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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2008 13:38:36 GMT -6
Lets say you are at a school where you have around 30 kids left after the seniors leave..
You try to implement a before or after school off season.. you make it mandatory.. and then over half tell you they either cant or wont come before or stay after school.
What do you do? You back up on your stance.. or start job hunting?
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Post by coachorr on Dec 1, 2008 13:55:42 GMT -6
Stay, especially if you only have one year of experience with that school. Try to stay two or three more years to see if your change in structure will pay dividends one day.
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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2008 14:01:15 GMT -6
Stay, especially if you only have one year of experience with that school. Try to stay two or three more years to see if your change in structure will pay dividends one day. My problem though, is that I already laid down the law.. so if they dont show up today.. do I follow the law and end up with only 15 kids on the team.. at a 4A school? Or do I say screw it and let those who dont show up just play? Will less show up now knowing that they can get away with it? |
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Post by hustleandheart on Dec 1, 2008 14:16:44 GMT -6
For those who "can't" make it, why not? For those who don't want to, why do they want to skip it?
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Post by Wingtman on Dec 1, 2008 14:27:23 GMT -6
Reward the kids that DO show up. Set it like at 30 workouts. Those kids who make their 30 get a t-shirt or something. Better yet, when camp rolls around, you have a make up workout after practice for those who didnt. Make it short, but suck. That way everyone gets their workout in, and you still reward those who showed up.
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Post by dcoach505 on Dec 1, 2008 14:45:07 GMT -6
We did exactly what CATCOACH did. We also allowed the kids that had the most workouts in to get their equipment first regardless of class and skill.
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Post by ajreaper on Dec 1, 2008 14:57:45 GMT -6
If you want to change the culture stick to your guns get those young kids involved before they catch that "I could give a crap attitude" everyone wants to play and win on Friday nights but not everyone is willing to do what is required to legitimately compete and be successful.
Get down into your feeder programs and start talking to those kids and cater to your freshman and every upperclassmen that is willing to work to build something. From what I can recall those no show kids were not making a big difference in the number of W's you had this season so play with kids you can respect and trust and send the rest packing.
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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2008 15:04:33 GMT -6
If you want to change the culture stick to your guns get those young kids involved before they catch that "I could give a crap attitude" everyone wants to play and win on Friday nights but not everyone is willing to do what is required to legitimately compete and be successful. Get down into your feeder programs and start talking to those kids and cater to your freshman and every upperclassmen that is willing to work to build something. From what I can recall those no show kids were not making a big difference in the number of W's you had this season so play with kids you can respect and trust and send the rest packing. There is no set feeder school.. only had 13 freshmen players this year.. Most of the "cants" are.. I cant get up that early.. |
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Post by brophy on Dec 1, 2008 15:08:19 GMT -6
start assigning pride points or don't offer ultimatums that you aren't willing to back up (meaning...if YOU can live with/abide it, then cool).
Just an ancillary question, what was your post-season feedback like from your underclassmen (and about their commitment status for next year)?
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Post by CVBears on Dec 1, 2008 15:08:10 GMT -6
First of all, this is from the outside looking in. Only you know the "real" situation and you have to lay in the bed after you make it. but...
if the "can't" is legit, let the kid play. If he is truly dedicated, there will be a time when he can make it. Stay in constant communication with the kid.
If the "can't" is like you said, "I can't get up that early" then those players don't need to be around.
Stick to your guns and what you believe in. There is a reason that you are requiring certain things of your boys, to create the type of program that you want to run. If you don't run it the way you see best fit, then how is the program being run?
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Post by fbdoc on Dec 1, 2008 15:21:08 GMT -6
Those 15 players that do show up have told you that they are willing to do what you ask. They are also going to be your leaders. Let THEM come up with a way to allow the others to rejoin the team - the 2009 season isn't here yet so figure out how to "Restore" these young men. If there's make up work involved then let them choose - they either want to be on the team or they don't. If they truly "can't" make a morning / afternoon session - some kids don't have a car - then try to figure out a win-win solution.
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Post by tog on Dec 1, 2008 15:25:44 GMT -6
Those 15 players that do show up have told you that they are willing to do what you ask. They are also going to be your leaders. Let THEM come up with a way to allow the others to rejoin the team - the 2009 season isn't here yet so figure out how to "Restore" these young men. If there's make up work involved then let them choose - they either want to be on the team or they don't. If they truly "can't" make a morning / afternoon session - some kids don't have a car - then try to figure out a win-win solution. wise advice build up some pride in the ones that do show up and then don't cut off your nose to spite your face let those kids find a way to bring back the others that simply made a poor choice versus the plain lazy |
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Post by mwpilots on Dec 1, 2008 16:39:00 GMT -6
I had a similar situation this season. The best advice that I got was from another coach. He said, "always do things the right way, no matter what your numbers look like and it will build from there." We have been in the off-season for a month and I have a bunch of kids who did not telling me that they want to play next season.
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Post by jgordon1 on Dec 1, 2008 18:04:32 GMT -6
Hate to be the party pooper, how can you make lifting mandatory in the off-season. If you kick the kids off, I am not sure the AD/ principal will back you on that especially reading your other posts. It sounds to me like you have painted yourself in a corner. IMO never a wise idea to give ultimatums. I have to guess that your assistants are behind you in this. I need to tell you I have been a career asst w/ no head coaching experience but from what I can tell it is a lot easier for an asst to suggest an ultimatum than for a HC. I do like the suggestions that Brophy and Jenkins make
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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2008 19:43:03 GMT -6
start assigning pride points or don't offer ultimatums that you aren't willing to back up (meaning...if YOU can live with/abide it, then cool). Just an ancillary question, what was your post-season feedback like from your underclassmen (and about their commitment status for next year)? Everyone is of the opinion that the reason our season turned out like it did is because everyone else was stronger than us.. bottom line.. They were all pumped and nodding their heads during our pre-holiday meeting.. But now when its time to put in the work.. a good many are not willing to invest now in something that wont come until next Sept.. There basically is no excuse in not being here.. our school is a neighborhood school and most of our kids living within walking distance.. The excuses become very convenient for some... Its not like I am saying.. "Hey.. be here everyday at 7am" I am saying.. be here either at 7:15am or after school on Mon - Thurs.. I have roughly 15 kids in my 7th hour "football" class and they do it because they have to.. But if those 15 "had" to come after school.. they too might find an excuse.. They are threatening to take away athletic period next year.. so this problem of all or none might come to the surface.. |
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Post by airraider on Dec 1, 2008 19:45:59 GMT -6
Hate to be the party pooper, how can you make lifting mandatory in the off-season. If you kick the kids off, I am not sure the AD/ principal will back you on that especially reading your other posts. It sounds to me like you have painted yourself in a corner. IMO never a wise idea to give ultimatums. I have to guess that your assistants are behind you in this. I need to tell you I have been a career asst w/ no head coaching experience but from what I can tell it is a lot easier for an asst to suggest an ultimatum than for a HC. I do like the suggestions that Brophy and Jenkins make Not really kicking them off.. mandatory as in.. if they dont do it.. they have to make it up with extra work.. Had a kid today tell me he wasnt going to do any make up work.. because it wasnt his fault he had to go home and watch his little sister.. So to me.. you refuse to do something.. you quit.. Ive never "kicked off" a kid.. there is always a proper consequence.. and if they refuse to take part.. then they quit.. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 1, 2008 20:03:44 GMT -6
Air
I am currently working at a k-5 school with a similar socio-economic profile...and I know what you are going through. Unfortunately, the thought processes and higher order thinking skills that they develop from their home life is limited. It is hard to get them to see things such as : "This is not punishment, you are doing make up work because you ACTUALLY MISSED THE FREAKING WORK"
I feel for you...
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Post by bigm0073 on Dec 1, 2008 20:23:21 GMT -6
Stick by your GUNS!! If you say it, follow through with it!! With all of these excuses you have I would do the following:
1. Lay it down it see what happens.
You might have to consider if this is the right situation for you... I was at a school like yours and made workouts MANDATORY!! I basically have the power cut players. I tell players if you do NOT hit your workouts I will NOT let you come to any spring camps (Line and passing) or 7 on 7 or our team camp in July... Once the season starts I tell them I WILL CUT YOU after the 3rd day of practice. If the kids buy into what you do they WILL be there. At my prior program I made these workouts mandatory and it turned us around in two years (Started 16 sophomores my first two years).
My new school we went 1-9 this past year (Started 17 sophomores and freshmen). Met with EACH kid individually before Thanksgiving and today was our first day. Over 65 kids showed up after school (We had 5 kids on a field trip who came back after 4:00 PM and they ran in to get their core lifts in!) They know the line
Stick to your guns!! It will pay off!! Remember you only need 11 to play!!
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Dec 1, 2008 20:50:50 GMT -6
Air
You said it- now you have to stick with it. Talk the kids up that are coming to the weight room. They are showing you their leadership by coming to voluntary workouts. Let them tighten the screws on their lazy teammates. Hopefully those fools will start showing up under the peer pressure. If not then pull the trigger and don't play them.
The consequences of not being in the weight room obviously are not enough to motivate them. They obviously don't care that they got pushed around all year. These guys don't trust you you either- if they trusted you they'd heed your word and not test you with bull$hit excuses. To be honest- F@ck'em and worry about the guys that show up- They're the core of your team!
I think that is the underlying issue- seems like a LACK OF TRUST- you don't trust those kids and they don't trust you. They need to earn your trust or they don't play...they're either with you or not, and right now their actions scream not. Let them and the rest of your team know- "Johnny, you are making a choice not to be here...I don't trust that you want to be a part of this program and help us get better..."
I'd be lying if I said that 100% of my team, year to year, commits to the weightroom/offseason. They don't! But dammit I coach the $hit out of the ones that do and it makes them better. That's all you can do. They HAVE to buy in at some point to make your program a success. Give it your best, and if it ain't enough to get these turds moving then ignore/cut them and play with your 15 tough SOB's that trust in YOU.
Goodluck to you coach
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Post by coachorr on Dec 1, 2008 21:07:00 GMT -6
This is a little bit of a brain storm here so it is not a complete coherent thought. Don't shoot the messenger.
I know some people have touched on this with t-shirts and what not, but what about incentives to get these kids to come into lift weights. Do you have any access to other funds besides the AD's wish fund, which your football team contributes to? Could you work out a rewards system.
Someone had a great system for this on here. He basically counted up all of the days to lift and figured out the percentage and determined what the consequence would be.
Could you do this with rewards?
Say you have 100 days of lifting between now and whenever. Well count the days and ask the kids to be their 80% of the time or have a running total as shown below:
First 20 days of lifting= T-shirt
Second 20 Days = $20.00 gift certificate to Walmart
Third 20 days = $40.00 gift cert to Applebees
Fourth 20 days = Underarmour Shirt with name and #
Fifth 20 Days = Nike Jacket with Name and #
Post attendance and give out rewards for best attendance and most increase in lifts, most weights lifted in a poundage club. Get plaques to put up in the weight room and create different weight limits Like 1000 pound club, 1200 pound club, 1300 pound club etc.
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Post by coachtut on Dec 1, 2008 21:28:08 GMT -6
This is a great topic. I don't think enough can be said about building those kids up that do show up. If it's 5 kids, big deal. Give them first pick at gear, give 'em a shirt or some under armour and build them up. Let them know that their attitudes are what make a great football team. We all know these kids may not be your most valuable players but they are really the rock for everyone else to to stand on. Once again they may not be the most valuable or most popular but God help the players that I catch calling them a kiss A$$ or putting down those players in any way because of their own jealousy or laziness. God help them  |
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Post by ajreaper on Dec 1, 2008 21:57:34 GMT -6
LOL, my guys would trade with yours- they are in at 6:15 everyday year round (well in the summer I cut them some slack and have them come in at 7am and I give them two weeks off right after our season ends then it's back at it) In addition many will put in another hour and a quarter after school 5 days a week- 3 working explosive lifts and 2 speed and agility and for the afternoon program they pay $20 a month to participate. My expectation is if you are not playing another sport at that time you will participate in the off season program in addition to thier str. and conditioning class. Succes has a price and it is not cheap.
Now if they elect not to participate I let them know it's thier choice however when they are not playing come the fall I do not want to hear a peep from them or thier parents.
If we passed out $20 to every kid when they completed "voluntary" workouts everyday how many kids "could not make it" how many would forget to set thier alarm clocks? How many would think 7:15 was to early? It's not about "wanting to" it's about "willing to" nothing more and nothing less.
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Post by 19delta on Dec 1, 2008 22:02:51 GMT -6
The problem, as I see it, is that, while the kids "know" they have to lift, they really don't see the results yet. Remember, kids today don't want to wait...they want INSTANT gratification and that's not gonna happen.
What I would do is to not worry about the kids who AREN'T there...you can't control that...granted, there are things you can do to get those guys in the weight room but then, when you get them in there, you have the problem of motivating them to work hard and not play graba$$ for an hour...IMO, getting the kids into the weightroom is not the problem. It's getting them to work hard once they are there because a lot of those kids really don't want to be there anyway and are just satisfying some requirement.
No...instead of concentrating on what you should be doing to get the lazy kids who aren't lifting in there, you should instead concentrate on those 15 kids you do have in there. Get those kids strong, tough, and confident. Invest in those kids...once the other kids who aren't lifting see the kids who are lifting having fun and getting results, the word will spread.
So, that's what I think you need to do...take all of that time and effort you have been wasting on getting those lazy kids in the weightroom and pour it into the kids who want to be there. The investment will pay off...those kids will be your best spokemen once they start seeing results.
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Post by coachtut on Dec 1, 2008 22:04:15 GMT -6
LOL, my guys would trade with yours- they are in at 6:15 everyday year round (well in the summer I cut them some slack and have them come in at 7am and I give them two weeks off right after our season ends then it's back at it) In addition many will put in another hour and a quarter after school 5 days a week- 3 working explosive lifts and 2 speed and agility and for the afternoon program they pay $20 a month to participate. My expectation is if you are not playing another sport at that time you will participate in the off season program in addition to thier str. and conditioning class. Succes has a price and it is not cheap. Now if they elect not to participate I let them know it's thier choice however when they are not playing come the fall I do not want to hear a peep from them or thier parents. If we passed out $20 to every kid when they completed "voluntary" workouts everyday how many kids "could not make it" how many would forget to set thier alarm clocks? How many would think 7:15 was to early? It's not about "wanting to" it's about "willing to" nothing more and nothing less. WELL SAID! Especially the part about letting PARENTS KNOW if Johnny isn't playing basketball or baseball and he is missing lifting sessions that Johnny and his parents can't complain about PT! Nice insight. |
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Post by 19delta on Dec 1, 2008 22:08:22 GMT -6
LOL, my guys would trade with yours- they are in at 6:15 everyday year round (well in the summer I cut them some slack and have them come in at 7am and I give them two weeks off right after our season ends then it's back at it) In addition many will put in another hour and a quarter after school 5 days a week- 3 working explosive lifts and 2 speed and agility and for the afternoon program they pay $20 a month to participate. My expectation is if you are not playing another sport at that time you will participate in the off season program in addition to thier str. and conditioning class. Succes has a price and it is not cheap. Now if they elect not to participate I let them know it's thier choice however when they are not playing come the fall I do not want to hear a peep from them or thier parents. If we passed out $20 to every kid when they completed "voluntary" workouts everyday how many kids "could not make it" how many would forget to set thier alarm clocks? How many would think 7:15 was to early? It's not about "wanting to" it's about "willing to" nothing more and nothing less. WELL SAID! Especially the part about letting PARENTS KNOW if Johnny isn't playing basketball or baseball and he is missing lifting sessions that Johnny and his parents can't complain about PT! Nice insight. I have worked in a district that is very similar to where airraider is at...in low-income districts, there typically isn't a strong family at home and the adults in the kids' lives are often not really effective authority figures. Contacting parents in those kinds of districts typically won't accomplish much. |
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Post by coachorr on Dec 1, 2008 22:26:13 GMT -6
Amen Delta
"No...instead of concentrating on what you should be doing to get the lazy kids who aren't lifting in there, you should instead concentrate on those 15 kids you do have in there. "
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Post by coachsky on Dec 2, 2008 1:51:19 GMT -6
In our district we can't make kids workout in the off season.
We do offer T-shirts, fun outings, food, and a chance to get better. We track participation levels. We were going to go 3 days a week in December and January. Kids have asked for more. So we are now 5 days a week.
Last year we had three very average baseball kids lose starting spots to kids who lifted most of the year. Those guys are going into their Senior year they are pretty sure we have a shot for a strong run in the playoffs. They don't want to ride the pine their senior year and know threat we have some really good kids coming up. They are begging to get in the weight room. They know the kids who worked out outweighed them with 20 lbs of muscle. Our Sophomore lineman know the only way to see the varsity field is to gain 20-30 lbs of muscle. We don't have to say a lot. They get it.
I say create an environment where kids can take personal responsibility and gain pride in their work ethic, without coaches having to light that fire. It's a better environment, let them hold each other accountable and do it because the see and understand the value of hard work.
I don''t like Mandatory off season stuff. I want kids to want to be in the weight room. I want them to be there for each other. That what we built last year. Funnest day this season were Saturday mornings at 8:45am having 75 to 90 kids there working out. Training room open also. Krispy cremes and chocolate milk for first team no scores. We never took attendance. IF kids had to work or wanted to go to their lil sisters soccer games, that was cool. Film from night before on. We were having to kick the kids out at 11:30.
I say create an environment where they want to be there. Do you have to have pull low character kids aside that doesn't get it, sure. When they understand that you are more than willing to pass them by for the kids that works, they get it. IF you consistent, they get it. IF you make exceptions and favor or coddle a great athlete, they see that, they are so much smarter than we give them credit for.
We want our kids to play multiple sports, they just have to get in their when they can and make an effort their teammates can respect.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Dec 2, 2008 4:59:20 GMT -6
IF YOU BELIEVE IT YOU CAN ACHIEVE IT.
Ok you have a culture where kids believe that "why do the work, we are going to get our asses kicked anyhow."
You have to start there, you do the work so YOU WONT GET YOUR ASS KICKED. You are also going to have to do something to create some confidence in you and your methods on the field. (you mentioned becoming more of a ball control team?) I think too that you are going to have to create a new atmosphere where its fun to be included in the program. "They do not care how much you know until they know how much you care" is something to really breathe in. Do they know how much you care?
Make it clear, FOOTBALL TAKES WORK, WINNING TAKES WORK because YOU refuse to put weaklings and loafers on the field.
You made it "manditory" to attend those workouts so follow through just like every other coach in the country by holding the kids accountable.
Kids have a choice, they make the choice and live with it.
1) choose not to play,(participate) too much work involved. Too hard.
2) choose to play(participate) and a) workout now in the weight room and be rewarded with things like first choice of gear and no field clean up or b) miss workouts now and have MORE WORK later as in gassers, suicides, hills, bleechers and field clean up, water duty etc. In addition suffer the likely hood that playing time will be reduced because YOU DONT KNOW THEM AND THEIR TEAMMATES DONT KNOW THEM.
Football comes down to 'who can you trust" and in most cases you will have a very small core of kids on a team, you must build that core.
I have a core of kids , very small, that lifts every day. Those kids will absolutely be my captains and do no extra conditioning (though my guess, they will ask to do it anyhow) and do no field clean up (my guess, they will lead the field clean up) The idea is to have those kids lead and a few quality kids will follow.
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Post by brophy on Dec 2, 2008 5:08:23 GMT -6
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Post by bigm0073 on Dec 2, 2008 7:34:13 GMT -6
One thing too....
Have they bought into your program? Do they believe in you and what you are doing? It is kind of deep but you have to ask yourself that question.
I truly believe if they believe in you and your system there will be less battles to fight. Sure you will have some along the way but most will be there because they want to win and believe this is the best course.
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