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Post by bulldogoption on Sept 26, 2008 6:31:08 GMT -6
For the guys who have been coaching 15-20 years +...... Have you seen a change in injuries in the game? i.e. are there more concussions, more shoulder separations, more knee injuries...or maybe less of something as well?  |
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Post by touchdownmaker on Sept 26, 2008 6:40:39 GMT -6
concussions are way up for us. big and faster kids hit harder.
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Post by bulldogoption on Sept 26, 2008 8:38:41 GMT -6
Actually I don't feel injuries are up anymore than they were back when. Matter of fact, it kind of seems to me that injuries are down simply because now-a-days we have better weight/off season programs. But it does seem that when legitimate injuries do occur, they are more severe. Do you think the divide is greater now than it was...what I mean is back in "the day" before americas kids became obese and weights weren't as much of a factor, the playing field may have been more level. Now weights not only move kids ahead, but other kids may be even widening the gap by doing less.... We see a lot of concussions and shoulder injuries, more than I can remember in the past. |
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sbv
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Post by sbv on Sept 26, 2008 9:17:55 GMT -6
I think DCohio hit the nail on the head. 10 years ago when I finished High School football, there were players who got a separated shoulder, put back in place by the coach/trainer (an old timer without training) and the kid went back out and played. I think a lot of it comes from the trainers being at all of the games and being held liable for the safety of the kids. I'm sure there were concussions back then but unless it knocked you out/ knocked you stupid you were going back in and then would take 5 or 6 extra strength tylenol a few times over the weekend. I had a kid this past week, slice his hand pretty bad on a facemask. I'm thinking, he'll need stitches after the game, he just needs to get butterflys put on it now and he'll be fine. The trainer sees it, tells me his hand is broken (it is pretty swollen and the gash was pretty deep) and he can't play the 2nd half. Turns out that his hand was not broken but bruised and we end up losing the game without my starting RB/FS. Even if it was broke, there was nothing we could have done about it at that point, I was all for tapping it up and getting it fixed afterwards. Unless it was a compound fracture its not like it was going to make his broken hand worse, it would have been a matter of how much pain he could deal with. This is how things would have been at my HS 10 years ago but we had a pretty good "rub some dirt on it" type of coach who acted as trainer.
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Post by phantom on Sept 26, 2008 11:00:41 GMT -6
One thing that I've seen is, knock on wood, fewer serious knee injuries. I attribute that to better conditioning, improved medical capabilities, and the no-cut rule in Federation ball.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 26, 2008 12:20:45 GMT -6
I think DCohio hit the nail on the head. 10 years ago when I finished High School football, there were players who got a separated shoulder, put back in place by the coach/trainer (an old timer without training) and the kid went back out and played. I think a lot of it comes from the trainers being at all of the games and being held liable for the safety of the kids. About 5 years ago, at the school where I am at now, an assistant coach attempted to put a kid's shoulder back in after it had separated and messed it up so badly that the kid had to have surgery and never played ball again. To say that there was a lawsuit is an understatement... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2008 12:34:44 GMT -6
Dcohio, we can all chase a skirt at fullspeed no matter what our physical condition is ;D
In answer to the question, I think our perceptions of toughness have changed over time. "Back in the day" admitting injury was a sign of weakness whereas now "if you can't go, you can't go" is a typical response to injuries. I know personally I will sometimes steal the line about hurt or injured from The Program, but will error on the side of caution. Not so much to avoid lawsuit but to avoid more severe injury to the kid if he really is hurt.
Also, I don't think there are really more injuries now. I think doctors/trainers are better at diagnosis now than before. If you use baseball as an example, I think arm injuries to pitchers have always been prevelant. It's just that years and years ago, the pitcher "lost it"; now there is a known medical reason for why a pitcher may lose it.
ps. only been a coach for seven years, but that's my opinion based on talking to veterans and personal experience.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 26, 2008 12:40:44 GMT -6
Dcohio, we can all chase a skirt at fullspeed no matter what our physical condition is
No need to stretch either...
had a couple of concussions and a couple of shoulders this year. seems about average
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Post by gacoach on Sept 26, 2008 12:46:23 GMT -6
I see more "phatom" injuries, and heaven forbid, a kid goes home and tells mom. Once that happens kid goes to doctor comes back with a note "out 2 weeks" for a foot sprain. I have noticed that players and much quicker to bring up an injury than in the past. I played, back in the 80's with a broken foot (1 game) and a tear in my AC joint in my left shoulder. I just played never thinking to tell the coaches about it.
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Post by 19delta on Sept 26, 2008 13:09:53 GMT -6
I see more "phatom" injuries, and heaven forbid, a kid goes home and tells mom. Once that happens kid goes to doctor comes back with a note "out 2 weeks" for a foot sprain. I have noticed that players and much quicker to bring up an injury than in the past. I played, back in the 80's with a broken foot (1 game) and a tear in my AC joint in my left shoulder. I just played never thinking to tell the coaches about it. Couple of years ago I had a kid who could have been a heck of an O-lineman "hurt" his back. Went to a doctor, the doctor told him he was fine. So, he went to another doctor who said that the kid had to sit for two weeks!  Puts "getting a second opinion" in a whole new light! ;D |
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Post by 19delta on Sept 26, 2008 13:15:51 GMT -6
I also think that kids, in general, are a lot softer and a heck of a lot more sensitive than in the past.
Had one of my o-linemen moaning because our head coach is always "ripping" him. Our head coach is about the most soft-spoken, level-headed guy I have ever worked for. Hardly EVER raises his voice in anger. The kid's idea of being "ripped" is when the head coach stops the film on Monday and constructively criticizes the kid's technique. Isn't that what coaches are SUPPOSED to do?
The kid was looking for sympathy from me after he had played poorly in a game a few weeks ago and I gave him none. I gave him a REAL example of getting "ripped" by a coach...15 years ago when I was playing high school ball, a coach getting nose-to-nose with you, screaming and questioning you very manhood...that's getting "ripped on".
Honestly, a lot of these kids are in BIG trouble when they get out of school. The "real" world is going to eat these kids alive.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 9:29:40 GMT -6
I also think that kids, in general, are a lot softer and a heck of a lot more sensitive than in the past. Had one of my o-linemen moaning because our head coach is always "ripping" him. Our head coach is about the most soft-spoken, level-headed guy I have ever worked for. Hardly EVER raises his voice in anger. The kid's idea of being "ripped" is when the head coach stops the film on Monday and constructively criticizes the kid's technique. Isn't that what coaches are SUPPOSED to do? The kid was looking for sympathy from me after he had played poorly in a game a few weeks ago and I gave him none. I gave him a REAL example of getting "ripped" by a coach...15 years ago when I was playing high school ball, a coach getting nose-to-nose with you, screaming and questioning you very manhood...that's getting "ripped on". Honestly, a lot of these kids are in BIG trouble when they get out of school. The "real" world is going to eat these kids alive. This is true..but you know who the cause of this is? US.. . Growing up is now a PROVING ground, not an IMPROVING ground. A few months back, I started a thread about how England is looking to modify some of its national soccer structure to make the lowest levels conducive to skill development, not outcome. The thread was met with the super macho responses usually associated with such suggestions. What those who clamored on about how eliminating trophies and scores at early levels leads to woosifying kids FAIL to realize is that often those trophies and scores and "winning" leads to to the self imposed/parent imposed pressures of having to be "successful" at such early ages. So, as I stated above, youth is now about PROVING how good you are (in the classroom, on the field..etc. ) rather than rather than IMPROVING yourself. In the classroom, the kid has to...i repeat HAS TO get an A or at worst a B. He/She doesn't have to learn anything. They don't need to develop cognitive reasoning skills, who cares about higher order thinking skills. All are unimportant. What IS important is the "A", because that is "winning" We are no longer trying to improve, we are simply trying to get the desired outcome, which is NOT measured in improvement, but rather by success. Getting an "A" for learning 2+2 is more desired than getting a "C" for deciphering a word problem. With this type of environment, is it ANY wonder that kids are having trouble dealing with less than stellar performances. We have created this environment..and then we complain because the kids are "sensitive" or soft. |
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Post by brophy on Sept 27, 2008 10:12:29 GMT -6
awesome, coachd, that was beautiful (agree).
With regards to treating injuries, we also didn't treat diabetes, cancer, tumors, mental/behavior disorders differently 20 and 30 years ago. Why is that? Probably because we have a greater wealth of information to work with on the proper methods
20 years ago, if you dropped the year-round schedule on our team like we have now, I don't think we would have had anyone left on the team.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 10:22:43 GMT -6
I see more "phatom" injuries, and heaven forbid, a kid goes home and tells mom. Once that happens kid goes to doctor comes back with a note "out 2 weeks" for a foot sprain. I have noticed that players and much quicker to bring up an injury than in the past. I played, back in the 80's with a broken foot (1 game) and a tear in my AC joint in my left shoulder. I just played never thinking to tell the coaches about it. Couple of years ago I had a kid who could have been a heck of an O-lineman "hurt" his back. Went to a doctor, the doctor told him he was fine. So, he went to another doctor who said that the kid had to sit for two weeks! Puts "getting a second opinion" in a whole new light! ;D Same thing happened to a player of mine a several years ago. 2nd doctor found a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down if it had received another heavy trauma. Thank god for the 2nd opinion. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 10:26:54 GMT -6
For the guys who have been coaching 15-20 years +...... Have you seen a change in injuries in the game? i.e. are there more concussions, more shoulder separations, more knee injuries...or maybe less of something as well? I think the increases in strength/conditioning are resulting in a much more violent game. So although the s/c is designed to prevent injuries, the overall improvement to mass, speed, acceleration, and force production combined with a much better diagnostic system is leading to what seems to be an increase in injuries |
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Post by coachcb on Sept 27, 2008 10:44:00 GMT -6
I have seen fewer serious joint injuries (shredded shoulders, knees, ankles, wrists, etc), but "boo-boos" are definitely on the rise.. Concussions, sprains, "contusions" (frickin bruises..); we gets lots of those. If our weight training programs could only keep up with the lawyers, everyone would be healthy.
For example, one of our starting DEs tweaked his knee last week in practice. No ligament, cartilage, or other joint damage. A minor sprain with no swelling, full range of motion, and the kid is kicking a ball at practice.... The trainer clears him to play, mommy and daddy take him to a "real doctor" who says he's out for a week. FREAKIN AWESOME.
As far as the concussions go; I AM OVER IT. I say this because when I played, I picked up so many concussions that I ended up in a neurologist's office. I had terrible head-aches, black outs, balance problems, etc.... I played through (I wasn't real bright) all that stuff until I blacked out one day and wrecked my car.
Now, we've got these kids who couldn't take down a fly with an angle block, they have headaches because they just drank a 1,000 mg of caffeine; it's a CONCUSSION.
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Post by highball007 on Sept 27, 2008 11:34:39 GMT -6
I tell you all what! We are a 5A school and the largest is 6A! If you do not have a trainer you will not have injuries. The kids have no one to feel sorry for them. The kids also don't have an out of conditioning. We tell the kids if they get hurt and can not practice or condition then they will miss a quarter per practice. It is amazing that in the games we play in how many players on the other team get "Hurt" then back in 4 plays later. The game stops for the trainer to go out and get the kid. We are not the best team but we do not have injuries. I have been at this school for five years and we just do not get injuries, we get bumps and bruises and get beat up a little, but no injuries. That is one of the most important lessons athletes need to learn. Are you Hurt or Injured???
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 27, 2008 13:02:10 GMT -6
I also think that kids, in general, are a lot softer and a heck of a lot more sensitive than in the past. Had one of my o-linemen moaning because our head coach is always "ripping" him. Our head coach is about the most soft-spoken, level-headed guy I have ever worked for. Hardly EVER raises his voice in anger. The kid's idea of being "ripped" is when the head coach stops the film on Monday and constructively criticizes the kid's technique. Isn't that what coaches are SUPPOSED to do? The kid was looking for sympathy from me after he had played poorly in a game a few weeks ago and I gave him none. I gave him a REAL example of getting "ripped" by a coach...15 years ago when I was playing high school ball, a coach getting nose-to-nose with you, screaming and questioning you very manhood...that's getting "ripped on". Honestly, a lot of these kids are in BIG trouble when they get out of school. The "real" world is going to eat these kids alive. I actually had a teacher come up to the head coach and complain to him that I was ripping one of her students (I was) SHE said that I was hurting his feelings. next day, during practice I say to him Cupcake please stop getting burned on the fade. ok sweetie pie. kids had a nice laugh and teacher never said another word |
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Post by phantom on Sept 27, 2008 14:14:05 GMT -6
Couple of years ago I had a kid who could have been a heck of an O-lineman "hurt" his back. Went to a doctor, the doctor told him he was fine. So, he went to another doctor who said that the kid had to sit for two weeks! Puts "getting a second opinion" in a whole new light! ;D Same thing happened to a player of mine a several years ago. 2nd doctor found a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down if it had received another heavy trauma. Thank god for the 2nd opinion. I'm glad that you mentioned that. I've seen a number of posts that said that kids were a lot tougher in the "good old days" when there were no trainers and kids played through injuries. I'm a history teacher (well, a retired history teacher) and I know that for the most part the "good old days" weren't so good. A lot of guys who played back when I did are physical wrecks today. To the guys who played 10-15 years ago and consider today's kids pu$$ies, that's what us old-timers (like me, HS class of "71) said about you and what real oldtimers said about us. The caution practiced by many trainers and doctors today can be frustrating but I do believe that it's a good thing. |
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2008 16:02:24 GMT -6
Couple of years ago I had a kid who could have been a heck of an O-lineman "hurt" his back. Went to a doctor, the doctor told him he was fine. So, he went to another doctor who said that the kid had to sit for two weeks! Puts "getting a second opinion" in a whole new light! ;D Same thing happened to a player of mine a several years ago. 2nd doctor found a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down if it had received another heavy trauma. Thank god for the 2nd opinion. The second doctor in my case DID NOT find a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down. But, it is not surprising that you would take something from 0 to insane. The second doctor found nothing wrong with the kid. Just wrote him a note excusing him from PE and physical activity, which is exactly what the kid and his mommy wanted. Kid NEVER had an issue with his back again. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 17:41:31 GMT -6
Same thing happened to a player of mine a several years ago. 2nd doctor found a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down if it had received another heavy trauma. Thank god for the 2nd opinion. The second doctor in my case DID NOT find a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down. But, it is not surprising that you would take something from 0 to insane. The second doctor found nothing wrong with the kid. Just wrote him a note excusing him from PE and physical activity, which is exactly what the kid and his mommy wanted. Kid NEVER had an issue with his back again. You totally miss the point here. If NOT playing is what the kid and his parents wanted, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU COMPLAINING? So you want someone who DOESN'T want to play...to play? As far as 0 to insane, please explain that? I simply provided a anecdote, just as you did, with a different outcome. How is that insane? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 17:46:39 GMT -6
As far as the concussions go; I AM OVER IT. I say this because when I played, I picked up so many concussions that I ended up in a neurologist's office. I had terrible head-aches, black outs, balance problems, etc.... I played through (I wasn't real bright) all that stuff until I blacked out one day and wrecked my car. Now, we've got these kids who couldn't take down a fly with an angle block, they have headaches because they just drank a 1,000 mg of caffeine; it's a CONCUSSION. Wow.... google subdural hematoma anyone? Maybe I am misreading it a bit...but..the fact that you had such issues, LIFE THREATENING issues...risking both YOUR and OTHERS safety....and you feel that kids should be more like you when it comes to dealing with head injuries? Or did I misread it. |
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Post by tog on Sept 27, 2008 17:57:43 GMT -6
One thing that I've seen is, knock on wood, fewer serious knee injuries. I attribute that to better conditioning, improved medical capabilities, and the no-cut rule in Federation ball. phantom i don't but this at all knee injuries don't happen around these parts on cuts they happen more often than not when players slow up and their foot is planted and someone just falls/rolls into it as for the op the doctors and trainers are way more scared of lawsuits and stuff nowadays and will always error on the side of keeping the kid out we have some tough kids that know the difference between hurt and injured |
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2008 18:12:01 GMT -6
The second doctor in my case DID NOT find a condition that could have left the kid paralyzed from the waist down. But, it is not surprising that you would take something from 0 to insane. The second doctor found nothing wrong with the kid. Just wrote him a note excusing him from PE and physical activity, which is exactly what the kid and his mommy wanted. Kid NEVER had an issue with his back again. You totally miss the point here. If NOT playing is what the kid and his parents wanted, WHY THE HELL ARE YOU COMPLAINING? So you want someone who DOESN'T want to play...to play? As far as 0 to insane, please explain that? I simply provided a anecdote, just as you did, with a different outcome. How is that insane? I'm not complaining...didn't you see the happy face smilie? I was just using the story to illustrate the fact that this particular kid was not very tough. As for 0 to insane...your anecdote was not relevant to my post. Clearly, if the kid I posted about had a serious injury that was discovered by the second doctor, it would not fall under the category of a kid who was not tough. But that was not the case. The second doctor found no injury and simply wrote him a doctor's note to get out of PE for a week or so. Obviously, the kid did not have a serious injury and was, along with his mother, simply looking for a doctor who was going to enable his lack of desire to play football. I'm not sure if you work in a high school or not, but kids who show up with doctor's note excusing them from physical activity for a week or so are a dime a dozen. |
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Post by coachcb on Sept 27, 2008 18:12:10 GMT -6
As far as the concussions go; I AM OVER IT. I say this because when I played, I picked up so many concussions that I ended up in a neurologist's office. I had terrible head-aches, black outs, balance problems, etc.... I played through (I wasn't real bright) all that stuff until I blacked out one day and wrecked my car. Now, we've got these kids who couldn't take down a fly with an angle block, they have headaches because they just drank a 1,000 mg of caffeine; it's a CONCUSSION. Wow.... google subdural hematoma anyone? Maybe I am misreading it a bit...but..the fact that you had such issues, LIFE THREATENING issues...risking both YOUR and OTHERS safety....and you feel that kids should be more like you when it comes to dealing with head injuries? Or did I misread it. I am not saying that I want kids to be like me, hence the "not very bright" statement. I would expect that, being the individual you are, you would have read into that statement. However, what I had WERE CONCUSSIONS; a very real issue. What they have, as is being proven by the new concussion cognitive aptitude tests, (yes, several of us have as expansive a vocabulary as you, coachd) is a "boo-boo". We test all of our athletes using the imPACT testing program protocols before the season starts.We just start this recently. They play the game, they THINK that they have a concussion but have no physical symptoms, we retest them. Guess what? We are having fewer cases of actual concussions than we have had in the past 5 years. We have take steps to treat concussions as seriously as they need to be treated. And we are finding that kids that we may have diagnosed with concussions, did not in fact have concussions. And, this is my last post on this discussion with you, coachd. I am not going to get into come ridiculous cyber argument with a consummate "professional" like yourself. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 18:14:02 GMT -6
One thing that I've seen is, knock on wood, fewer serious knee injuries. I attribute that to better conditioning, improved medical capabilities, and the no-cut rule in Federation ball. as for the op the doctors and trainers are way more scared of lawsuits and stuff nowadays and will always error on the side of keeping the kid out Can you really blame them? We ALL know that if god forbid a player was cleared, and then reinjured the lawyers would have a field day. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 27, 2008 18:19:54 GMT -6
Wow.... google subdural hematoma anyone? Maybe I am misreading it a bit...but..the fact that you had such issues, LIFE THREATENING issues...risking both YOUR and OTHERS safety....and you feel that kids should be more like you when it comes to dealing with head injuries? Or did I misread it. I am not saying that I want kids to be like me, hence the "not very bright" statement. I would expect that, being the individual you are, you would have read into that statement. However, what I had WERE CONCUSSIONS; a very real issue. What they have, as is being proven by the new concussion cognitive aptitude tests, (yes, several of us have as expansive a vocabulary as you, coachd) is a "boo-boo". We test all of our athletes using the imPACT testing program protocols before the season starts.We just start this recently. They play the game, they THINK that they have a concussion but have no physical symptoms, we retest them. Guess what? We are having fewer cases of actual concussions than we have had in the past 5 years. We have take steps to treat concussions as seriously as they need to be treated. And we are finding that kids that we may have diagnosed with concussions, did not in fact have concussions. And, this is my last post on this discussion with you, coachd. I am not going to get into come ridiculous cyber argument with a consummate "professional" like yourself. If you are familiar with the imPACT program, then you are also obviously aware that being asymptomatic is not a singular tool used to diagnose. Maybe I do come off as a pompous A$$ in situations like this. I have watched two former students be laid to rest because of "old school" coaches trying to toughen them up. How many caskets have you carried?? |
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Post by tog on Sept 27, 2008 18:46:53 GMT -6
as for the op the doctors and trainers are way more scared of lawsuits and stuff nowadays and will always error on the side of keeping the kid out Can you really blame them? We ALL know that if god forbid a player was cleared, and then reinjured the lawyers would have a field day. nope with what we know today about the serious stuff i have no problem the secret is getting a team doc that knows what is serious or not we have a good doc and trainer both take care of the kids better than i have ever seen but i have never felt like they are screwing the team they are always taking care of the kids and getting them back on the field as soon as they can with the best interests of the kid in hand |
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Post by 19delta on Sept 27, 2008 19:03:13 GMT -6
There really shouldn't be ANY "judgement" on the part of coaches when it comes to a kid complaining about headaches, blurred vision, dizziness, and being naseous. A kid comes up to me and has any of those complaints, that kid is going STRAIGHT to the trainer, do not pass go, do not collect $200. Also, I'm calling that kid's parents and letting them know what the kid told me. And I'm going to document the whole thing...
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 27, 2008 20:10:43 GMT -6
You know I read an editorial in the paper around the year 2000. it was titled '98. I don't have the article but the jist of it was there were some town folk complaining about kids riding around town real fast, yelling at women, fighting and generally raising havoc. the kids were riding around on their horses, the year was 1898. kids haven't changed. we have changed as adults and as a society.
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