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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 15, 2008 20:59:04 GMT -6
Hemloch, That's cool that you've met both men. I was wondering what kind of man Coach Gill was. That makes me feel worse.
Most Auburn people (we don't call ourselves fans) would have opted for Turner Gill. He might be in line at Nebraska eventually. I think it would have been great BECAUSE of race. Even if Coach Gill wouldn't have been successful, it would have been good for Auburn and college football. And good for the state of Alabama.
Southerners are easy targets for the race attack though. Even as you say, we are more integrated than most parts of the county. We are easy targets. I wish it wasn't so, and among most people, things are much better than they were when I was a child in the 1960's. I feel that football has had a lot to do with this healing that needed to occur.
Like I said, Southerners made easy targets, and this hire IS a temporary shot to Auburn's image. But it will all soon vanish, probably by next week. The old money still rules.
It's the golden rule: "he who has the gold-rules."
Of course, the South is the only place where these things occur. Look at all the African-American coaches throughout college football in America and in the NFL. (that was sarcasm if you didn't notice), AND it is a disgrace.
Here's to better times. OJW
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Post by hemlock on Dec 15, 2008 21:26:40 GMT -6
I'm relieved nobody from the South who posts on this board took my point the wrong way. Like I said, I love the South and its people.
Unfortunately, as OJW notes, Southerners make easy targets on this issue and some others as well.
I agree, football has done a lot for integration.
BTW, Auburn's AD used my favorite word to describe the hire - "Coach Chizik is the best fit for Auburn." What an innocuous, yet critically important little word.
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Post by khalfie on Dec 15, 2008 22:52:29 GMT -6
I have to agree with Hemlock...
We can sugar coat this all we want...
We can use all the flowery language we want...
But when a football decision is being made, not based on a football criteria... then something is severly wrong.
Culture, fit, call it what you want, but the end result is still discrimination and prejudice.
Can an AFrican American ever "fit" into Auburn culture?
Will it take every previous Southern coach with Auburn ties to fail, before, someone else gets a chance to fit? I can't accept the, "well, that's the way it is..."
Because its just wrong. No matter how you slice it...
5-19...
Losing your last 8 games...
Without even having to play Texas, Oklahoma, or Texas Tech...
To allow I-state, a tough competitor at the very least, to become an also ran...
And get a promotion... in status and pay...
Simply because you "fit"? And if with those credentials... a coach can fit... how can any other coach... NOT FIT?
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Post by DLine06 on Dec 16, 2008 4:34:36 GMT -6
The whole "fit thing" is starting to become a problem...
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Post by knighter on Dec 16, 2008 8:23:27 GMT -6
with a loss to 1AA UNI on the resume, oh and khalfie, try losing 10 STRAIGHT games to finish the season. (not 8)
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Post by davecisar on Dec 16, 2008 8:56:28 GMT -6
ISU never won a road game under coach Chizik, ofer 2 years in a very mediocre Big 12 North and Non Conference schedule. No clue if he can consistently head coach effectively or not But Im a huge Dan McCarney fan, so not for me to say.
Coach Gill would be a very good "fit" and effective at ISU, 4 assistant coaches with Big 12 or midwestern ties and his wife is from here, young children etc, He knows how to win in the Big 12, recruiting ties etc etc Im sure he would prayerfully consider it.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 16, 2008 11:14:12 GMT -6
ISU never won a road game under coach Chizik, ofer 2 years in a very mediocre Big 12 North and Non Conference schedule. No clue if he can consistently head coach effectively or not But Im a huge Dan McCarney fan, so not for me to say. Coach Gill would be a very good "fit" and effective at ISU, 4 assistant coaches with Big 12 or midwestern ties and his wife is from here, young children etc, He knows how to win in the Big 12, recruiting ties etc etc Im sure he would prayerfully consider it. Can't win when the race card is played. Don't interview a black coach = racism. Interview but don't hire a black coach = racism. Anyway, Gill isn't the Auburn Coach. Call it what you will. Chizik? Well he went 2-10, 3-9 after taking over a program that was 3-9 the year before. In the 10 seasons PRIOR to Chizik ISU was 3-9, 7-7, 7-5, 2-10, 7-7, 7-5, 9-3, 4-7, 3-8, 1-10. Though I wouldn't have chosen Chizik TODAY, 2 years ago he's have been viewed as a potential "next Bob Stoops". And I'll reserve judgment on a coach coming from a program where the high water mark for the last 12 years is 9 wins, reached only once, and where 7 loss seasons are about as common as 7 win seasons, and where the previous 10 seasons had a total mark of 50W - 62L if my math is correct. Compare that to taking over an Auburn program that won 55 games from 2003-2008, and only has 2 losing seasons in the last 10. If he can recruit, he'll be successful. If not, he'll get 3 maybe 4 years because the cupboard, though not full, is not bare.
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Post by davecisar on Dec 16, 2008 12:38:16 GMT -6
Best of luck to him At ISU his teams didnt show progress at all In previous 10 years the program aggregate was nearly.500 With a very weak schedule, they never approached that with Chizek, were not competitive I may be biased, McCarney recruited Omaha heavily and was always doing radio interviews here, impressive focused guy.
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Post by hemlock on Dec 16, 2008 12:48:27 GMT -6
I don't think you would have heard the race card had Auburn hired somebody whose credentials as a head coach were better than Gill's. Had they hired Gary Patterson or Mike Leach (had he been in the running) over Gill the race card would never have come up. The problem is that Chizik has yet to earn his spurs as a HC.
Fit is code for a lot of things. Sure, "fit" can be used to gloss over race or a whole variety of other things. Think about how the McCain Campaign tried to create viable narratives so people could openly vote against Obama and justify it if asked without having to say anything about race.
What needs to be understood is that this issue is not sui generis to only the South. The majority of doners and boosters of most universities are white. If you have ever attended a booster club meeting at a country club or alumni association you would see what I mean. The majority of VIPs who have luxary boxes are white. These are the people that in many instances, but especially at old money institutions, university presidents have to make comfortable. When push comes to shove, most want to be with people that are like them, that look like them and to a certain degree share their values. While this most definately has severe racial implications, it transgresses race as well. Look at Mike Leach. A Mormon, a lawyer with legitimate intellectual bent is viewed hostilly not only by his peers, but others as well.
University presidents are in a bind on this one. By nature, university presidents are intellectuals that embrace difference and eschew sameness; they would rather their campus be heterogeneous rather than homogeneous. When dealing with alums and boosters, however, their dealing with cats that, albeit successful in whatever industry they work, are frequently not the most open-minded or culturally diverse individuals in the world. This is the world of the booster - WASP (WHITE ANGLO SAXON PROTESTANT) and it is not only alive, but thriving in American universities. The Chizik hire reflects this. Yes, while "fit" does imply race, it also implies values and if you decode Jacobs' statement you will see that they were looking for somebody who reflects the "values" of a certain part of the Auburn community. I can assure you, as a faculty member at a large state institution, very few faculty share Jacobs' values. Whether the football coach is a Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Mormon would matter very little (if at all) to the vast majority of Auburn's community. However, these people are not the community that matter - that of Bobby Lowder, Pat Dye, and Jacobs - hardly what I would call polyglot band of merrymakers.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 16, 2008 13:02:15 GMT -6
Best of luck to him At ISU his teams didnt show progress at all In previous 10 years the program aggregate was nearly.500 With a very weak schedule, they never approached that with Chizek, were not competitive I may be biased, McCarney recruited Omaha heavily and was always doing radio interviews here, impressive focused guy. It seems it's rare for ISU to be competitive. Again, Chizik wouldn't have been my choice, but I'm going to reserve judgement. Hemlock, You're correct on most counts I think. Still, Gill had 2 losing seasons going in to this year...did he earn his spurs as a HC with one 8-5 year? FWIW, neither would have been on my short list, but of the 2, TODAY, I'd have gone with Gill. We shall see.
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Post by fort on Dec 16, 2008 13:28:44 GMT -6
I like Gill as a coach and he seems like a truly great guy, but everyone is talking about him like he's the next great thing. 2-10, 5-7, 8-5... in the MAC. Doesn't sound like a guy that should be the #1 candidate for a good SEC opening.
From what I understand, Chizik was a great DC at Auburn and they loved him. Why wouldn't they come back to the guy? Given, his two seasons at ISU were horrid.
This just seems like a guy who didn't deserve the job beat out another guy who didn't deserve the job, but the one who didn't get it is having the race card pulled for him. None of this is necessary.
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Post by phantom on Dec 16, 2008 14:13:51 GMT -6
Best of luck to him At ISU his teams didnt show progress at all In previous 10 years the program aggregate was nearly.500 With a very weak schedule, they never approached that with Chizek, were not competitive I may be biased, McCarney recruited Omaha heavily and was always doing radio interviews here, impressive focused guy. It seems it's rare for ISU to be competitive. Again, Chizik wouldn't have been my choice, but I'm going to reserve judgement. Hemlock, You're correct on most counts I think. Still, Gill had 2 losing seasons going in to this year...did he earn his spurs as a HC with one 8-5 year? FWIW, neither would have been on my short list, but of the 2, TODAY, I'd have gone with Gill. We shall see. You need to understand just how bad Buffalo was before Gill got there.
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Post by davecisar on Dec 16, 2008 14:16:50 GMT -6
Come now with Gill look where he started at. Do you know anything about Buffalo football? No, no one did, they were horrific and on the brink of dumping the program.
Team had NEVER had a winning season in its DI history He got them off a 1 win season, the 4 years before he got there: 1-10 2-9 1-11 1-11 And getting Blown out Under Gill: 2-9 5-7 8-5 is pretty descent when you look at the details and look at the point differential changes Kids there beleive in the Guy, he can coach.
No facilites, no fans very small recruiting base, Im sure Buffalo is a great place but for most recruits when they think Buffalo they think snow cold snow cold, not football zero base or history etc What Gill has done there is nothing short of amazing If you go beyond the surface and study the details they are really quite profound MAc football is no slouch.
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Post by hemlock on Dec 16, 2008 14:22:48 GMT -6
No offense Fort, but you really are oversimplifying things. If you read my post in detail, you would see that race is not the only issue. "Fit" covers lots of things. Plus, as phantom noted, Buffalo was nothing before Gill got there. Three years and MAC championship. That's fine coaching by any metric. Moreover, he made them competitive by year two - last year may be more impressive than this.
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Post by davecisar on Dec 16, 2008 14:23:23 GMT -6
Best of luck to him At ISU his teams didnt show progress at all In previous 10 years the program aggregate was nearly.500 With a very weak schedule, they never approached that with Chizek, were not competitive I may be biased, McCarney recruited Omaha heavily and was always doing radio interviews here, impressive focused guy. It seems it's rare for ISU to be competitive. Again, Chizik wouldn't have been my choice, but I'm going to reserve judgement. Hemlock, You're correct on most counts I think. Still, Gill had 2 losing seasons going in to this year...did he earn his spurs as a HC with one 8-5 year? FWIW, neither would have been on my short list, but of the 2, TODAY, I'd have gone with Gill. We shall see. 5 of the 10 years, 1/2 the time. they were .500 or above and Bowl eligble. They didnt sniff at competitive under Chizek. Hope ISU gets a good one, good folks up there. They deserve better. For Chizek best of luck to him too. If you go beyond the surface and look at the details, Gills accomplishments as a coach are just huge.
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Post by fort on Dec 16, 2008 14:45:43 GMT -6
No offense Fort, but you really are oversimplifying things. If you read my post in detail, you would see that race is not the only issue. "Fit" covers lots of things. Plus, as phantom noted, Buffalo was nothing before Gill got there. Three years and MAC championship. That's fine coaching by any metric. Moreover, he made them competitive by year two - last year may be more impressive than this. Like I said, I'm a big fan of Gill, but I'm not understanding why people were just expecting Auburn to hand him the program. Neither one of them really deserved the job (yet... for Gill anyway), IMO. Chizik was supposedly an old favorite of theirs. If they were going to hire an undeserving coach anyway, why not take the guy they know and who did great things for the program in the past? I'd love to see Gill take over a better program, and I'm certain he'll get that chance in the near future, but this one? All things equal, I take Gill over Chizik, but when you factor in the fact that Chizik did great things for Auburn in the past and supposedly won a lot of people over during his time there, I just don't understand what the big public outcry is.
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Post by fort on Dec 16, 2008 14:53:03 GMT -6
I should add that I've got no clue about the overall situation in Auburn; all the politics and what not, so these are just personal surface observations. Before anyone jumps on it, "undeserving" is too strong a word in my last post. I just don't think either guy would have been big splashes. Though anytime you hire a HC with a losing record, that's not quite the splash you want to make, either.
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Post by hemlock on Dec 16, 2008 18:38:52 GMT -6
Gill was but one qualified candidate. There were others, each way more qualified than Chizik. That's the point. Gill is highlighted simply because he clearly was qualified, but did not get the big gig. This simply underscores what people have been talking about for some time - when a black coach gets an opportunity, for the most part, it is at some downtrodden program that is going through a really tough patch. Here was an opportunity where a guy was clearly ready for a prime time job who lost it not to another qualified white guy, but a white guy who really has demonstrated that he can polish his boots.
Had Patterson gotten the job there would have been some grumbling, but nothing too over the top.
As I noted earlier, the issue upon which this debate pivots is the word "fit."
Chizik may have done great things has Auburn's DC, but in reality, who has not in that job. Muschamp came in and did great and so did Paul Rhodes this year. The point is that ISU has regressed under Chizik. Now, to be totally fare, he inherited a program that was starting to trend down. McCarney did a heroic job there, but fresh blood was needed. So Chizik inherited cupboard that while not empty, was by no means full and overflowing with ready to use merchandise.
Speaking of "fit," I never thought that he was a good fit for ISU. McCarney was a good "fit" for that place; his personality, work eithic, character (other than the little domestic abuse thing he had, but which he sought earnestly to correct when he got there), etc.
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Post by outlawjoseywales on Dec 16, 2008 20:01:08 GMT -6
It is a shame that there are not more African-American head coaches in D1 college and in the NFL.
It is also a shame that Turner Gill, who I hear is acting well above the fracus, is being used by individuals who desire Auburn's demise. Coach Gill I'm sure, is a fine man, what I hear about him he is well spoken of, does not desire to be brought into all this.
However: Nebraska didn't hire him last year. Alabama didn't hire him 2 years ago. Tennessee didn't hire him this year.
Why not? Are those programs racist for not doing so? I certainly don't think so. We have come a long way in this country. It is also a shame that the "race-card" is being played currently by media members in the state of Alabama.
There are many programs that haven't been attacked in the way Auburn University has been attacked though. Auburn has just made themselves a wonderful target though, well at least for another day or so. Don't think for a minute that "the machine" doesn't have their nasty fingers all over this one.
While all the other universities just skate away without even a notice. Why?
OJW
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Post by knighter on Dec 17, 2008 9:05:06 GMT -6
Hemlock-
Coach Mac was a terrific coach. He would have continued to have his teams in bowl games every other year or two at ISU. Chizik was a HORRIBLE hire at ISU. Having worked camps for both he and Coach Mac I can tell you I am a Coach Mac guy. Chizik was a good guy, but not near the outgoing personality that Mac had. Chizik was more of a "Big Timer" than Mac was. Mac was at every practice session of his camps, and was in the offices to drink cold beverages and eat pizza or wings every night to talk some football. Chizik was there for 15 minutes on first day and 15 minutes on last day and not seen in between at all. At ISU that does not fit, nor does it work.
ISU is not as bad a job as everyone makes it out to be. You can win there, and someone will. Lowest FB budget in Big 12 doesn't help. But it is not a bad job. Again Chizik was a good guy, had several good conversations with him, he has a good football mind. But he was not a good "fit" at ISU. Mac left some big shoes to follow, as winning or losing he always had such a positive and dynamic personality. And he LOVED Ames, Iowa and ISU. Turned down better jobs to stay. If I were Pollard I would be BEGGING Mac to come back, but Pollard is a pompous a$$ who will now be in search of the next "big name" to come to ISU and use it as a stepping stone. ISU deserves better. (and that comes from a Hawk fan)
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 17, 2008 10:42:19 GMT -6
It seems it's rare for ISU to be competitive. Again, Chizik wouldn't have been my choice, but I'm going to reserve judgement. Hemlock, You're correct on most counts I think. Still, Gill had 2 losing seasons going in to this year...did he earn his spurs as a HC with one 8-5 year? FWIW, neither would have been on my short list, but of the 2, TODAY, I'd have gone with Gill. We shall see. You need to understand just how bad Buffalo was before Gill got there. I do! Read my last sentence. Problem for me is...neither Chizik, nor Gill would have been on my wish list.
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Post by warrior53 on Dec 17, 2008 15:10:50 GMT -6
ISU isn't as bad as everyone thinks? poor budget, can't compete in their own backyard for recruits, I don't know about their facilities there, but they used to be at the bottom of the barrell. What is good about that job? I am not trying to pick a fight, but I have never heard anyone say that it was a good job.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 17, 2008 15:32:10 GMT -6
Hemlock- Coach Mac was a terrific coach. He would have continued to have his teams in bowl games every other year or two at ISU. Chizik was a HORRIBLE hire at ISU. Having worked camps for both he and Coach Mac I can tell you I am a Coach Mac guy. Chizik was a good guy, but not near the outgoing personality that Mac had. Chizik was more of a "Big Timer" than Mac was. Mac was at every practice session of his camps, and was in the offices to drink cold beverages and eat pizza or wings every night to talk some football. Chizik was there for 15 minutes on first day and 15 minutes on last day and not seen in between at all. At ISU that does not fit, nor does it work. ISU is not as bad a job as everyone makes it out to be. You can win there, and someone will. Lowest FB budget in Big 12 doesn't help. But it is not a bad job. Again Chizik was a good guy, had several good conversations with him, he has a good football mind. But he was not a good "fit" at ISU. Mac left some big shoes to follow, as winning or losing he always had such a positive and dynamic personality. And he LOVED Ames, Iowa and ISU. Turned down better jobs to stay. If I were Pollard I would be BEGGING Mac to come back, but Pollard is a pompous a$$ who will now be in search of the next "big name" to come to ISU and use it as a stepping stone. ISU deserves better. (and that comes from a Hawk fan) I don't know much about the McCarney guy, but there's not a school in the SEC (including Vandy and MSU) that would have given him a 6th season, maybe not a 5th, and many not even a 4th when he started out 3-8, 2-9, 1-10, 3-8, 4-7. It would seem to me that looking at it objectively (just as a coach) that there's no way you can look at a snapshot of their first couple of seasons at ISU and call McCarney a great coach, but Chizik not. Must be something to this McCarney guy though...he got 12 years before they ran him.
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Post by Coach JR on Dec 17, 2008 15:33:08 GMT -6
ISU isn't as bad as everyone thinks? poor budget, can't compete in their own backyard for recruits, I don't know about their facilities there, but they used to be at the bottom of the barrell. What is good about that job? I am not trying to pick a fight, but I have never heard anyone say that it was a good job. Sounds like the definition of a "bad job" to me.
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Post by tog on Dec 17, 2008 15:34:58 GMT -6
ok i think this thread has run its course
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