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Post by coachcb on Jul 14, 2008 14:38:52 GMT -6
One of the common things that comes up in threads is schools new "no tolerance policy" with respect to fighting in school. This has been a response to the wave of school shootings that we are plagued with every other year. However, we have kids with clean records practically being expelled from school for getting into a fist fight. Tough subject, how you do you guys feel.?
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burn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 181
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Post by burn on Jul 14, 2008 15:02:43 GMT -6
Coach,
When you bring up Columbine which was a horrible tragedy I think there were many more issues than kids fighting while at school. With that said, I think when young boys in elementary school fight it is developmental. They are programmed to be rough and it is a manifestation of the way boys are built. Some boys this may not be true but when you look at boys as compared to girls when they are young boys get into more fights. I also think it is a part of maturity. Boys fighting in Jr. High and High School is a little different. Sometimes it needs to be done but other times it is a form of bullying and harassment. There is no place in education for either bullying or harassment. The male gender was blessed or cursed with testosterone and there is only two purposes for that hormone and it has nothing to do with reason. Ask A-Rod or Mr. Clinton.
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Post by airman on Jul 14, 2008 16:55:21 GMT -6
i used to be for this type of policy but no longer. I decided that each case was different when I read about a girl in Florida who under as zero tolerance policy lost her scholarship and was not allowed to graduate with her class because a school employee found knives in her car. see her and her mom were moving and she had a box full of dinner knives and plates in her car. she was never a problems in fact she was an excellent student.
the family ended up bring a lawsuit against the school.
I also oppose the current policy most states have with regards to sentencing of criminals. our prisons are full of nonviolent offenders because of mandatory sentencing guidelines handcuff judges.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 14, 2008 17:27:40 GMT -6
I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion about why the Columbine tragedy occurred. However, as most of us are educators, the nation's response to these school shootings has been a topic of interest. In some ways, I feel that the no tolerance policy is a good one, but I think that it's been taken too far.
At a school I coached at, we had a player get into a fight. He and a friend were cornered by a group of students and a fight broke out. Nobody got really hurt, other than some bumps and bruises and the whole thing wasn't really a big deal.
This player of ours had a clean record, decent grades and was well liked by just about everyone. He was kicked out of school for 5 days and wasn't allowed to make up any of the homework. His GPA fell an entire point and he ended up taking summer school. He had misdemeanor charges pressed against him, he was put on probation and had to do community service.
The students that he got into with all had several previous fights on their records, along with assorted other b.s. They all ended up with the same punishment as our player from the school, but (thankfully) the courts were tired of them and hit them with steep fines and large amounts of community service.
What makes the whole thing worse was that after the fight, our player was continually harassed by this group of kids. Our player avoided another fight and tried to ignore them, but one day he came to a tutoring session in tears. He told me the whole situation and I contacted the administration. The school held a mediation session; WHERE THEY THREATENED TO KICK OUR PLAYER OUT OF SCHOOL FOR GOOD IF THERE WAS ANY MORE TROUBLE.
So in this case, I'd say overkill is a good description.
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Post by carson101 on Jul 14, 2008 17:52:44 GMT -6
I think the subject that should lead this topic would be school bullies, that being said more and more kids are bullied, tired of it responding with extreem force then thus having more turmoil in the school system. Fighting is a small part of that. I will elaborate more later.
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Post by k on Jul 14, 2008 21:03:13 GMT -6
He was kicked out of school for 5 days and wasn't allowed to make up any of the homework. Ummm what? That doesn't sound right... |
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Post by eickst on Jul 14, 2008 21:28:29 GMT -6
Can't blame the schools with all of the lawsuits coming around. "Why'd you suspend my kid and not that little bastard?  My son isn't a bully he's just assertive!!" |
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Post by fatkicker on Jul 14, 2008 21:52:04 GMT -6
i only have a problem with the punishment when it depends on whose son it is that gets in a fight.....
if the principal suspends the poor kid for 2 weeks, but the quarterback for only 2 days then i have a problem with it......or the other way around......if the punishment is consistent i have no problem....
we can blame whoever we want......but how many times do our kids get in fights and do absolutely nothing to provoke it?
i can hear it....."but coach i didn't do anything. i was standing there eating cheetos." when what really happened was the football player made a conscious choice to walk as close to his "enemy" as he could to see if the other guy would say something........when he gets close, the other guy punches first, and the fight is on.......
was it the football player's fault? technically no..........but if he would have gotten his cheetos and stayed over close to his friends then nothing would have happened......
i know there was a time when the coach would take the boys out to the football field and let them fight it out until all was resolved, or they were too tired to swing at each other..........that day is long gone........kids can't fight and forget.......they get offended when they get beat up and want to go get a gun........or a momma would be upset if little johnny came home with a black eye........the school would be sued, and the coach would be thrown under the jail....
you can't take fighting lightly..........unless you enjoy complete chaos and lawsuits.......
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burn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 181
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Post by burn on Jul 14, 2008 23:07:48 GMT -6
Coaches,
In my insanity I was a vice principal for a year and a principal for two years before pulling my head out and going back into teaching. In the school I was at there was a discipline matrix that I had to follow. Much of the matrix was from the California education code so there was a basis for it. In the matrix fighting no matter what was punishable by suspension. The suspension days were different for age groups but still they were suspended. We did provide homework and the kid was able to do make up work. The problem was I did not agree with it and so many times I told the kid and the parents I would have done the exact same thing. Fatkicker is right though that there needs to be something done by the school because of our litigious society. So many parents came in and only cared about the other kid and his punishment not their kid's behavior. It was brutal I just wanted to tell these parents there kid deserved it and the other kid should get a brownie for putting him in his place. The worst example I ever had was a military family whose special education kid that had, get this, O.D.D. What is O.D.D, oppositional defiant disorder. There actually was a medical condition for being a di@%. The kid got into a fight about once a month with different kids every time and never won but his parents blamed the other kids. Brutal conversations with weak enabling parents. One conversation the mother screamed at me that I was only blaming her kid. I said well there is one common denominator in this equation and it is your kid. Parents wanted to sue me they called the cops on all of these other kids, all I can say is ridiculous. The kid was very intelligent. So to my point if I have one. We have set up a situation where seniority and the laws of nature are not adhered to. Freshman can tell a senior to go f himself and the kid can't do anything. At one time there was an understanding that if you did something stupid there were reprecussions but now there is only the discipline of the school and the natural order of things is out of balance. My best example would be from growing up with three older brothers and having two parents that were marines. If I popped off to one of my brothers I paid for it with pain, end of story. My parents only got involved when there was blood and the time my brothers thought it was funny to put me in a sleeping bag spin it around a bunch of times and throw me in the pool, but other than that it was each of us on our own. There was a balance and natural laws that we all understood.
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Post by eickst on Jul 15, 2008 0:25:03 GMT -6
I would love to see the movie "A Christmas Story" redone in today's times.
Ralphie's parents would get sued for the beating he put on the bully who abused everyone at school.
After that, Ralphie would be gunned down by police when they thought his red ryder was a real rifle and he was a terrorist.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 15, 2008 10:03:33 GMT -6
He was kicked out of school for 5 days and wasn't allowed to make up any of the homework. Ummm what? That doesn't sound right...[/quote Yup, that's right. Suspension days are considered unexcused absences. Unexcused absences equal no make up work allowed. Luckily, most of his teachers showed some pity and gave him extra credit opportunities, but he still had to retake a class or two. |
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 15, 2008 10:11:21 GMT -6
I would love to see the movie "A Christmas Story" redone in today's times.
Ralphie's parents would get sued for the beating he put on the bully who abused everyone at school.
After that, Ralphie would be gunned down by police when they thought his red ryder was a real rifle and he was a terrorist.
Don't forget the lawsuit that would be filed by Flick's parents after he was "triple dog-dared" to lick the flagpole.
I was pretty close to the Columbine situation. I grew up there (went to a neighboring school), knew 1 student who was killed there (Rachel Scott). I knew Coach Saunders a little bit too. Several Columbine students were former participants in an Elementary-Sunday School Christmas musical directed by my mother. Plus I was coaching in Colorado at the time so I knew a lot of coaches on the Columbine football staff who lived through the ordeal.
What I took from all that happened, strictly on a school level is that as coaches we need to have high character and behavioral expectations for our players. I'm not saying athletes caused the bullying. I am saying, that a few guys who go out of their way to be compassionate could alleviate a lot of potential problems.
What I saw immediately after Columbine was an honor student being expelled because she had a knife in a first aid kit in her car (actual story from the district I was in at the time).
Anymore, I am on the side that legislation is never the answer. Legislation: secures our borders, keeps out economy running, implements NCLB, etc.
And most legislation on this issue has been an emotional response with good intentions, but with illogical and potentially destructive consequences.
I am all for having consequences, and am certainly for allowing kids to face the adversity they have earned with their behavior.
"if the principal suspends the poor kid for 2 weeks, but the quarterback for only 2 days then i have a problem with it......or the other way around......if the punishment is consistent i have no problem...."
I disagree. rather than consistency, I want fairness; and fairness isn't necessarily equality. We had an altercation a few years ago between a football player (not the brightest kid, but enough on the ball to know better, popular kid who was a varsity letter-winner in 3 sports as a freshman) and well...a kid who is kind of a loner and a loser. The FB player got two days out of school suspension, the other kid got a detention. I supported that 100% (at that time I was the Principal). Here is why: The FB player (athlete) has more responsibility because more people look up to him (still true in a small school), has more notoriety, thus more responsibility. He represents our school and our community as well as himself... and he understands that (at least he does now).
If a guy who works at a convenience store in town here goes in to the bar, gets hammered and gets in to three fights, people will talk about it, but it will not be a big issue. If I (AD/Head Football Coach) do the same thing, that incident would bring a lot of negativity to the school.
I do not want us to be a Columbine- but you don't prevent that by expelling a girl who has a butter knife in her lunch sack. You do that by finding the leaders in your school and making them accountable for promoting compassion, kindness and decent human behavior. They will fail at times, and then you let them deal with consequences and handle adversity so they can grow in to the people they are capable of being.
My thoughts anyway...
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Post by phantom on Jul 15, 2008 10:45:50 GMT -6
I'm not a fan of the "the athlete has greater responsibility" argument because of two incidents that happened at the school where I teach.
In one a football player was attacked, a completely unprevoked attack and no one disputed that. For defending himself he got the same suspension as the thug who jumped him. The principal said that the athlete has greater responsibility.
In another incident our basketball coach got suspended for a game. Near the end of a close game they were huddled and a player from the other team was hanging out near the huddle listening. The coach didn't push the kid. He just "a$$ed" him out of a place where he had no business. The kid thugs up, some of our players react, and a brawl ensues. Coach gets suspended because he had a "greater responsibility".
I agree that athletes should be held to a higher standard of behavior but were either of these situations fair?
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Post by senatorblutarsky on Jul 15, 2008 13:08:29 GMT -6
Phantom,
No.
And I do take in to account I'm in a completely different world right now than most of you. Plus, when I was the one administering discipline, I always give the benefit of the doubt to the athletes. I've been accused too of treating athletes better. My response is always "they've earned it". But in our situation, the athlete was picking on this kid because he thought it was funny... and the kid he was picking on could have taken a whoopin’ from any 7th grader (he was a freshman at the time)... but he did have that kind of mindset for revenge... and we live in an area where guns are very prevalent.
We had a situation in Colorado similar to the one with your FB player... and our player really got screwed (not by the school, but by some spineless judge. He had to spend thanksgiving weekend in jail. It was kind of a blessing that we lost in the playoffs the round before that weekend- very few people knew about his 4 days in jail).
And blanket statements often have a way of coming back and biting you. What I mean when I said this is that coaches and athletes have tremendous influence, and should be expected not to be perfect, but to be compassionate.
I've never told a player to not defend himself (I may have strongly suggested TO defend himself in some situations). But I tell our guys there is no need to ridicule or humiliate others just because they aren't athletic or aren't cool...and that is where a lot of these problems get their fuel.
That's where they have the responsibility. And it seems you are in agreement there.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 15, 2008 14:36:28 GMT -6
My major issue with the situation I described was that:
a. Our player really was defending himself; he didn't provoke anyone. The group of kids were after his friend and our player was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
b. The kid never had any trouble with anyone at the school until that situation. He got a long great with everyone; staff and students alike. I have coached more than my fair share of kids that honestly would deserve a 5 day suspension in this situation. They would've provoked the whole thing from start to finish. But this player has a heart of gold; the meekest, most humble player I have ever worked with.
This issue is not really black and white for me; the no tolerance policy is a tough one for sure. I didn't honestly see the some of the reasoning behind these heavy handed punishments until last spring. I took an 8 inch blade off of a 7th grader who had gotten into a fight off of school grounds the day before. Now, only Nostradamus could tell us what the little moron was going to with the knife, but I can guess what he was thinking.
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Post by k on Jul 15, 2008 20:14:01 GMT -6
Yup, that's right. Suspension days are considered unexcused absences. Unexcused absences equal no make up work allowed. Luckily, most of his teachers showed some pity and gave him extra credit opportunities, but he still had to retake a class or two. District should be sued for failing to provide a proper education for the kid who was removed. IMO you in give an in school suspension and require 100% completion of work for him to leave after 5 days. |
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My son isn't a bully he's just assertive!!"