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Post by coachbiggers on Jul 31, 2008 7:37:45 GMT -6
Just line up and physically Annihilate their opponent anymore? Don't get me wrong i'm as creative as the next with a very deep passion for spreading the field and making you defend ALL four corners. However, lately i'm noticing a trend with all the so called experts, gurus and geniuses of the world running there "discovered" offense or defensive schemes. We have found a million names for a 5 yard out, the drag and the veer option have all gotten a make over!! We talk ad nauseum about what's the best way to block 4 guys vs. your 5!!! Now i'm no mathematician but I know that I have the advantage in that situation. Knock them on there A$$ and keep it moving. We have a motto it's no excuses just execution and we live and die by it. Although, I do love the spread, I mean LOVE the Spread. There has to something said about just plain ole GATA!!!
Well that was my vent for today back to your regularly scheduled 10 ways to run the Waggle Period!!
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Post by ajreaper on Jul 31, 2008 8:11:29 GMT -6
Everything runs in cycles and right now the spread them out and gash them with speed offenses are what's "hot". I think most of this trickles down from the colleges and universities to the high schools- watch how many flexbone/option teams they'll be at the high school level when Paul Johnson at Georgia Tech starts having good success doing what he does.
Many of you likely play at least a couple of teams who "attempt" to run a spread offense but lack either the personal or the ability to coach it up and could be more competitive running something else but they are going to run what they see on TV on Saturday afternoons. I know we do.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 31, 2008 8:18:45 GMT -6
My question, why do the concepts you present "line up and annihilate / Spread" have to be mutually exclusive ?
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Post by highball007 on Jul 31, 2008 8:26:47 GMT -6
You know, I grew up with my father as a head coach, and we were based out of a single back and spread people out, we still ran the ball, we had the states leading rusher going into the 7 game of the season. I then went to college and played in offensive system that was pretty wide open. I then started coaching at the college level in a system that was wide open and ran a lot of read and shovel option. I now coach at the high school level and I find that teams are switching so drastically from year to year that the kids don't ever get comfortable with one system. At least here in Oregon the best programs are the ones that have their kids do the same thing from pop warner all the way through varsity football, or they are private schools and take the pop warner kids that the public schools helped fund.
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Post by liberalhater on Jul 31, 2008 8:31:30 GMT -6
anybody can line up in space and run around ! Even teams who cant run or dont have speed. or dont have a qb or whatever.Its easy. It is a lot harder to teach a kid to roll his hips,move his feet, put his head in the right place, blah blah blah. From a coaching standpoint it is even hard to stick with 3 yard a pop and be patient. I think it is two different mentalities. That can be combined.JMO
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Post by coachbiggers on Jul 31, 2008 8:50:44 GMT -6
I wasn't talking about running power I or wish bone just the overall mentality of the game today. It's you want the Ferrari when sometimes you need the F-150!! That's all i'm saying. The need for 130+ plays to get into the right play is absurd. Football is 11 on 11 always has been and always will be minus the 8on8 and the others etc... Not suggesting at all that it's not a good idea or scheme! I hear too often about the Tony Franklin system the Urban Meyer system the Rich Rodriguez system, it seems as though we have all the systems with these people names attached to it but it's still football 11 on 11.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jul 31, 2008 8:51:17 GMT -6
My question, why do the concepts you present "line up and annihilate / Spread" have to be mutually exclusive ? Great point. That's the great thing about oline. It's still me against you. Very interesting. how many teams have won a national championship with a named offense Air Raid? Run and Shoot? Fun and Gun? Sure they do well offensively, but you must be great on defense too. Maybe I'm old school but I don't know how much team toughness you create when you play grass basketball. IMO This is why teams like Ohio St are continually playing for titles
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Post by schultbear74 on Jul 31, 2008 8:57:52 GMT -6
We spent last season and all winter devloping the run mentality in a team that used to be spread. We still run both, but it is quite satisfying seeing the pancakes. I really enjoy the mix. The problem with being exclusively one or the other is boredom.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 31, 2008 8:59:24 GMT -6
jgordon---it is a bit different discussing college football because running "a named offense" like you described affects recruiting. First hand experience here, VERY difficult coaching defense when your offense doesn't recruit TE's or Fullbacks.
I would argue though that Steve Spurrier has one ring, and Probably would have at least one more had he not left the Swamp when he did.
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Post by lochness on Jul 31, 2008 9:12:15 GMT -6
To run people over requires:
Physical play Patience and ability in coaching A tough mentality Dedicated OL who work hard in the weight room and on their blocking assignments Tough runners, FB "types" that need to be developed in the off-season TE "types" that need to be developed in teh off-season
All of these things are going away because they are not easy to establish and develop. Developing good OL takes TIME and lots of coaching ability. It requires dedication on the part of the athlete to be in the weight room and doing their footwork agility work in the winter and pre-season. It takes a ton of patience and creativity to develop sound blocking schemes and rules against multiple fronts.
Since all of this takes such time and effort, in most coach's minds, the reward is not worth it. Why would I spend all that time and energy developing OL or FB "types" when I can line up with 4 WR's who are already natural athletes and don't need that much coaching or work and just dink and dunk down the field? Then in my run game, I just put Joe Superstar at QB and run 3 rushing plays (usually Inside Zone, Outside Zone, and "Dart" whatever the heck that is) and let them go wild like they did in the backyard when they were kids! Yay, now everyone is having fun!
I think it's an "economy of time and skills" issue here. The trend is going away from physical schemes because those are tough things to teach, and it's tough to find those types of kids. So, rather than putting all the time and effort into developing FOOTBALL PLAYERS, we are taking athletes from basketball or vollyball or wherever and adapting our coaching philosophy and style to them.
I also think it has to do with perception (what parents and administrators think). If you line up and pound on people, everyone accuses you of being boring and unimaginative, but if you run around people and throw the ball all over the field, you are a "risk taker" and "immaginative" on offense...and hey...at least it looks like you're trying.
So, what liberalhater said is right...it's not EASY to run over people...and we don't like stuff that is not EASY!
I, for one, like to develop these attributes and have a mentality that we ARE going to run people over. I've always believed firmly what my HS coach used to tell us: "Football is NOT for everyone! It takes a special person to be a football player!" I think the sport gotten away from that (just look at the A-11 or the 4-and-5 wide gun offenses), and we are trying to make football for "everyone." And, when you make football a sport for everyone, you water down what makes it special and unique from sports like basketball and soccer. If I wanted to coach basketball or soccer players, I'd coach basketball or soccer!! But I want to coach FOOTBALL players. I want ape-like FB's and big nasy puking offensive tackles and TE's who block unselfishly, etc. etc. and I want to win because we are tougher and more physical than you.
And if that means that we don't get Johnny Hoops out who only wants to play so he can stay in shape for basketball and catch 55 passes a season, then I personally am okay with that.
But, I think you will find that my opinion is deeply in the minority for all of the reasons listed above. And that's okay too, because it's just an opinion...and everyone has their own philosophy on how things should be done. I respect them all, I just don't LIKE them all!
;D
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Post by coachbiggers on Jul 31, 2008 9:19:09 GMT -6
To run people over requires: Physical play Patience and ability in coaching A tough mentality Dedicated OL who work hard in the weight room and on their blocking assignments Tough runners, FB "types" that need to be developed in the off-season TE "types" that need to be developed in teh off-season All of these things are going away because they are not easy to establish and develop. Developing good OL takes TIME and lots of coaching ability. It requires dedication on the part of the athlete to be in the weight room and doing their footwork agility work in the winter and pre-season. It takes a ton of patience and creativity to develop sound blocking schemes and rules against multiple fronts. Since all of this takes such time and effort, in most coach's minds, the reward is not worth it. Why would I spend all that time and energy developing OL or FB "types" when I can line up with 4 WR's who are already natural athletes and don't need that much coaching or work and just dink and dunk down the field? Then in my run game, I just put Joe Superstar at QB and run 3 rushing plays (usually Inside Zone, Outside Zone, and "Dart" whatever the heck that is) and let them go wild like they did in the backyard when they were kids! Yay, now everyone is having fun! I think it's an "economy of time and skills" issue here. The trend is going away from physical schemes because those are tough things to teach, and it's tough to find those types of kids. So, rather than putting all the time and effort into developing FOOTBALL PLAYERS, we are taking athletes from basketball or vollyball or wherever and adapting our coaching philosophy and style to them. I also think it has to do with perception (what parents and administrators think). If you line up and pound on people, everyone accuses you of being boring and unimaginative, but if you run around people and throw the ball all over the field, you are a "risk taker" and "immaginative" on offense...and hey...at least it looks like you're trying. So, what liberalhater said is right...it's not EASY to run over people...and we don't like stuff that is not EASY! I, for one, like to develop these attributes and have a mentality that we ARE going to run people over. I've always believed firmly what my HS coach used to tell us: "Football is NOT for everyone! It takes a special person to be a football player!" I think the sport gotten away from that (just look at the A-11 or the 4-and-5 wide gun offenses), and we are trying to make football for "everyone." And, when you make football a sport for everyone, you water down what makes it special and unique from sports like basketball and soccer. If I wanted to coach basketball or soccer players, I'd coach basketball or soccer!! But I want to coach FOOTBALL players. I want ape-like FB's and big nasy puking offensive tackles and TE's who block unselfishly, etc. etc. and I want to win because we are tougher and more physical than you. And if that means that we don't get Johnny Hoops out who only wants to play so he can stay in shape for basketball and catch 55 passes a season, then I personally am okay with that. But, I think you will find that my opinion is deeply in the minority for all of the reasons listed above. And that's okay too, because it's just an opinion...and everyone has their own philosophy on how things should be done. I respect them all, I just don't LIKE them all! ;D Ladies and Gents we have winner!! Well said coach!
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Post by justryn2 on Jul 31, 2008 9:50:56 GMT -6
Amen and amen again to lochness! I wish I could think of something to add but this said it all and said it well.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jul 31, 2008 10:37:17 GMT -6
My question, why do the concepts you present "line up and annihilate / Spread" have to be mutually exclusive ? Great point. That's the great thing about oline. It's still me against you. Very interesting. how many teams have won a national championship with a named offense Air Raid? Run and Shoot? Fun and Gun? Sure they do well offensively, but you must be great on defense too. Maybe I'm old school but I don't know how much team toughness you create when you play grass basketball. IMO This is why teams like Ohio St are continually playing for titles oops....I did think of some driving to practice today Oklahoma WISHBONE Delaware WING T
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Post by liberalhater on Jul 31, 2008 10:55:38 GMT -6
just one more point. Its not the number of plays that teams are running, cause if you look at film, a lot teams are running a couple of plays. Where it is different is in the way those plays multiply. Most teams run the same play but never from the same look. Whether it be mo, shifting, mo+shifting, personnel, formations, combinations, releases.......ect...ect. You can be a hard nose pound th rock fundamentally sound football team by keeping simple and making look like it more than 1 play.
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Post by CoachCP on Jul 31, 2008 11:02:14 GMT -6
Being an ex-offensive linemen, I love to just line it up and smash them. I think running from singleback and "spread" concepts gives you the plus one with the QB read threat.
I'm a big fan of motioning an "H" back type (I call it a "Jack" back) into the slot or from the slot into the backfield. I can disguise my power running plays this way, especially if I have a talented J-Back. Its sometimes hard to find this player, but I think this player can be coached up, especially if he is one of the over achieving types.
I do this because often we don't have the ability to line up mano y mano with a defense at this level. It adds the disguise and makes the defense think, taking away some of their power. If we know the plays well enough, we eliminate thinking and we get an advantage, allowing us to smack them in the mouth.
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Post by wingtol on Jul 31, 2008 12:30:27 GMT -6
I also think some of this depends where you are from as well. I know up here in NW PA lots of teams like to line up and try and annihilate their opponents. Maybe it's the mentally of the area or the traditions but it does seem to still be a big part of most teams up here. I think that also helps the mentality of the kids, they seem to have that mentality ingrained in them and we don't often have to take time to develop it in them. Sure we have some spread teams around but most people up here kind of look at those teams as oddities, lot's of comments like How are they gonna win in Nov and Dec when it's 30 deg out and snowing? So I think that the area and traditions can play a big role into what and why teams do what they do.
And a big Amen to lochness!!
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Post by phantom on Jul 31, 2008 12:51:45 GMT -6
Annihilate? Boy, I don't know. That's a strong word. We have a pretty physical bunch and we get after people but I don't know about "annihilate".
We're primarily a Pro-I team. Power is our base play and we will run it every week. We run some spread and throw the ball some- and will more than usual this year since we have a good QB- but at heart we're a power team. I do think that power football is an attitude.
That said I agree with lochness but I don't want spread/passing teams to feel I think that that there's anything wrong with that. What works for you works for you.
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Post by lochness on Jul 31, 2008 14:59:25 GMT -6
Annihilate? Boy, I don't know. That's a strong word. We have a pretty physical bunch and we get after people but I don't know about "annihilate". We're primarily a Pro-I team. Power is our base play and we will run it every week. We run some spread and throw the ball some- and will more than usual this year since we have a good QB- but at heart we're a power team. I do think that power football is an attitude. That said I agree with lochness but I don't want spread/passing teams to feel I think that that there's anything wrong with that. What works for you works for you. I agree phantom, Just becuase that's not "my way" of getting it done doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. Again, the reasons I listed are not necessarily BAD reasons for NOT wanting to run someone over, they're just different philosophically than what I personally value. I still respect those different philosophies!
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Post by airman on Jul 31, 2008 17:09:56 GMT -6
I think running the wishbone has gone away because of speed on defense and blocking rules. when you could arc block as a wishbone halfback and cut the guy down field or make a flat tire as my head coach used to say, you saw longer runs in the option game from wishbone.
my thing is why line up in a telephone booth and have to block extra people.
if i wanted to I coudl line up in 4 wides, single back and run the ball if I wanted to. spread'em out and killing with the pop and belly like many matsakis did at emporia state with brain shay.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 31, 2008 17:15:00 GMT -6
I think running the wishbone has gone away because of speed on defense and blocking rules. when you could arc block as a wishbone halfback and cut the guy down field or make a flat tire as my head coach used to say, you saw longer runs in the option game from wishbone. I agree. Same with the Bucksweep in the wing-T While plenty still run it, I think it lost some of its effectiveness once the 155 lb shifty wingback could no longer just cut the legs of the 235lb 9tech.
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Post by airman on Jul 31, 2008 18:23:42 GMT -6
I think running the wishbone has gone away because of speed on defense and blocking rules. when you could arc block as a wishbone halfback and cut the guy down field or make a flat tire as my head coach used to say, you saw longer runs in the option game from wishbone. I agree. Same with the Bucksweep in the wing-T While plenty still run it, I think it lost some of its effectiveness once the 155 lb shifty wingback could no longer just cut the legs of the 235lb 9tech. I have hear wing t guys say the rocket sweep has been the best thing for the buck sweep. you threaten the flank multiple ways now. team does not know if it is rocket or buck sweep.
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Post by larrymoe on Jul 31, 2008 19:56:53 GMT -6
Just line up and physically Annihilate their opponent anymore? Yes. Check out Plano HS in Illinois. Runs wing-t and runs double dive about 3 million times a game.
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Post by lochness on Jul 31, 2008 20:50:07 GMT -6
Just line up and physically Annihilate their opponent anymore? Yes. Check out Plano HS in Illinois. Runs wing-t and runs double dive about 3 million times a game. Coach, For those of us that don't live in the beautiful state if Illinois, is there any film available? I'd LOVE to see that...
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Post by coachcb on Aug 1, 2008 8:28:49 GMT -6
You know, the first HC that I coached under did exactly what you are talking about coachbiggers. He ran a very effective ground based offense; leading the state in total offense many years along with WINNING GAMES.
We lined up in double tight split-back or I formation and hit you in the mouth every single down. When we had a fast QB, we ran a lot of veer and we were very effective at it. When we didn't have a solid QB, we ran power, counter Iso, toss, quick pitch, etc, along with a some veer. We also had an effective PA game. We ran it as a no huddle; hustle to the ball and get as many plays in as possible throughout the game.
Although I agree with lochness in that it took a lot of coaching on the OL to get this done, we really didn't numbers in the weight room. Some of the kids got into the weight room, many did not. The system was kept very simple, with 4-5 blocking schemes that the kids had been repping every single year since they were in 9th grade. We out executed people all day long.
Someone made a comment about using the spread to get athletes on the field; well we did the same thing with the OL. We were very unorthodox; plugging in OLs that almost never averaged more than 200lb. The OL took second string RBs and LBs and plugged them into the OL. Many years, many of our starting OL were also starting LBs. The OL was fast, athletic and got off of the ball well. We relied heavily on double teams, pulling and good angles; ALONG WITH GOOD FUNDAMENTALS!!
As far as play calling goes, you need to be patient with this system; think in terms of first downs, not touch downs. Generate as many 3rd and short situations and possible. We really only 10-15 passes a game; always PA. But, there were a lot of games where we gained 200+ yards passing because of our PA.
This type of system can be run and its not rocket science to do it. If anything, the HC needs to learn the ins-n-outs of the OL and take them over; thats the key to success.
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Post by coachcastleman on Aug 1, 2008 8:56:17 GMT -6
I agree with the the HC coaching the OL. We only have four coaches, last year we only had three, for the whole program. I coach the OL for several reasons. As a newer head coach, I feel it give me a better understanding of the offense we are running. I understand the block angles and then can explain to the running back why he needs to run to a certain whole because of the blocking scheme. I am also make sure that we are coaching up the fundamentals every day. OL may not be as flashy as coaching the RBs or QBs, but I believe it helps us when games.
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Post by breadmakesmepoop on Aug 21, 2008 20:39:28 GMT -6
Coachbiggers,
You can see it every friday night up here. Our opponents usually do it to us.
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sbv
Sophomore Member
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Post by sbv on Aug 22, 2008 9:57:12 GMT -6
As someone said, "Annihilate " is a huge word. When I see or hear it in terms of football I remember reading the Football Coach Bible, in the section on how to build a high school football program, there was a coach from PA who had all five of his linemen bench over 400lbs, with some benching 500lbs. I imagine they could annihilate someone.
As far as seeing spread teams, there was a post on here a while back that talked about the large number of teams that ran a spread offense but there were also a large number of those teams that did a very poor job of it. The program I just took over was an Air Raid team, and they didn't have anyone that could catch, or pass block (this is why the last guy is gone and I am now here). We are running the veer and the kids are responding well and we look to be successful.
While I hope to continue to have those football players keep coming it wouldn't hurt to have some of the "Johnny Basketball" players to come out as well. Someone needs to stalk block.
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Post by coachaaron on Aug 22, 2008 11:56:17 GMT -6
I think the spread came about because it worked against the defenses that were in place. Since everyone was playing smash mouth, defenses were typically stocked with big heavy players in a 4-3 or 5-3. So, the best thing to do is spread out a big heavy defense and make them run in the open field. Now, a lot of defenses run 3-3-5 or some sort of nickle as a based D to deal with basketball on grass. Pretty soon, offenses will realize they effectively go heavy and play smash mouth football against a light and faster defense. The tide will turn. -Aaron www.beinekestrength.com
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Post by coachbiggers on Aug 22, 2008 12:49:01 GMT -6
I think the original intent of this post got very much misinterpreted. I wasn't questioning the SPREAD or any other offense. I was simply trying to point out the fact that everyone wants to know how this person runs an out, how so and so hands off from the gun, how does frankling have his WR step off the line?? And my whole point was a 5 yard out is just that a 5yard out! Everyone wants to claim to be a great inventor of this or that. So I was simply saying weather you run the A-11 or the Full House Bone, play football and stop OVER ANALYZING everything. People are paying HUGE dollars to learn how to put a wristband together so when I say to a player... You see this guy, destroy him and guess what I didn't need a consultant for that!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2008 14:35:58 GMT -6
Just line up and physically Annihilate their opponent anymore? Don't get me wrong i'm as creative as the next with a very deep passion for spreading the field and making you defend ALL four corners. However, lately i'm noticing a trend with all the so called experts, gurus and geniuses of the world running there "discovered" offense or defensive schemes. We have found a million names for a 5 yard out, the drag and the veer option have all gotten a make over!! We talk ad nauseum about what's the best way to block 4 guys vs. your 5!!! Now i'm no mathematician but I know that I have the advantage in that situation. Knock them on there A$$ and keep it moving. We have a motto it's no excuses just execution and we live and die by it. Although, I do love the spread, I mean LOVE the Spread. There has to something said about just plain ole GATA!!! Well that was my vent for today back to your regularly scheduled 10 ways to run the Waggle Period!! I'd like to , but unfortunately all our kids weigh about the same, we still try to lower the boom on them
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