"Tank" 1st year to build the program??

99 times out of a 100, you cannot make a program any worse. One of the reason you are hired is because the program is in shambles.
Those like it or not are reason the old coach is the old coach.
You draw your own conclusions.

Good question...

I think the answer is that you give the seniors an opportunity to "get on board"...some of them will, some of them will resist a new coach who comes in with high expectations. Those kid need to be written off but, for the seniors who stand by you and embrace your vision, I think you have to find a place for those kids.

I think you put the ball in the seniors' court...give those kids every opportunity to be a part of your vision and, if they do, let them contribute. However, if they resist and risk spreading cancer, you have to play for the future.

I know a guy who through the seniors under the bus. there was a large to do about it.
it was a small school of 300 students. he promoted all the jr and sophs to varsity. he only had like 5 srs and non had really played much.

those sophs took a beating on varisty but by the time they were seniors they were state champs. totaly turned the direction of the schools football program around.

I think that one of the worst things a new HC can do is throw his seniors under the bus that first year. As coaches, we have to be as consistent as possible; in every way possible. Plus, what kind of message are you sending to your program in that first year if you ditch the seniors? You're telling the kids that you don't have any faith in them; bad, bad deal for a coach.

If the juniors and underclassmen are the best players in their position, then that's the way it is. But, if it's close between a senior and a junior or underclassmen, then that senior should get the starting nod.

"How does a new HC best start to establish his program, WITHOUT really throwing the seniors under the bus?"

Don't play into this - there has to be some strengths about the present senior class that you can highlight along the way. I had a very weak senior class (my first season of my present job) and always made sure that I spoke about the fact that the seniors knew how to treat the underclassmen and used this as their "stamp" on leadership. Many were experiencing a drop in playing time as the season grew longer but there were no quitters. This wasn't a cheap way to get their minds off of diminished playing time but a way to honor what they did contribute during my first season with them.

As a matter of fact the "leader" of this first senior groups stood up in the lockerroom after our last game that season and enthusiastically addressed the underclassmen about how they needed to buy in 100% (and work harder during the off-season, etc.) because his senior class didn't. It was very powerful. He started by saying that he didn't trust the coaches at the beginning of the season but he now sees that what we were doing was the best way and he wished he could start over.

We found a way to honor our departing seniors during the season and they got the last word in by leaving a message of "don't screw up an opportunity like we did."

You just have to find a way to not show the youngins that the ones before them will be honored in some fashion. Now I have seniors talking about the legacy their group will known for.

I agree with the above. Why do you have to tank anything by installing your stuff. Are these kids and coaches so feeble minded that they cant change or are they too stubborn and lazy to change. Change is a major issue in life, things are always changing (look at our economy right now) if you can't improvise, adapt and overcome you will never be successful. I say jump in with both feet. Sell your stuff to the staff right now - if they don't like it, cant do it , wont do it your way - find a way to get them to invest. Sell your stuff to the senior (see above). It is your program, your offense, your defense. If you compromise now - you will be forever compromised. You were hired because you are the expert or the best person for the job. Its not a "its my way or the highway" deal its a "Here is my stuff and here is why it is great stuff" Don't go into it negative - go into it positive - This is a great opportunity for the seniors to begin the "Coach ---- Era" - "You will always be the first group who started this" whatever. YOU MUST GET EVERYONE ON THE SAME PAGE FIRST - If you don't have time - run a basic fundamentals practice for 3 days and meet after practice to teach your stuff. Slowly add new stuff each day - Have an organize install plan and pick the basic offense you need to win the first game. You must decide where you want to be next year - 5 years and 10 years from now. Have a vision of what you want YOUR offense & defense to look like.

be a coach ... it's not black and white ... it's shades of gray. depending on when you take over, determines how much and what that first year. you want to be successful from the start but you must be smart at how you go about achieving it... i.e. be a coach.

scrap everything with 1 month to go? try to install it all with 3 weeks to go? completely new offense/defense on the first day of fall camp?

are any of those feasible and practical?

why not, say, we have a month before the season -- won't see our kids except during 7on7 so need to establish a few base plays. we will try to install this portion of our package for now, we can adapt that portion of "old" system to fit and get better mileage than completely starting from scratch. now, we are gonna change the NAMES of some of those plays - helps us out in future years when implementing our entire package - but we are not going to get bogged down with trying to put in everything since we lack time.

W.I.N. - what's important now

""""we will do this the first year because it takes time, need to put the total program in place and don't have time to do it all up front so will use increments--- find what current team can do WITHIN the new while not trying to overwhelm or overload.

the second year - starting in offseason - we will do this as we add the whole thing or a large percentage of our system... now that time is on our side we can better evaluate and establish our procedures. """"

however, if i call the smash route "nevada" but the old coach called it "china" ... and i deem the smash a vital part of our offense, guess what the smash route is going to be called that first day? nevada... why? because in the long run it helps me, and how freakin hard is it to remember that? we didn't change the play, we just changed the name. and, in year 2, or week 8 of year 1, having the play called nevada allows us to go to the second portion of the offense or do some other things within our no huddle -- i.e. the language lends itself to us continuing to grow the offense.

I am with coachcb on this one..especially if you are talking about "program". While airman's strategy is the most logical "on paper", I believe it discounts some human nature aspects. I have seen this particular action nearly implode a very solid program because those involved are not robots, but humans. TEENS at that. I believe you run into two main issues when you go with the "more time in the program" approach :

1. The potential to cut into underclassmen support/numbers. While some underclassmen might be ready to compete, I would say that generally, they are "waiting for their time". High School football is a special time in a young persons life, and at quality programs many young men/women put in 3 years of blood,sweat,tears, and time for 1 year of "glory". If the coach gets a reputation for dumping on the seniors--valid or not--I don't see as many people putting in those 3 for the 1.

2. Team chemistry can suffer. If, as you said, the players are equal...the REST of your seniors are going to back their classmate. The attitudes this can create cause headaches that waste the Header's time and energy.

Typing this up made me think of something else..which I will just throw out there. We often hear (and I often say) it is a "program" not a team. Just curious if this is somewhat of a myopic and selfish statement...because we as coaches get to preside over "the program" indefinitely, but the lifeblood of the program, the players, only enjoy a few teams.

is it 3 years of blood swear and tears or 3 years of showing up. when lou holtz took over notre dame he go them up at 6 am in the off season and ran them to death. this seperated the pretenders for the contendors. ND had become a college where people thought just showing up was good enough.

most high school coaches take over losing programs and try to set them in a new direction. the seniors typically are guys who just showed up and are now too late to catch the train unless they are say a tim brown who played on a losing team.

the best kids play is my motto. if a freshman is the best qb then he plays.

I guess I care little what people think of me cause I know winning is what chages people attitudes. every one wants to be part of a winner. like it or not we are charged with winning games. now do we play people who are seniors to make them feell good or do we start those who are going to give you the most return on your investment.

If I were in charge of this program depending on the state rules I would condition the heck out of them in the offseason and during camp. camp would be tough, 4 two hour practices every day. this would take care of most of my problems. the seniors who really wanted to play would make it.

I remember mark speckman talking about his first year coaching high school ball he cut 32 seniors becasue they had failed to meet the standards of the off season plan. it caused great problems but they survived.

good thread have enjoyed reading it thanks

But, given that the senior and the junior/underclassmen are equal at their position; you're still looking at the same performance at the position.

What happens next year when that junior is now a senior and now he has a couple underclassmen that are his equal? Still not creating a 2-3 year starter, you're still getting a 1 year starter each year.

There's no way that you can justify it with that senior either. How is he supposed to buy into the greater good after working hard for 3 years, earning his spot and then riding the bench? How are any of your kids going to buy into it if that's the case?

Having pride in your program, trust in your coach and a love of the game is the foundation of winning programs. Playing favorites with the juniors and underclassmen isn't going to foster that in any way.

CB...I don't think it goes against your original philosophy, because HARD WORK (in my eyes) is part of being a player. So if you believe the ON field abilities are equal, and the underclassmen definitively outworks the upperclassmen, the players are NOT equal, and the nod goes to the younger kid.

to me if a jr and a sr are equal, the jr is going to start and get the most reps. The sr had his chance to win the starting job. one has to remember we are building for the future in this example. If you are a winning program you most likely can afford the senior to play.

you make an interesting point. we as coaches have next year and the kids do not.

I think way too many coaches have the wait until next you to win mentality. They get it into their heads they will ride out this season and next year when we have better talent we will win.

to me the future is now, not next year. why are seniors so special? I realize you want seniors to play. actually you want jrs who played and now are seniors. but either way you want you upper classman(jr and sr.) to be the dominate force on your team. It works best this way and will continue.

however if you are at a school with a losing tradition, what is the benefit of playing the seniors who have been part of this losing tradition?

If one can right the ship by changing the mentality through bringing up the sophs to play varsity I see no problem with this.

the reason I like sports is it truely is free market capitalism at work. The best play regardless of class. It seems many are arguing that a protectionist scheme should be in place for the seniors because they have put in years of service.

Seems to me this is the teacher mentality to be honest. We reward those based on service of years instead of meritt.

I live in a free market world. i believe those who can be the most productive for the longest period are the ones who will play. I also believe that no one is special regardless of age or service and I believe no one is irreplaceable.