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Post by dubber on Oct 28, 2008 12:36:35 GMT -6
Coaches,
I would like to discuss the Single Wing, and I'm all over the place with questions, so I thought I'd start a thread where we can relate thoughts/ideas about this creature. I want to know how people defend it, how they attack with it, formational variations, different series (straight, half-spin, full-spin, etc.)....
Mainly, I am working to become an OC in a few years, and would love to hash out a SW/spread marriage. I know of some coaches on here who do something like that, and I would love to hear your experiences.
I know the Florida Gators run SW concepts out of traditional spread sets (10, 11, 12 personnel etc.), and I like that, but for the spread portion of my offense I prefer a couple fo things:
*5-man surface.......I run a no-TE offense
*Change between spread and SW WITHOUT subbing personnel.....I love no huddle, and I love the thought of running speed option first down, curl-flat second down, and then hopping into SW on the next first down and running Spinner Power. All while not huddling. I feel that is extremely stressful on a defense.
Part of my thought process (thus far, that is why I am asking the largest coaching staff in the world for their opinion) comes from the early influences in my coaching life:
-What first got me interested in coaching was the Short Punt, which my high school use to base out of, but still used sparingly up until the mid-00's. I was introduced to it my freshman year, and I thought "WOW, I've never seen anything like this before!" My imagination was ignited.
-The second influence comes from Stewart "Red" Faught of Franklin College and Run and Shoot fame.
He saw the need for a GL formation, but was faced with the problem of NEVER having a TE-type player on his roster. His solution was this:
---Y-O-X-O-O-O-----------X
--------Q---------B
---A---R
So, I want to go from something like this:
X-----------------O-O-X-O-O----------------Y
--------A-----------------------------B
------------------------Q---R
To something like this:
-----Q-O-X-O-O-O-----Y
-------------R--------X
---------A-B
Yes, my QB is now playing TE, but that is just based on potential personnel for next year's team. Most of the time our QB is a great runner and would stay in the backfield, but anyway.......
So basically, I have two aims in this thread:
1.) People will post ideas about the SW/spread marriage and how they have seen that work out.
[Is it "too much" offense? Is it doable with the same personnel? etc.]
2.) Share stories about how they first interacted with the SW. I guess the SW got me interested in coaching, so it will always be special to me as my "existential coaching moment". I know one gentleman who posted on here months ago ran it with kids on an Indian reservation, and commented how the SW "saved his life".
Look forward to the responses.
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Post by superpower on Oct 28, 2008 13:52:45 GMT -6
Coach, if you pm me I will send you an email address for Mark Bliss. He has already meshed the SW with the spread. Coach Bliss is now the head coach at Edwardsville, IL.
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dragon
Sophomore Member
Posts: 187
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Post by dragon on Oct 29, 2008 12:04:50 GMT -6
Dubber,
This is also something I've been perusing as of late. This year we've become a gun-jet team, using four running back's to make our offense go. We pass just enough to keep teams honest to our spread sets. I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate more single wing action into the offense next year.
The biggest dilema I've come up against is if you're QB is not your best RB where do you put him when you want to line up and run off-tackle, seam bucks, and so on.
I was not only looking at Spread to SW, but also using a Spread SW set with an unbalanced line and some other things. I think this kind of offense would require a QB who is an adequate passer, but more usable as a threat to run, has great ball handling skills, and is agile. I'd love to be able to run jet from the gun, but also toy with full spin and half-spin stuff as well. I know it's a lot, but I completely agree with dubber that to do this out of a no-huddle, like we've been this year could be really deadly.
My question for you to start Dubber, what kind of run game are you looking at out of the Spread? Zone scheme, or more block down - kick out type blocking?
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Post by dubber on Oct 29, 2008 17:10:12 GMT -6
I was thinking of running the two together. Either combine the two or have a SW set you go to.......
-----------Y-O-X-O-O-O----------X
-------------------R-----------A-----------Z
----------------Q
Out of this set, you have trips passing to the front side. Run wise, you have the QB sweep, QB power to both sides, Wedge.
-----------Y-O-X-O-O-O----------X
-A-----------------R----------------------Z
----------------Q
Out of this set you have Shallow concept (essentially like slide blocking with the R picking up Y's DE) you can go jet and go half spin, etc.
All you are doing is going unbalanced line with a BB.......the rest is all your Air Raid or Run and Shoot concepts, whatever......
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Post by dubber on Oct 29, 2008 17:13:53 GMT -6
Dubber, This is also something I've been perusing as of late. This year we've become a gun-jet team, using four running back's to make our offense go. We pass just enough to keep teams honest to our spread sets. I've been trying to think of ways to incorporate more single wing action into the offense next year. The biggest dilema I've come up against is if you're QB is not your best RB where do you put him when you want to line up and run off-tackle, seam bucks, and so on. I was not only looking at Spread to SW, but also using a Spread SW set with an unbalanced line and some other things. I think this kind of offense would require a QB who is an adequate passer, but more usable as a threat to run, has great ball handling skills, and is agile. I'd love to be able to run jet from the gun, but also toy with full spin and half-spin stuff as well. I know it's a lot, but I completely agree with dubber that to do this out of a no-huddle, like we've been this year could be really deadly. My question for you to start Dubber, what kind of run game are you looking at out of the Spread? Zone scheme, or more block down - kick out type blocking? Dragon you seem to be in the same boat as us. I love zone, but we like to pull kids and kick out. Our favorite jet play isn't even the sweep, it is the QB Iso behind it to the frontside. Basically I'm not changing much from our current offense, just using an unbalanced line and a BB |
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Post by eaglemountie on Oct 29, 2008 18:14:17 GMT -6
Dubber we are in the same boat as you in wanting to be able to line up in single wing and spread at any time but we also want the ability to run the buck lateral series at any time from any formation we are in.
I know it sounds as though we are limiting ourselves to only a few formations but the more we look at different sets its more than possible.
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Post by superpower on Oct 29, 2008 18:19:37 GMT -6
Coaches,
I should have checked with Coach Bliss before I offered to provide his email address. I don't want to burden him with a ton of email requests for info, so I will no longer be providing his email address. If you wish to contact him, you can look him up at Edwardsville High School in Illiinois.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 29, 2008 18:37:37 GMT -6
I was thinking of running the two together. Either combine the two or have a SW set you go to....... -----------Y-O-X-O-O-O----------X -------------------R-----------A-----------Z ----------------Q Out of this set, you have trips passing to the front side. Run wise, you have the QB sweep, QB power to both sides, Wedge. -----------Y-O-X-O-O-O----------X -A-----------------R----------------------Z ----------------Q Out of this set you have Shallow concept (essentially like slide blocking with the R picking up Y's DE) you can go jet and go half spin, etc. All you are doing is going unbalanced line with a BB.......the rest is all your Air Raid or Run and Shoot concepts, whatever...... At the youth level we ran your second set the last 2 seasons and ran lots of JEt series plays out of it, Jet Sweep, Power -trap- wedge- counter under jet and of course flood and play action passes as well. We even made the power tackle eligible and ran shallow concept with him We of course also ran tradional UB SW with power, t-series 1/2 spin and full spin series. |
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dragon
Sophomore Member
Posts: 187
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Post by dragon on Oct 29, 2008 19:47:08 GMT -6
Dubber,
A question for you, since you mentioned the no-huddle, would communicating to the O-line that you were moving from a balanced set to an unbalanced set be just like signalling in a formation and having the QB alert whichever linemen needed to move to adjust his position?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Oct 30, 2008 7:38:45 GMT -6
If you get the opportunity, get some 1940-1950 detroit lions and sf 49ers footage. Quite sure that you will see the spread/sw marriage that you speak of.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 30, 2008 10:02:03 GMT -6
No need to go back that far.
There are plenty of Modern Day High School examples including Apopka in Florida and USA Today top 20 Stonebridge, there are clips of the later on utube
Lots of others.
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Post by psbrowning on Oct 30, 2008 10:11:46 GMT -6
Dubber,
I KNOW for a fact it would be easy to formation yourself into a single wing. Have your H back be more of a hybrid guy ( WR/RB). In our offense (AIRRAID), our H lines up in the slot, back field, and if we want him to as a wing back. The question I have is what purpose would it serve you to line up one of your guys as a wing back in the gun? I have thought about the idea of going with 4 WR's and a Wing back to be able to run power, but besides that, that was the only benefit I could see. Please open my eyes and show me what im missing?
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ccox16
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by ccox16 on Oct 30, 2008 10:21:17 GMT -6
You mention Aopoka in here in florida. We just played them last week and took them down to the wire, 37-35 last second FG. They run it extremely well. No foot splits, unbalanced, but can easily split out.
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Post by dubber on Oct 30, 2008 11:51:13 GMT -6
I was thinking of running the two together. Either combine the two or have a SW set you go to....... -----------Y-O-X-O-O-O----------X -------------------R-----------A-----------Z ----------------Q Out of this set, you have trips passing to the front side. Run wise, you have the QB sweep, QB power to both sides, Wedge. -----------Y-O-X-O-O-O----------X -A-----------------R----------------------Z ----------------Q Out of this set you have Shallow concept (essentially like slide blocking with the R picking up Y's DE) you can go jet and go half spin, etc. All you are doing is going unbalanced line with a BB.......the rest is all your Air Raid or Run and Shoot concepts, whatever...... At the youth level we ran your second set the last 2 seasons and ran lots of JEt series plays out of it, Jet Sweep, Power -trap- wedge- counter under jet and of course flood and play action passes as well. We even made the power tackle eligible and ran shallow concept with him We of course also ran tradional UB SW with power, t-series 1/2 spin and full spin series. Thank Dave, it is good to know some are having success with this idea. I really need to go find the Wedge article you wrote from the direct snap website and put it on here......it is pretty good. Wedge XX is a must for any offense with a BB. |
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Post by dubber on Oct 30, 2008 11:58:25 GMT -6
Dubber, A question for you, since you mentioned the no-huddle, would communicating to the O-line that you were moving from a balanced set to an unbalanced set be just like signalling in a formation and having the QB alert whichever linemen needed to move to adjust his position? If I ran a Spread with a SW package, I wouldn't shift, HOWEVER, if I ran Spread SW.......... This is part of my inexperience/experimentation/dumbassary...... I would be unbalanced the entire game. Y-O-X-O-O-O --------R Every SW formation would have this basic look. I would do two things: 1.) Start in an unbalanced T formation: Y-O-X-O-O-O---X -----Q --A--R---B And either run a play, or shift to some SW formation. SInce my line is already to the right, it would be a formation that is right (twins right, trips right, bunch right, spread right, etc.) Or, 2.) I would call out the formation and get them on the ball without a shift......this would be at a NASCAR kind of pace. The thing that troubles me, due to my unfamiliarity with the offense, is pass protection. I am thinking of sending R backside every time (he is really a 3rd OG anyway).......I could keep Y in, or A in, or have all three do it. My question now is: What do I do with a blitz off my strong side edge? I really need to learn more about slide protection, because it may be necessary to accomplish what I want. |
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Post by dubber on Oct 30, 2008 12:06:49 GMT -6
Dubber, I KNOW for a fact it would be easy to formation yourself into a single wing. Have your H back be more of a hybrid guy ( WR/RB). In our offense (AIRRAID), our H lines up in the slot, back field, and if we want him to as a wing back. The question I have is what purpose would it serve you to line up one of your guys as a wing back in the gun? I have thought about the idea of going with 4 WR's and a Wing back to be able to run power, but besides that, that was the only benefit I could see. Please open my eyes and show me what im missing? I assume by wingback you mean a BB, some call it a Sniffer back..... Angles on kick out is the biggest reason I can see......If you scoop the backside up to the LB and leave the backside DE alone, you could run Power versus 7 in the box.... We added a little wrinkle this week for our opponent, where we take our R and put him at a tight slot. From this look X----------------O-O-X-O-O-----------------Y -------A---------------------------------B -----------------------Q---R to this X----------------O-O-X-O-O-----------------Y -------A---------------------R----------B -----------------------Q-- Out of trips (we now call it QUADS, and the aforementioned one is EMPTY......we're pretty smart  ) X----------------O-O-X-O-O---------------------Y ------------------------------R----A------B -----------------------Q-- Mainly this is done to help reach a DE for sprint out and sweep, and to give a different look. We can also run our ISO to the R side, and our middle screen looks even better out of this look. |
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Post by dubber on Oct 30, 2008 12:08:00 GMT -6
Really it boils down to this:
*I want to be different
*I want to compress and expand the defense (in general, stress them out)
*I want 6 guys touching the ball every game
*I want to throw for 400 yard one game and rush for 400 yards the next
*I want to have fun
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Post by dubber on Oct 30, 2008 12:09:24 GMT -6
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ccox16
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by ccox16 on Oct 30, 2008 12:10:36 GMT -6
dont we all?
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Post by dubber on Oct 30, 2008 12:13:25 GMT -6
True. Although sometimes I wonder........ |
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Post by davecisar on Oct 30, 2008 14:17:49 GMT -6
You mention Aopoka in here in florida. We just played them last week and took them down to the wire, 37-35 last second FG. They run it extremely well. No foot splits, unbalanced, but can easily split out. They have a BEAST at TB, DI kid |
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ccox16
Junior Member
Posts: 343
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Post by ccox16 on Oct 30, 2008 14:41:14 GMT -6
he is technically their QB/RB/Wing/WR/DB/KR. His name is Jeremy Gallon and he has already committed to Michigan. They pretty much went to the single just for this kid. The other kid that plays QB, Caleb Nelson, is good as well.
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Post by psbrowning on Oct 30, 2008 17:08:27 GMT -6
Dubber, The whole reason I thought about doing the SW was #1 for protection and # 2 for a different look. I was just trying to weigh out how much stress would it actually put on the defense?  I mean lets think about it, is there really that much difference from the back to be behind a Tackle instead of beside the QB. OR in a 2 back set be behind the Tackle also instead of being beside the QB??? Im not arguing against it. I love the idea. Im just trying to rationalize the pros and the cons. I use Quads and Empty ALOT but when I say wing, I mean putting him behind one of my Tackles for the reasons I stated before. Any thoughts??? |
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Post by eickst on Oct 30, 2008 17:32:57 GMT -6
I like unbalanced sets that place the balance of linemen on one side and the backs/receivers on the other.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Oct 31, 2008 7:35:54 GMT -6
I like unbalanced sets that place the balance of linemen on one side and the backs/receivers on the other. |
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Post by dubber on Oct 31, 2008 10:51:03 GMT -6
Dubber, The whole reason I thought about doing the SW was #1 for protection and # 2 for a different look. I was just trying to weigh out how much stress would it actually put on the defense? I mean lets think about it, is there really that much difference from the back to be behind a Tackle instead of beside the QB. OR in a 2 back set be behind the Tackle also instead of being beside the QB??? Im not arguing against it. I love the idea. Im just trying to rationalize the pros and the cons. I use Quads and Empty ALOT but when I say wing, I mean putting him behind one of my Tackles for the reasons I stated before. Any thoughts??? Yes, the angle helps, in fact, if your BB can just stale mate the DE and keep him from squeezing, you probably just got a positive play. The deception is the unbalanced line, putting mulitple people split out with the ability to still run power, etc. You can snap to mulitple people. Probably no one else in your conference runs it. ETC. |
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Post by dubber on Oct 31, 2008 10:51:52 GMT -6
I like unbalanced sets that place the balance of linemen on one side and the backs/receivers on the other. A gem and an inspiration......the last paragraph of this paper got me thinking along these lines to begin with...... |
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Post by eickst on Oct 31, 2008 14:48:10 GMT -6
I like unbalanced sets that place the balance of linemen on one side and the backs/receivers on the other. So funny ted, I was actually thinking of that when I posted. |
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I mean lets think about it, is there really that much difference from the back to be behind a Tackle instead of beside the QB. OR in a 2 back set be behind the Tackle also instead of being beside the QB??? Im not arguing against it. I love the idea. Im just trying to rationalize the pros and the cons. I use Quads and Empty ALOT but when I say wing, I mean putting him behind one of my Tackles for the reasons I stated before. Any thoughts???