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Post by CVBears on Oct 3, 2008 11:17:00 GMT -6
I'm not sure whether to trade or not. I don't want to trade because we can scout them live (we played thursday this week, they play today). It is not mandated to trade. Is it a jerk move to not trade?
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 3, 2008 11:19:37 GMT -6
coach..I wouldn't say it is a "jerk" move not to trade, but I would say that it probably goes against the "it is all about the kids" attitude that I personally believe in when it comes to schoolboy sports.
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Post by coachcb on Oct 3, 2008 11:23:50 GMT -6
I think that trading needs to be mandatory; I don't see anything negative about it. Honestly, scouting live is great, but there are issues there as well. If you don't have the resources, coaches, or convenient schedule, you may not be able to scout the other teams consistently
Plus, as good as scouting is, it's great to have a film to break down. It's tough to pick up on some of the more subtle tendencies when you scout live; it's better to have a film in front of you.
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Post by cqmiller on Oct 3, 2008 11:26:01 GMT -6
I would trade with them... It only gives you another look at them, and later down the road it may benefit you. They may play an opponent you really need some more film of, and you can call and see if they would be willing to help you out with it. We have had some good experience with that. But if you don't trade with them, they won't be likely to do you a favor later.
Our philosophy is that we will trade with anyone, because it's not like we have any secrets... We run a 4-3 and bring heat. We are supposed to be gap sound, but of course we have "brain-cramps". On offense we run spread with zone blocking. You can tell after 1 or 2 series who the weak-spots are anyway, so it's not like you are giving an advantage or creating a disadvantage to yourself... If they find that you have tendencies, then it will only make you a better coach in the long-run.
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Post by btincup on Oct 3, 2008 11:46:24 GMT -6
Agreed, silly not to trade your the only thing your doing is saving him a trip to your game or your opponents game. Just be clear that you would also like to receive some films from him in the future. Also save something special offensively for him when you play him. A little surprise or something you didn't run in last game.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 3, 2008 11:47:20 GMT -6
Always want film. My ego thinks I can out coach them. of course i can't, but I think it every week. Is this the definition of insanity? doing something repeatedly when you know it's not true???
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Post by coachcb on Oct 3, 2008 12:01:14 GMT -6
Last year, we were having trouble getting film from everyone. So, our HC sent our first two games to EVERYONE in the conference. By taking the high road, he avoid a pissing match with the other programs, established some good faith, and we didn't have an issue with film for the rest of the year.
We use GFS (Greater Film Service) around here; worth it. It's an internet/server based program that allows all teams in our conference to upload film from week to week. The film is stored, so we have access to every single piece of film from the entire year. The film is also saved from year to year; makes it easy to put together high-light videos.
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Post by phantom on Oct 3, 2008 12:04:18 GMT -6
I'm not sure whether to trade or not. I don't want to trade because we can scout them live (we played thursday this week, they play today). It is not mandated to trade. Is it a jerk move to not trade? I think it's unprofessional not to trade. It's also shortsighted. OK, you've seen then this year. Presumably they've also seen you. What about next year? What will it do for your reputation? If word gets out that you're hard to deal with it may make it harder to work with other coaches in the future. To answer your question as asked, yes it's a jerk move.
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Post by dc207 on Oct 3, 2008 19:14:34 GMT -6
...I guess we're lucky - we had three crews out filming tonight because we want our level of preparation to be determined by us. It is not a conference rule to trade, but every other team does. Funny thing is, they've ostracized one school that always has a ton of talent, and we primarily trade film with them for scouting purposes but do not trade with future opponents. For the record, I wouldn;t trade with him BECAUSE we have people willing to help in that regard so we will always be prapared in the future. If we didn't have those peopel around, then perhaps I'd feel differently. As far as getting the other team prepared, that is someone else's problem. I know some will disagree, but I am not concerned with their problems.
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Post by phantom on Oct 3, 2008 21:51:27 GMT -6
...I guess we're lucky - we had three crews out filming tonight because we want our level of preparation to be determined by us. It is not a conference rule to trade, but every other team does. Funny thing is, they've ostracized one school that always has a ton of talent, and we primarily trade film with them for scouting purposes but do not trade with future opponents. For the record, I wouldn;t trade with him BECAUSE we have people willing to help in that regard so we will always be prapared in the future. If we didn't have those peopel around, then perhaps I'd feel differently. As far as getting the other team prepared, that is someone else's problem. I know some will disagree, but I am not concerned with their problems. So, professional courtesy isn't a big consideration with you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2008 21:56:18 GMT -6
just FYI: In most IL conferences, coaches trade two games. Filming while scouting is illegal, so trading isn't even a question. every now and then, you'll run across some a-hole who won't trade, but in my experience, it's pretty rare.
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Post by dc207 on Oct 4, 2008 4:32:49 GMT -6
...guess I'll have to be the voice of dissent, that's fine - not a new thing for me! Anyway, in our area we have a .. how do I say it ... certain amount of lazy coaches who never get film unless they trade for it. There are others who send jv coaches out to film, again we are lucky in that we have people who are solely dedicated to getting film the old fashioned way - putting boots on the ground and doing it ourselves. With that in mind, I do not consider it a 'professional courtesy' to do your job - get your team prepared. Guess we'll have to disagree on that one. I will say, we scouted a certain team nine times last season because we knew that we'd see them in the playoffs. So given all that hard work by some of OUR people, what should we have done if their coach called the weekend before the playoff game and asked to trade? Ridiculous assertion that we should trade. Do your job.
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Post by dc207 on Oct 4, 2008 4:56:47 GMT -6
...if it were a state championship game, would you trade your opponent your last two games if you already had film on them? If so, then good for you. Our school once lost in week one to a team 28-6, then our coaching staff knew the road to a state title went through them. So, they scouted them every week the rest of the season, and filmed them whenever possible. Lo and behold, they matched up in the state final and we ran all over them, kid set a state record with like 440 rushing yards and we destroyed them. If the opposing team's coach had called in the week leading up to the game, what should our head coach have done? Option A: Trade him two games, thus nullifying all the hard work his staff had done to win. Option B: Thanks, but no thanks. We have at least another state title because of the hard work of our coaching staff in that season. To me, that's what it takes and that is why I am so adament (sp?) about doing your homework. I understand the rules are different in other areas, prohibiting filming opponents and such.
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go42
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Post by go42 on Oct 4, 2008 6:39:05 GMT -6
Trade with them. Just get a film of a game you have not scouted live. I think you can have the best of both worlds...if they do not scout you live it is their loss, but you can get two looks at them for the price of one...and you don't tick anyone off
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Post by Coach Vint on Oct 4, 2008 12:13:06 GMT -6
I ahve to echo the many sentiments that you should trade. When I was coaching at a large high school I really hated when coaches wouldn't trade film. I also wanted as much film as I could get my hands on, regardless of whether we saw them in person.
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Post by phantom on Oct 4, 2008 15:43:19 GMT -6
...if it were a state championship game, would you trade your opponent your last two games if you already had film on them? If so, then good for you. Our school once lost in week one to a team 28-6, then our coaching staff knew the road to a state title went through them. So, they scouted them every week the rest of the season, and filmed them whenever possible. Lo and behold, they matched up in the state final and we ran all over them, kid set a state record with like 440 rushing yards and we destroyed them. If the opposing team's coach had called in the week leading up to the game, what should our head coach have done? Option A: Trade him two games, thus nullifying all the hard work his staff had done to win. Option B: Thanks, but no thanks. We have at least another state title because of the hard work of our coaching staff in that season. To me, that's what it takes and that is why I am so adament (sp?) about doing your homework. I understand the rules are different in other areas, prohibiting filming opponents and such. We've been in state championship games. Won them. We had video but still traded. As I've said, professional courtesy.
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Post by towtheline on Oct 4, 2008 23:29:33 GMT -6
they had the same opportunity to scout as you did
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Post by phantom on Oct 5, 2008 1:08:06 GMT -6
Refusing to trade will get you labeled as a dickhead. It will hurt your kids when there's voting for honors. It won't hurt your opponents because they'll make deals with your past opponents to get video. Those past opponents will give up those videos gladly because they hate you because they think you're a dickhead.
To me trading's better.
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Post by CVBears on Oct 5, 2008 12:49:13 GMT -6
for what it's worth, we ended up trading. I now think it was the right thing to do.
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Post by coachsky on Oct 5, 2008 12:54:49 GMT -6
No longer an issue for us.
Everyone is required to uplaod video of each game to a shared site before 10am Saturday AM. You get to pick the best film from each game. Wish everyone used HD!
Prior to this it was required by league to trade 2. We flimed our big games with crews every weekend.
Much easier now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2008 18:20:42 GMT -6
Coach, it depends, I did that once a few years ago....note I said ONCE, I'll never do it again. 2003 We played a team that was from another league, in the city being Mr. nice guy we sent him video of a scrimmage he sent us some game film......except it was from 2 years prior.
The offense was similar, but the blocking schemes were different, they went into formations not on the tape...ETC..we were duped,
Talk about deception. Long story short we won, but we were very buisy on the sideline at halftime making changes
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 5, 2008 18:25:47 GMT -6
Coach, it depends, I did that once a few years ago....note I said ONCE, I'll never do it again. 2003 We played a team that was from another league, in the city being Mr. nice guy we sent him video of a scrimmage he sent us some game film......except it was from 2 years prior. The offense was similar, but the blocking schemes were different, they went into formations not on the tape...ETC..we were duped, Talk about deception. Long story short we won, but we were very buisy on the sideline at halftime making changes that could happen from week to week anyway. Twice while coaching in H.S. I have had teams COMPLETELY change base formations/base plays the week they played us. Once in week 5, from flexbone option to 3 wide two back I formation sprint draw offense...and then in the same season, another team in week 9 switched from the zero split dbl wing they had run the previous 8 weeks, to a 5 foot split spread T formation.
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Post by lsrood on Oct 6, 2008 6:46:54 GMT -6
dc207,
I don't know what state you are in, but in PA it is required to exchange tapes for both district and state playoffs including the championship game. A previous thread covered alot of the arguments about trading film, it looks like every state has different rules concerning exchanges so what is a big deal to some is not an issue for others. I'm surprised the Federation hasn't addressed the issue, after all they are concerned about such important things as wristbands, you would think film exchange would be a little higher on the list.
Either way, trading is a professional courtesy and no I am not one of those lazy coaches, our JR high coaches are out taping every week.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2008 10:19:16 GMT -6
Coach, it depends, I did that once a few years ago....note I said ONCE, I'll never do it again. 2003 We played a team that was from another league, in the city being Mr. nice guy we sent him video of a scrimmage he sent us some game film......except it was from 2 years prior. The offense was similar, but the blocking schemes were different, they went into formations not on the tape...ETC..we were duped, Talk about deception. Long story short we won, but we were very buisy on the sideline at halftime making changes that could happen from week to week anyway. Twice while coaching in H.S. I have had teams COMPLETELY change base formations/base plays the week they played us. Once in week 5, from flexbone option to 3 wide two back I formation sprint draw offense...and then in the same season, another team in week 9 switched from the zero split dbl wing they had run the previous 8 weeks, to a 5 foot split spread T formation. True, if it's a mandated and regulated process as in Highg School Ball then I guess it's safe...little league is a different story
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