also agree with ‘warrior53’ that you need to take teachers’ perceptions into consideration, if for no other reason than to prevent them from undermining your program either on purpose or unintentionally. And I agree with ‘touchdowng’ that you should find a way, as much as possible, to apologize to the kid before an audience comparable to that in which the offense was committed.
If I were in your position, I would pray for the strength and courage to take the following steps: 1) meet with the kid and a third party that has a connection to both of you [e.g. another coach, the AD, the kid’s counselor], apologize for your mistakes [the video and failing to address the issue of the kid’s demeanor at the start of the season], and address the core problem of his demeanor; 2) remake the highlight video without the offending play and make it available to all who received the original (knowing that not everyone will take the new one or destroy the old one); and 3) write a note to those teachers who have commented to you, explaining the steps you’ve taken and why. This does not have to be an apology unless you believe that is warranted; instead, view it as an opportunity to give those teachers insight into your heart as a coach and the broader mission of your program. And include a copy of the new highlight video with the note to each of those teachers. I expect that you will find that taking these steps could very well turn a negative situation into a real positive turning point for your program, the player, and the school’s support for the program.
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Post by airraider on Dec 20, 2008 18:41:28 GMT -6
Wow! Some of you sound like the scolding school marms that ‘coachbdud’ is presumably already dealing with at school. If he wanted to be scolded further, I’m sure he would have gone to see them, not come to his colleagues in the coaching fraternity on this site for healthy feedback and constructive criticism. If some of you are as smug, self-righteous, and humorless in addressing your players as you appear to come across in this thread, I wonder just how closely your players are listening to you. The fact that he is asking the question does NOT imply that he already knows the answer. It seems clear that he feels some justification in what he did but has also heard enough of merit in the comments of the critical teachers that he is willing to engage in some self-reflection about his handling of the situation. That’s a critical first step in the process of improving as a coach and a leader. In fact, in my book, his willingness to do this indicates that ‘coachbdud’ is probably already well on his way to being a fine coach and leader. Coachbdud: I agree with ‘bigm0073’ – the matter should not have gotten so far along. The player should not have been allowed to persist in “joking” comments that were personally denigrating of you and the other coaches or demeaning of his teammates. The fact that he “always started it” and “kept on going” indicated that he does not understand the limits of respect for authority, healthy relationships, and quality teamwork. Once that was clear, you needed to sit down with the player and do some personal coaching. With the proper groundwork laid and consistent, caring guidance/coaching from you thru the course of the season, a relationship may have developed between the two of you that would have allowed for some healthy “joshing” back and forth. Regarding the film clip, I’m in the school of thought that says it would have been fine, appropriate, even a valuable coaching opportunity, to make a minor deal of the stiff-arm flat-backing in a team film session, but it should not have been “immortalized” on the season-end highlight film. Having said that, I can’t help wondering how those teachers came by their knowledge of the film clip – if the player was running around complaining to other adults about the matter instead of coming directly to you, that’s further indication of the kid’s immaturity and weak character. If the teachers learned about it because other players were talking about it, I think you need to instruct the whole team in the appropriate manner of dealing with matters of controversy within a group/team. Remember, we are fully “Springer-ized” as a culture, with both kids and adults believing that even the most intimate details and interactions are fodder for public discourse. It takes a concerted effort on our parts to fight that trend in our culture. I agree with ‘dcohio’ that what those teachers think should not drive how you choose to deal with players in general or with this particular situation. The vast majority don’t understand what this sport demands of a young man or what it takes to develop an effective team. Nor do most of them (even many male teachers) understand well enough what young men need to develop in a healthy manner, or the necessity and role of a positive male role model. But I also agree with ‘warrior53’ that you need to take teachers’ perceptions into consideration, if for no other reason than to prevent them from undermining your program either on purpose or unintentionally. And I agree with ‘touchdowng’ that you should find a way, as much as possible, to apologize to the kid before an audience comparable to that in which the offense was committed. If I were in your position, I would pray for the strength and courage to take the following steps: 1) meet with the kid and a third party that has a connection to both of you [e.g. another coach, the AD, the kid’s counselor], apologize for your mistakes [the video and failing to address the issue of the kid’s demeanor at the start of the season], and address the core problem of his demeanor; 2) remake the highlight video without the offending play and make it available to all who received the original (knowing that not everyone will take the new one or destroy the old one); and 3) write a note to those teachers who have commented to you, explaining the steps you’ve taken and why. This does not have to be an apology unless you believe that is warranted; instead, view it as an opportunity to give those teachers insight into your heart as a coach and the broader mission of your program. And include a copy of the new highlight video with the note to each of those teachers. I expect that you will find that taking these steps could very well turn a negative situation into a real positive turning point for your program, the player, and the school’s support for the program. I think its rather amusing that some coaches on here view this board as being strictly in the professional light.. they tend to answer things as if their lively hood relies on it. If pulled aside by one of their own colleagues who had the exact questions.. I wouldn't doubt a different answer would come about. Some people may hate me on here.. whatever.. but what you see is what you get.. period..
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Post by brophy on Dec 20, 2008 19:11:05 GMT -6
bcurrier makes a lot of great points. 1. How many believe it is okay / have done this - to review clips of your players in an effort to humiliate them? (that was the intent of viewing and re-viewing the stiff-arm). How many have made clips of negative plays of our players to be viewed by the team/public, not for learning or review, but for the sole intent of laughing at them? Is it okay to do to SOME of your players but not ALL of them? 2. The stated intent wasn't in 'good humor' but a power thrust over the player to one-up them and demean them. a)what does that really TEACH? There is no trust - just reinforce a dog-eat-dog environment
b) it isn't a friendly exchange, because there is no way the player can redeem himself or his pride after this.
c) if YOUR KID was on a team where the coaches publicly demean him in front of the group, how would you feel? I think one of the most important elements we forget as coaches is that the kids we don't like are actually SOMEONE'S KID. It is convenient to forget that fact when we marginalize and forget about them.
d) why wasn't this behavior nipped in the bud early on, and when does a 'fighting fire with fire' approach ever work when combating immature/unacceptable behavior?
e) we are making excuses to justify why its okay to abuse our own players. We can paint any kid in as negative light to 'justify' any action ("well, I kicked a kid in the nuts...but....but...he is a real a55hole"). Some of us are losing sight that this wasn't meant to be a friendly barb interpreted wrong....it was INTENDED to cause harm 3. I totally agree with bcurrier on 'how did the other adults come to this knowledge?" - but (maybe I'm wrong) making a statement of reparations or 'wrong-doing' may do more harm than good. I don't know that this kid will get anything out of it, and it would most certainly dig a hole for reproach (where it may not warrant such).
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Post by coachorr on Dec 20, 2008 23:31:10 GMT -6
Currier and Brophy, well stated and a good post to learn from, thanks. And to the coach in question, thanks for taking one for the team.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 21, 2008 8:37:28 GMT -6
I have used film clips of big headed "chest thumpers" being whipped on the field as a way to demonstrate that they are human. Drives me nuts when a player thinks hes a star and is perfect and is openly critical of teammates. Thats a coaches job, not a players job.
film of kids being blown up by bigger stronger players can make a pretty big statement when you are taking over a program where weight room participation is poor. "Now see this, this is what happens when one kid lifts and the other does not". It makes quite an impression. Funny, we had the biggest response in one of our players by doing this, we showed him being stuffed at the goal line. We played that clip about 30 times while we were talking about stepping up our weight room attendance and intensity. No doubt, if the young man had paid his dues in the wt room he wins that encounter at the goal line. Same young man, same game, being trucked by the other teams backs. Bigger, stronger body hitting a smaller weaker body. Teachable moments but they do not have to be made public for sure. If a coach were to post those videos on say YOU TUBE with the caption "see dude, dont be a wuss, you need to lift!" hed probably be fired.
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Post by coachcb on Dec 21, 2008 10:13:55 GMT -6
Although I can appreciate your situation, coachbud, using the highlight film to prove a point wasn't a good idea.
Far too often, when working with high school kids, we tend to forget that they are kids. They look like adults, sometimes they act like adults, but they are still kids. There are things that we say and do that have way more impact on the kid than we realize.
We have a kid that sounds a lot like your player. He's a pain in the neck in the classroom and on the football field, but he's learning to keep his mouth shut. We put our foot down on consistently and he doesn't play much because of his attitude. He said something rude to one of the coaches during a JV game, I sat him on him on the bench for the rest of that game.
The moral of the story; deal with those things before they hit the boiling point. If he was mouthy to the point of being a distraction, removing him from the team was the best course of action.
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 21, 2008 17:07:09 GMT -6
Lots of kids are jokers. Some are real jerks too. Sounds like this kid fit both descriptions. But a HC should never stoop to their level.
The kid will probably get over it. Hopefully, he won't dish out as much as he has in the past.
The original question was ,"Was I wrong?" I think he was. The potential to humiliate a kid with a public showing of a highlight video was the wrong decision.
If the coach has put together a video of bloopers and had included more than this one kid, that would be different.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 22, 2008 8:55:16 GMT -6
Humiliating the kid??? What?? Give me a break with the extremist verbiage. The kid may have been embarrassed, but humiliated? Whatever I'm not buying that. It's not like the video was shown as a Superbowl commercial seen by millions, it's not like a copy was mailed to everyone in the neighborhood and coach highlighted the player, putting his name above it and narrating the video stating the kid's name, the kid doesn't have to register as a "stiff arm offender" and his neighbors be notified of it for life. Even money is the only people who got a video were football family connected and the video was not shown "publicly" to anyone outside the football family with any knowledge of who that kid was. That kid may have been embarrassed by what happened on the field but "humiliated" he was not. Besides, whether he realizes it or not...that play was on a highlight video, if it was a play where your kid was "humiliated", I got $100 says that play is on the ball carrier's HL video and probably got sent to college coaches. So tell your kid to go talk to #32, he's the guy sending it all over the country...and make sure you tell your teachers that too. Agree! And will add...if the kid is a big enough a-hole to be cuttin' on the coaches publically about their weight (or whatever), I think something should have been done about that type behavior long before this video. Maybe the video embarassment will serve to keep the kid's mouth shut some in the future instead of popping off to cut someone down.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 22, 2008 9:05:18 GMT -6
If you are a man of worth And produce a son by the grace of god, If he is straight, takes after you, Takes good care of your possessions, Do for him all that is good, He is your son, your spirit begot him, Don't withdraw your heart from him. But an offspring can make trouble: If he strays, neglects your counsel, Disobeys all that is said, His mouth spouting evil speech, Punish him for all his talk . . . Punish firmly, chastise soundly, Then repression of crime becomes an example; Punishment except for crime Turns the complainer into an enemy.
I love this quote...comes from a guy named Ptah-Hotep who was an advisor to the Egyptian pharaohs. Good advice 4500 years ago, good advice today!
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2008 9:16:51 GMT -6
If a coach acts like an A-hole on this message board......
I should treat him like an A-hole, because THAT way. .........he'll stop being an A-hole.Did I get that correct?
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Post by khalfie on Dec 22, 2008 9:57:32 GMT -6
If you are a man of worth And produce a son by the grace of god, If he is straight, takes after you, Takes good care of your possessions, Do for him all that is good, He is your son, your spirit begot him, Don't withdraw your heart from him. But an offspring can make trouble: If he strays, neglects your counsel, Disobeys all that is said, His mouth spouting evil speech, Punish him for all his talk . . . Punish firmly, chastise soundly, Then repression of crime becomes an example; Punishment except for crime Turns the complainer into an enemy.I love this quote...comes from a guy named Ptah-Hotep who was an advisor to the Egyptian pharaohs. Good advice 4500 years ago, good advice today! Impressive... What you know about Ptah Hotep? That's my guy! Book of the Dead... the Negative Confessions... the first philosopher... doctor... I don't like you... but I do respect the hell out of ya! ;D You sure your daddy isn't from Cleveland? Did your mom step out once or twice and hang with the bruhs? I ain't sayin' we are kin... but its truly a small world!
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 22, 2008 12:54:46 GMT -6
If a coach acts like an A-hole on this message board......
I should treat him like an A-hole, because THAT way. .........he'll stop being an A-hole.Did I get that correct? Who are you asking?
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Post by Sparkey on Dec 22, 2008 14:08:05 GMT -6
It is difficult to do at times, but we should treat all kids better than they deserve! That is our adult responsibility.
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2008 19:49:36 GMT -6
I'll do my best to shed some insight. Please, feel free to read this or ignore it - but I would ask that you DO read it if you are going to respond to it. I am not arguing, just clarifying the TRUE issue (the mashing of logic and 'right' and 'wrong' is making this thread difficult to understand). Meaning, I'm not TRYING to be combative or argumentative.....before you read this and say, " oh he disagrees...I'll show him how he is wrong", please read what I am actually saying first. I'm not - I'm illustrating the continuum of logic. Applying the same principle we are using for kids to colleagues. Being an A-hole to (someone you think is) an A-hole, isn't going to compel anyone to stop being an A-hole. (**I really just like saying A-hole....) It is difficult to do at times, but we should treat all kids better than they deserve! That is our adult responsibility. I don't know about that. Seems to me the one thing that kids today take advantage of is being treated better than they deserve, given 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances. That is fine....but it reads like you are suggesting that we are just looking for reasons to justify treating kids (we don't like) like garbage to show them who is boss. Holding kids to high standards is ONE thing (we all should be doing that, and I believe that we all do). No one is suggesting (it reads that this is what you are implying), that if we DON'T coerce the kids, then they are "getting over on us". If you WANT to treat kids bad......GO AHEAD (I'm not saying "you're wrong") I'm simply responding / providing a rebuttal on why this isn't NECESSARY. Whatever. DO NOT treat my 2 kids better than they deserve to be treated, the last thing I want is a 24 year old moving back home because a practical joke he pulled on his boss got him fired and he didn't realize that could happen to him. We are using extreme hyperbole to build imaginary boogey men here. The issue is actually pretty cut and dry. If we treat kids (EVERY KID, not just the ones we like) with respect, doesn't mean that they are going to turn into thugs because they "got over" on coach. My one gripe with the Education system is that this type of mentality continues to be nutrured. We continue to nurture the "as long as I have power or authority, I can treat people like {censored}" mentality. Kids come out of HS and seek out authority just so they can be the one in charge (and have no thought on HOW to use that authority with responsibility). Seems to me they are having trouble learning the cause and effect relationship.
Like those girls in florida who all beat up that one girl and asking if they are going to make cheerleading practice. "but....but.......but.........Johnny Stole Cookies from the Cookie Jar, TOO!"
Meaning, one bad = another bad? If what we do requires a litany of excuses , a foundational story (well, y'see what happened was.....), or explaining how BAD the 'other guy' was to MAKE you do something unsavory.....chances are, it may not be beyond reproach and could stand some review. Separating out from this video showing incident...treating kids better than they deserve is exactly the problem. You're suggesting that NOT actively pursuing belittling someone is " treating them better than they deserve"? That was the entire thrust of the act ---- humble, demean, (pick your definition), punk out. How is that 'honorable'? If that is what you want to do - go ahead, but I don't see that anyone can sugar coat this as what we "gotta do" or is the 'manly thing to do'. It is actually pretty simple. Is it EVER okay to hit a woman / girlfriend? What if she....... What if when you did ____, she did ____ The answer is NEVER, right? You should never treat another person like that, correct? So why are we so desperately looking for excuses to treat people like {censored}, here? If coach, or better still, Mrs. Crabbysnatch in Social Studies, has a hardon for YOUR son/daughter, and feels THEY need to teach your child a "lesson"....and to do so, she has to insult your kid. Is THAT okay? Or would you think Mrs.Crabbysnatch has some unresolved authority issues?
teaching young men how to over come adversity. That no matter the penalty, no matter the situation...NO MATTER WHAT...all you can do is control what you can control and play the next play, play it the best you can and to suck it up and get it done regardless of circumstance. USA! USA! USA! USA! That really has nothing to do with this situation. Purposely trying to insult a player has nothing to do with making a better man....unless you're attempting to build a sociopath who will thrive in prison. What is the proper age to ween kids off the mother teet? Is it age 18? Cause if it is, there are a lot of juvenile detention centers that should be empty right now.
I mean seriously, what are we talking about here? 5 seconds of film? 1 play out of 650 on the season. If that kid's self-esteem and self-worth is shattered because of that one play and coach putting it on the video...then get ready to hear his name on CNN sometime in the near future, it's only a matter of time and since we are treating kids better than they deserve we can blame Coachbud for driving him to it since we all know a 15-18 year old kid is not accountable for his own actions and the reactions of others to those actions. I kick my players in the nuts before practice....they just need to toughen up. Whatever. DO NOT treat my 2 kids better than they deserve to be treated, the last thing I want is a 24 year old moving back home because a practical joke he pulled on his boss got him fired and he didn't realize that could happen to him. boogey men in the closet. Applying discipline is one thing. Pursuing 'revenge' with malice is another thing. If the kid is out of line. Call him on it. Don't PARTICIPATE IN IT. If you got a chapped {censored} when it 'goes too far', blame yourself - if you're gonna GIVE, you'd better TAKE. If you get upset, get your feelings hurt, then go after the kid because he engaged in 'playing' that you encouraged.......and you go after him with the intent of offending him....you haven't taught jack squat. You've just shown that a leader, 'man', or whatever role model you think you're teaching, can be just as big of a PUNK as a pimple-faced teenager. Again, I'm not trying to convert anyone. I'm not trying to argue. My feelings are not hurt. I thought I could try to provide some perspective on another outlook. I'd kinda like to keep this thread from being locked or going to post heaven
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Post by khalfie on Dec 22, 2008 19:58:26 GMT -6
Excellent post bro... (Khal grabs his popcorn, because he knows this is about to get good... 2 Heavyweights... 2 distinct philosophies... each opinionated to a fault...Thrilla in manila... nah... the Rumble in the Jungle... un ugh... Fight on the Web site... yeah... that's the tickete...)
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Post by brophy on Dec 22, 2008 20:34:06 GMT -6
Just an honest question, though.
If this didn't get back to you because the teachers said something............
Would you have posted this?
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Post by bcurrier on Dec 22, 2008 20:39:28 GMT -6
I think its rather amusing that some coaches on here view this board as being strictly in the professional light.. they tend to answer things as if their lively hood relies on it. If pulled aside by one of their own colleagues who had the exact questions.. I wouldn't doubt a different answer would come about. Some people may hate me on here.. whatever.. but what you see is what you get.. period.. Airraider: ...not entirely sure what to make of your post, but it appears you felt targeted. For what it's worth, your post was not one I was responding to. You are correct -- not everything on this board is about the professional element of our involvement in football and coaching. However, this specific thread IS about the professional context...the player-coach relationship has gone awry in this situation, the coach is facing criticism from within the school where he coaches, and he has asked for constructive input. IMO, your initial post served to make the valid point that there is an element of fun, joking, and "cracking on" each other in a healthy coach-player relationship. But you seem to have missed the point that this is not, at least at present a healthy relationship. Frankly, your intial post seems to indicate (to me at least) a certain 'tone-deafness' on your part to the importance of that context that may be leaving you set up for a situation similar to the one 'coachbdud' finds himself in. I don't know you, so I certainly can't like or dislike you, much less love or hate you. And what you see may be what you get, but what you see isn't always what's actually there.
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 22, 2008 22:22:07 GMT -6
dcohio
What did the boy learn from seeing his "lowlight" on the team's highlight video? Remember he watched this with the rest of the people at the banquet (if I can remember the original post.)
None of us really knows what he learned or how he may have been influenced (negatively or positively) from this experience. Only he will know. This experience will influence him and others (who were there) in some respect. The ONLY thing we cannot do from a leadership standpoint is NOT influence.
As mature adults who are in LEADERSHIP positions it is our job to constantly show kids like him the high road. The game of one upsmanship is not the right game to be playing with teens.
Coach made a mistake and he's looking for some guidance on this message board. Nobody is throwing him under the bus or ridiculing his decision. He just made a bad call. In my opinion he owes the boy an apology and then everyone can just move on.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 22, 2008 22:36:38 GMT -6
Khalfie, I keep thinking I'll hear...
Down goes Frazza' ! Down goes Frazza' !
And here Brophy is waxing eloquantly, as good as I've ever seen him-just amazing isn't it.
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Post by coachbdud on Dec 22, 2008 22:50:47 GMT -6
just an update, it wasnt in fron tof everyone, only the football players were in the room at the time. so it wasnt like every kid in the school saw it, although word spread...
the HC and i talked with the kid, i apologized and things are fine. the kid went on vacation for a few days and in his absence everybody basically forgot, so we have all pretty much moved on... learned my lesson, wont happen again. thanks for the posts everybody...
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Post by poweriguy on Dec 23, 2008 0:18:55 GMT -6
just an update, it wasnt in fron tof everyone, only the football players were in the room at the time. so it wasnt like every kid in the school saw it, although word spread... the HC and i talked with the kid, i apologized and things are fine. the kid went on vacation for a few days and in his absence everybody basically forgot, so we have all pretty much moved on... learned my lesson, wont happen again. thanks for the posts everybody... Burn the film. Lesson learned.
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Post by airraider on Dec 23, 2008 9:25:30 GMT -6
I think its rather amusing that some coaches on here view this board as being strictly in the professional light.. they tend to answer things as if their lively hood relies on it. If pulled aside by one of their own colleagues who had the exact questions.. I wouldn't doubt a different answer would come about. Some people may hate me on here.. whatever.. but what you see is what you get.. period.. Airraider: ...not entirely sure what to make of your post, but it appears you felt targeted. For what it's worth, your post was not one I was responding to. You are correct -- not everything on this board is about the professional element of our involvement in football and coaching. However, this specific thread IS about the professional context...the player-coach relationship has gone awry in this situation, the coach is facing criticism from within the school where he coaches, and he has asked for constructive input. IMO, your initial post served to make the valid point that there is an element of fun, joking, and "cracking on" each other in a healthy coach-player relationship. But you seem to have missed the point that this is not, at least at present a healthy relationship. Frankly, your intial post seems to indicate (to me at least) a certain 'tone-deafness' on your part to the importance of that context that may be leaving you set up for a situation similar to the one 'coachbdud' finds himself in. I don't know you, so I certainly can't like or dislike you, much less love or hate you. And what you see may be what you get, but what you see isn't always what's actually there. no, no.. My post was a response from your first line about some of the coaches here sounding like the people from his school. This is no way goes for everyone, but I do believe there are some people on here who respond to people in a way that is consistent with some sort of ulterior world they have created for themselves. I believe there are some coaches such as coachd who are actual jack wipes ;D, but I think some come on here and try to pull moral rank to build some internet respect from others on this board, when in reality they have done some of the same things they condemn. I'm just sayin.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 23, 2008 9:34:16 GMT -6
DCOhio, I got what you meant.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 23, 2008 9:50:57 GMT -6
brophy,
Good points all, and I read it all. Can't really disagree with any point you make, but can offer a little different (wrong or not) perspective.
Old cliche' sayings: "Two wrongs don't make a right" and "Fight fire with fire". When applied here, they are opposing lines of thought...is one or the other wrong or better? ( I know you wrote you weren't saying anybody is wrong )
If you read my post above about "humiliation" being a little over the top, I stated that this kids behavior should have been dealt with BEFORE the video. I guess I should have been more clear and stated that I think the coach in question here maybe was letting the kid go too far instead of issuing a correction earlier and in a different manner than the video. Though I think, and he has stated since, the coach could have done it differently, I'm not sure I'd call his actions "wrong" with respect to the video, especially since it was only viewed by the team, and not the general public, but probably not the recommended way to go about it. And I'm not sure that a proper lesson can't be learned by the kid from being embarrassed and hurt over it, IF someone (ie the coach) explains it...as it appears has happened. .
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Post by brophy on Dec 23, 2008 10:02:01 GMT -6
This thread / situation is a good example of how things can look through other's eyes. We ALL have participated in questionable behavior with our players at one point or the other. We have had players complain when calling them "Fat Bastards" during Oline drills ( "coach, I'm not a bastard, I know who my father is....") colloquial expresssions Calling a kid a 'dickhead' after he calls you 'fatboy' is another.....trading barbs What put me, personally, on a tirade is the questionable motivation this was used in and WHY the act isn't terrible, but the intent that is being called out. so we had this kid.....not very good....the biggest A hole you will ever meet. he talks more Sh!t then anyone on the team. Non stop making fun of people .....hefty coaches, myself included... chubby jokes and food jokes he needs to learn a lesson If these comments weren't here, I would've thought it was just innocent fun. But because these qualifiers illustrate the individual's malice towards the kid, THAT is what is an abuse of power/authority.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 23, 2008 10:13:24 GMT -6
If a joke bothers a coach. Simple fix, pull the kid aside and say:
"Jimmy, I really like having you here on the team (should be easy to say as this conversation should come early in the season), when you make comments about coaches being overweight it bothers some of us, me included. Also, some of your jokes are over the top. I want you to have a great time and have fun, just be careful about the things you say, because what you say can also be hurtful to your teammates and I won't allow negative commentary from one individual to tear this team apart."
One on one, no power struggle in front of everyone else. No feelings hurt.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 23, 2008 10:15:56 GMT -6
This thread / situation is a good example of how things can look through other's eyes. We ALL have participated in questionable behavior with our players at one point or the other. We have had players complain when calling them "Fat Bastards" during Oline drills ( "coach, I'm not a bastard, I know who my father is....") colloquial expresssions Calling a kid a 'dickhead' after he calls you 'fatboy' is another.....trading barbs What put me, personally, on a tirade is the questionable motivation this was used in and WHY the act isn't terrible, but the intent that is being called out. so we had this kid.....not very good....the biggest A hole you will ever meet. If these comments weren't here, I would've thought it was just innocent fun. But because these qualifiers illustrate the individual's malice towards the kid, THAT is what is an abuse of power/authority. Agree! The coach "handled" this because it got personal with him and he wanted payback, not because he was trying to correct the kid. Not good to get to that point.
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Post by touchdowng on Dec 24, 2008 0:24:56 GMT -6
Let me share a little story as this happened just this past season. I only share this because I honestly believe that many teachers and coaches have no clue about what power we have over our students and athletes.
Last summer we take 80 kids to team camp at a local college. We have this new freshman kid. The kid is a squirrel. Likeable, but a squirrel. I'm the head varsity coach and the typical freshman kid walks on eggshells around me until they get to know me a little and realize that I'm not as grumpy as they've heard. Not this kid. He's joking with all of the coaches since day one and I'm his prime target. I enjoy his swagger and we engage in some very low level barbs. Nothing out of bounds but he shows confidence that could put him in a position of admiration or a position of being the team idiot.
For whatever reason our kids (varsity kids included) embrace him for his personality. The fact that he can play pretty well doesn't hurt either. Something inside me tells me that they must know something about him that I don't.
Anyway, the first night we are in the dorms I stay at my home. Our coaches "shift" overnight duties at summer camp. When I show up the next morning at 7am. I'm greeted by the four coaches who stayed overnight.
"Coach, you are not going to be happy. One of the kids broke a TV in the dorm lounge." Pulled it off the wall and it fell to the ground and broke.
It happens to be this same kid. Seems he was walking through the lounge (before bedcheck) and a kid from another school had put a toilet plunger on the TV screen. So my player pulls on the plunger and CRASH goes the TV. Like any other freshman, he takes off running and looks to be the guilty party.
He explained to me what happened and I told him that he owned it since it was he who touched it last. He ended up paying for the TV repairs. Now the kid has a "rap sheet" in my mind. Squirrely Freshman, TV Breaker, etc. etc. Everytime he sees me at camp, he gives me a very wide berth. Smart kid.
A month later when our season starts we have a Unity Night at our school with all of players and coaches doing skits and basically poking fun at one another and it's a really good time. Most of the fun is poked at us coaches. And that's what we want.
Anyway, this kid is part of skit with his fellow freshman and they're getting agitated with him because he thinks their skit is dumb and he says he has a better idea. The freshman QB asks me to talk with the boy so they can keep practicing.
NOW HERE IS THE TEACHABLE MOMENT:
I walk up to him and am about ready to say, "Didn't your parents have any kids that lived?" To some this could be really funny and a way to break the ice. Instead, I say, "Didn't your parents........" He says, "What?" Instead I ask, "How many brothers and sisters do you have?" Something inside me said, Don't say it and I am so glad I didn't.
He said, "I use to have a sister."
Feeling clumsy as all get out, I then redirect our conversation back towards the skit. We solved the issue and they continued with the activity.
NOW FAST FORWARD TWO MONTHS INTO THE SEASON.
He is restricted for full contact during a practice due to a sore neck. He's the type of kid who would jump in when we aren't watching him so I have him stand by me during team offense. We're a little away from the rest of the team so I have to ask him.
"Hey do you remember that night at Unity Camp when I asked you about if you had brothers or sisters?" He said, "yeah." I asked him what happened. So he explained and for the first time his demeanor was of seriousness and sincerity.
His 16 year old sister was killed in a car wreck last spring. She was his only sibling and they had been home schooled together for most of their lives. They were very tight. Had I went through with my original thought (2 months earlier) of asking him if his parents had any kids that lived (purely out of humor), where would we have been? Where would the trust level be between this young man and his head coach? Would it ever reach the level it is now? I don't know but I'm glad I don't have to find out.
I have something in our coaching manual that says we don't use humor or sarcasm at the expense of our players. We aren't perfect with this but we try.
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Post by coachorr on Dec 24, 2008 0:55:41 GMT -6
TD, that was a great story, thanks.
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