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Post by talexander on Jul 10, 2008 5:25:19 GMT -6
Had a kid who played FB for 3 years in our program. Was never a starter, but did get ball frequently. We converted him to Guard @ begining of Spring Ball. He reluctantly agreed and has completed spring and 4 weeks of summer ball. He now comes to me, almost in tears saying he doesn't see why he was moved, that there are others who could do it and that he can contribute as RB.
We did have a little of this @ beginning, but we told him that he might not play Defense (he is starting LB) if he didn't at least try. We are extremely short at OL. I have given him the whole team speel, but to no avail. My first thought is to put someone else there, and give him no reps at RB and LB. He could carry the ball for us, but we need him more at OL. What do you think.
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Post by lochness on Jul 10, 2008 5:39:08 GMT -6
Ask him if he is a FOOTBALL PLAYER or not. If he is a FOOTBALL PLAYER, then it shouldn't matter where he plays. If he is only out there to get the ball, then he is in the wrong sport. That's what he needs to hear.
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Post by justryn2 on Jul 10, 2008 5:54:00 GMT -6
The tough part about this is that, if you force him to play OL when he doesn't want to, he is not likely to give 100% at that position. On the other hand, you need this kid to step up a be a football player not just a LB or RB. There is no easy answer on this. However, as a longer term approach, you need to make OL special.
There some other threads on this board that deal with this subject specifically. Basically, do everything you can think of to make the players on the O-Line feel special. At team dinners, O-Line players eat first. Introduce the O-Line first (or last if you consider that more special) at all functions. Have special awards, t-shirts, helmet stickers, etc. just for the O-Line. Lets face it, the only time these players get noticed on the field is when the DON'T do their jobs. Make it special privilege to get to play on the O-Line; like a team within a team, and maybe in the future you'll have an easier time getting quality athletes to play these critical positions.
Good luck Coach!
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rock85
Sophomore Member
Posts: 125
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Post by rock85 on Jul 10, 2008 6:04:04 GMT -6
I think once you let 1 player make their case for changing positions, then you open the door for anyone on your roster to do the same thing.....
If this player decides to dog it while playing guard, then his problem is solved -- he is standing next to me on Friday nights and does not need to worry about playing guard anymore (Fb either, for that matter.....)
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Coach H
Sophomore Member
Posts: 146
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Post by Coach H on Jul 10, 2008 6:07:32 GMT -6
This could cause you some major problems in the future if you give in. Don't change his position because he wants to. It's a team game and if he wants to be apart of the team he will know is role. Even if the role means getting adjusted to a new position. Last year at the school I coached at we had 4 FB's and there was kid who was a junior high stud. We had lost all of our OL but one returner. We wanted to move him to Guard and he caught wind of it before we could sit him down. The next month or two all we heard was he was going to transfer if we changed is position. The HC didn't change his position and lets just say it cost us big time. Don't give in keep him there!!!! Try to sale the benefits of being a Lineman.
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Post by jgordon1 on Jul 10, 2008 6:07:34 GMT -6
Love the idea of oline eating first. We start every practice by pulling in tight and at the count of three the oline says HEART and SOUL we do this because we are the heart and soul of the team
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Post by lochness on Jul 10, 2008 6:22:53 GMT -6
I TOTALLY agree with "making the OL THE place to be!"
We've put a ton of effort into this in past years, and it's really paid off. We had to move a couple of FB's or TE's to guard in the past, and they've always embraced it...and most of the time they end up starting rather than being 2nd team or role players in their former positions.
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Post by schultbear74 on Jul 10, 2008 6:51:19 GMT -6
Had a similar problem with a young man, who by default is the back-up QB. He came into the office and told the head coach that he did not want to play TE this year- just QB on offense. He is a starter on Defense. He lost the QB battle last year and would've been 3rd string this year if we hadn't lost the second stringer to basketball.
Our current QB would play anywhere if you let him.
If kids want to play at the next level, they better be flexible if they want to get on the field. I think thet our HC will let it be known who the team players are.
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 10, 2008 8:17:06 GMT -6
Coach move him back to FB and never play him.
We have a kid on our team that could be a starting DE/OLB, well his uncle is a Former CB for the Jets who swears he is a safety. He is far from it, so we haven't made him play DE/OLB because he has begged to play Safety so he is getting his wish he is a safety. He is safe from the field on fridays from playing defense he will stand next to me.
While I agree you have to make the OL special, at this point he doesn't want to play there don't play him there. Move him back to FB and if he never plays offense he will understand the lesson.
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Post by lochness on Jul 10, 2008 8:25:39 GMT -6
Coach move him back to FB and never play him. We have a kid on our team that could be a starting DE/OLB, well his uncle is a Former CB for the Jets who swears he is a safety. He is far from it, so we haven't made him play DE/OLB because he has begged to play Safety so he is getting his wish he is a safety. He is safe from the field on fridays from playing defense he will stand next to me. While I agree you have to make the OL special, at this point he doesn't want to play there don't play him there. Move him back to FB and if he never plays offense he will understand the lesson. HA...yeah, that works too!!  |
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Post by coachsky on Jul 10, 2008 8:49:09 GMT -6
To me you have to make a quick evaluation.
Is this kid going to really make your team better starting on the oline and playing both ways?
If that is clearly the case you have to explain it to him and compel him to move to the o-line.
We have a few cases every year where there is a player that is adamant about playing a specific position and we want him to play somewhere else, quite often this is being driven by a parent. If the player is not a potential starter, we let him stay there, like coach the whip says, he's learning a tough lesson. If the kid can start or contribute down the road we flat out tell them, "you'll never seen the field playing this spot, if you move to this position you will probably earn a spot." For me this has worked 90% of the time. Kids want playing time.
This year alone we have:
A starting OT that thinks he's a TE.
We have a DT that thinks hes a MLB.
We have a G that thinks he's a FB.
A DE that thinks he's a OLB.
A WR that thinks he's the TB.
A starting Junior QB that thinks he's the OC!
By the third day of spring ball we had everybody in the positions we needed to be successful. The only ones with their noses outta shape are a few Dad's, and as fas as I know their still writing checks to the Booster club. All is good.
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Post by highball007 on Jul 10, 2008 8:51:37 GMT -6
This seems to be a norm around the nation right now.
For the most part 10-20 years ago big kids just played football because they played sense the first day they were told they could. I am at a big high school and we have had 2 OL/DL guys show up this summer to the weight room and conditioning. We had a OL/DL kid transfer from another school were he won a state championship playing OL/DL. He comes to our school which is 3 divisions higher and he thinks he is a RB/LB.
Why are kids in it for themselves so much now days? I would have played where ever my coach told me to play.
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Post by lochness on Jul 10, 2008 9:00:47 GMT -6
This seems to be a norm around the nation right now. For the most part 10-20 years ago big kids just played football because they played sense the first day they were told they could. I am at a big high school and we have had 2 OL/DL guys show up this summer to the weight room and conditioning. We had a OL/DL kid transfer from another school were he won a state championship playing OL/DL. He comes to our school which is 3 divisions higher and he thinks he is a RB/LB. Why are kids in it for themselves so much now days? I would have played where ever my coach told me to play. 1. Parents are 'enablers' 2. Parents do not teach personal accountability 3. School systems are more interested in avoiding getting sued by parents then they are of producing a generation of well educated, disciplined kids 4. "Instant gratification" in our culture 5. Parents convince little Johnny that he's the next Reggie Bush, if only coach weren't stupid enough to have him playing Tackle 6. Not as much respect for "team concepts" or "authority" because of this And, no, I'm not 70 years old. I'm actualy in my early 30's.  This job would be awesome it it wasn't for parents and crappy spineless school administrations. |
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Post by CoachCP on Jul 10, 2008 10:21:43 GMT -6
If he a could lead blocker? Put in a "Smash" package for this kid and put him in the backfield on special occasions. Maybe put another offensive linemen, your top back up, as the lead blocker.
I mean, if you could use him, like you said, you've justified this concept a bit. It takes a bit of extra time, but tell him if he wants to play any Runningback that he should commit himself extra. If he proves to be a good linemen, why not let him get a few carries? Just tell him to come to you after practice or something and try working on the basic steps for runningback, it shouldn't take long if he's played it so long. Tell him he's a linemen first, and if he doesn't give the full effort there he won't get any carries.
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Post by superpower on Jul 10, 2008 10:26:22 GMT -6
We give a speech every year early on about this topic. We tell our players that the team always comes first, but we also tell them that we will not force them to play a position they don't want to play. However, we also explain that there are no guarantees that they will get on the field. If they are happy to be the number 3 or 4 RB instead of the number 1 or 2 OG or OT, that is up to them. We also point out that we only have 1 QB, 2 wings, and 1 FB while we have 2 TEs, 2 OTs, 2 OGs, and a center; so they greatly increase their chances of gaining playing time if they play on the offensive line.
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burn
Sophomore Member
Posts: 181
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Post by burn on Jul 10, 2008 12:19:08 GMT -6
Coach,
If the kid wants the ball put him at center and let him snap it. He'll get to touch the ball every play.
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Post by mwpilots on Jul 10, 2008 13:06:08 GMT -6
Line up your team with him at FB but no guard. Then call a play for him going thru the hole where the guard would be. After doing this a few times, ask him "who you should put there?" or "who does he think is best for the position?" Explain to him that "NOBODY is more important than the team.The team ,The team,The team." The team is not here for your glory, you are here for the glory of the team. 10-20 years from now nobody is going to remember how many carries you had, but they will remember that you went to war with them and that is what counts in the end. When and if he finally gets the lesson, make his candy a$$ bearcrawl from one goalpost to the other and back for bringing you this BS.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 13:18:24 GMT -6
Had a kid who played FB for 3 years in our program. Was never a starter, but did get ball frequently. We converted him to Guard @ begining of Spring Ball. He reluctantly agreed and has completed spring and 4 weeks of summer ball. He now comes to me, almost in tears saying he doesn't see why he was moved, that there are others who could do it and that he can contribute as RB. We did have a little of this @ beginning, but we told him that he might not play Defense (he is starting LB) if he didn't at least try. We are extremely short at OL. I have given him the whole team speel, but to no avail. My first thought is to put someone else there, and give him no reps at RB and LB. He could carry the ball for us, but we need him more at OL. What do you think. I think you gave your solution in typing out the problem. "saying he doesn't see why he was moved, that there are others who could do it and that he can contribute as RB." Did you explain the move, or did you assume that a 17/18 year old would see it? Did you explain to him that you feel the team is stronger with HIM at guard, and Joey at FB, than it would be with him at FB, and anyone else at guard? If that is a direct quote from him... you can already see that in HIS MIND, RB's contribute, and OL's play. That needs to be rectified immediately. Fullbacks and TE's are the two most waisted positions in H.S in my opinion. The kids learn at an early age that "skilled" players are good players, and everyone else is a MMP. After playing in that environment for 10 years or so, is it any wonder he doesn't look at this as a demotion? |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2008 14:19:43 GMT -6
Is he your best FB? To me, this relates to something I read in Bobby Bowden's book. Coach Bowden says he won't "force" kids to switch positions, but he will explain the depth chart to a kid if he doesn't want to move. Most of the time, the kid goes where the PT is.
Now, if he is your best FB, play him at FB and find an alternative for the oline. If he is your best FB, has played it for three years, he has no reason to understand the move IMO.
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Post by coachcb on Jul 10, 2008 14:26:49 GMT -6
I wouldn't even try to sell the OL to him; he's been asked to do something to make the team better and he isn't buying it. So, I don't even waste my time with it; find someone who wants to play and coach them up.
I was in your shoes last year; almost the same situation. I had a kid who had played TE for 2 years, but I moved him to OG because I needed some speed/athleticism on the OL. Funny thing was, he hadn't caught more than 10 balls in 2 years; he just liked being a "skill guy". He wasn't happy about the whole thing, even tried to turn mommy loose on me. LOL...
He was also a DE for us, so I explained to him that if he wanted to play defense, that he needed to do what was best for the team. He went out during 2-a-days, flew around and made tackles at DE, but gave no effort at the OG spot. His BS was starting to become contagious too; the team had a chip on it's shoulder for a few days. I warned him about the whole thing once, he gave me attitude, and then he spent the rest of the year on the bench next to me.
Honestly, he was the best DL I had and we would've been better with him out there. But, I the kids who took his spot at DE did their job and we got someone at OG that wanted to play for us.
My take away message from that fiasco was simple; you will always have kids on your team that want to play and will play where they are needed. They have bought into the team concept and at the very least can do an adequate job. It's not fair to them to give playing time to a whiny turd with a bad attitude. You can't ask a whole team to be self-less when you're catering to a punk.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 15:00:01 GMT -6
Is he your best FB? To me, this relates to something I read in Bobby Bowden's book. Coach Bowden says he won't "force" kids to switch positions, but he will explain the depth chart to a kid if he doesn't want to move. Most of the time, the kid goes where the PT is. This is a hard point to argue with, HOWEVER, I would say that Bobby comes from a different perspective. He can just recruit the next Blue Chipper, and the talent disparity is usually quite thin at the National Power level. Things like discipline, football intellect,and work ethic are often what sets the depth chart. I have to disagree here. If he is your best FB, but the TEAM would benefit from him being your best or second best guard, you play him at guard and find an alternate at FB. As I said earlier in the thread, FB and TE are the most "overrated" positions in H.S ball. If you don't have a FB, it is easy to scheme around. If you don't have a TE, it is easy to scheme around... If you don't have a guard you are stuck. |
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MaineManiac
Junior Member
What you see depends on what you're looking for.
Posts: 311
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Post by MaineManiac on Jul 10, 2008 15:05:26 GMT -6
You only have to trim the branches once before the line of kids requesting position changes stops forming and players stop second guessing that you know what is best for the team.
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Post by airman on Jul 10, 2008 15:09:13 GMT -6
I was at a school where guys did not want to play oline. every one wanted to be a skill player, even that 300 lb blob.
the coach solved this problem in a very interesting way. He made a special room for the o and dlineman. It was nice and air conditioned. only the oline and dline could be in the room. the skill players had to sweat it out in the locker room because they were thought they were special because they were skill players. needless to say those kids who knew they were offensive and defensive lineman pretending to be skill players soon moved to the oline/dline room.
the coaches theory was the oline and dline deserved special treatment because they do not get much notice.
as for this kid I let the depth chart do the talking. this works really well when you platoon because there are limited options for fb/og type kids.
since I am a platoon coach I require every one to learn two potions on one side of the ball. db play backup safety. backup rb can play wr fullbacks are backups at rb or maybe guard if we are short.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 15:23:02 GMT -6
as for this kid I let the depth chart do the talking. this works really well when you platoon because there are limited options for fb/og type kids. since I am a platoon coach I require every one to learn two potions on one side of the ball. db play backup safety. backup rb can play wr fullbacks are backups at rb or maybe guard if we are short. Coach, what if the depth chart doesn't do the talking. In the case at hand, it seems that the 3 year FB is PROBABLY still the best FB (the original poster has not commented on that yet). HOWEVER he is also one of the best guards. A very common situation at the smaller levels. |
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Post by airman on Jul 10, 2008 15:27:31 GMT -6
as for this kid I let the depth chart do the talking. this works really well when you platoon because there are limited options for fb/og type kids. since I am a platoon coach I require every one to learn two potions on one side of the ball. db play backup safety. backup rb can play wr fullbacks are backups at rb or maybe guard if we are short. Coach, what if the depth chart doesn't do the talking. In the case at hand, it seems that the 3 year FB is PROBABLY still the best FB (the original poster has not commented on that yet). HOWEVER he is also one of the best guards. A very common situation at the smaller levels. I do not force kids to make changes. they tend to become cancers when forced to do things like that. if he is your best fullback then that is what he plays. I try to move kids when they are sophs and jrs. it is much eaiser that way. I allow kids to pick their positions. this way when they are not playing I can tell their parents they chose to be a 3rd string fulllback when they could have been a starting guard. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 15:48:17 GMT -6
I do not force kids to make changes. they tend to become cancers when forced to do things like that. if he is your best fullback then that is what he plays. [/quote Have to agree to disagree on this one. The TEAM needs to come first, not the ease in dealing parents. |
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Post by airman on Jul 10, 2008 16:10:01 GMT -6
I do not force kids to make changes. they tend to become cancers when forced to do things like that. if he is your best fullback then that is what he plays. [/quote Have to agree to disagree on this one. The TEAM needs to come first, not the ease in dealing parents. It is a beautiful sunny saturday moring. you have the tee time or fishing boat already set. now the wife on the other hand has a list of things to do and she tells you do it now or do not come home. so you know she means business and you cancel your plans. the whole time you are grumbling about how hard you work and you deserve a little time playing golf or fishing. you have now created a cancer in your marriage. this relates on the football field as well. force a kid to move and he does nto want to more often then not he is going to undercut you behind your back to his teammates. he has become a cancer but you do not know it until it is too late. so the kid is the 3rd string fullback but has pontential to start a guard. He does not want to make the move and is content sitting on the sideline let him sit on the side line. let sleeping dog lay. IS it team first when you as a coach try to force a round peg in a square hole? |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jul 10, 2008 16:20:18 GMT -6
Airman
First I have to say that creating an environment where everyone is playing for something bigger than themselves is paramount. The last HC i coached with did a GREAT job of this.
Two different scenarios in my opinion. I would agree with your treatment of the 3rd string FB vs Starting guard situation..because the kid is learning a lesson. Which is what we are about. But, I would do everything I could to get the kid to realize that he is hurting the team. HURTING!!!!! THE TEAM. I would point it out in PUBLIC, TO THE TEAM, that we need a guard, and we have people who wont step up (I would not mention names though)
HOWEVER, in the case at hand, where the kid is best at FB AND the best at GUARD, I think it is imperative for the kid to learn that the TEAM comes before him. Starting him at FB teaches him that HE comes before the team.
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Post by airitout616 on Jul 10, 2008 16:41:10 GMT -6
run the spread and take the FB out of your offense he wont have a choice ;D
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Post by airman on Jul 10, 2008 17:20:04 GMT -6
Airman First I have to say that creating an environment where everyone is playing for something bigger than themselves is paramount. The last HC i coached with did a GREAT job of this. Two different scenarios in my opinion. I would agree with your treatment of the 3rd string FB vs Starting guard situation..because the kid is learning a lesson. Which is what we are about. But, I would do everything I could to get the kid to realize that he is hurting the team. HURTING!!!!! THE TEAM. I would point it out in PUBLIC, TO THE TEAM, that we need a guard, and we have people who wont step up (I would not mention names though) HOWEVER, in the case at hand, where the kid is best at FB AND the best at GUARD, I think it is imperative for the kid to learn that the TEAM comes before him. Starting him at FB teaches him that HE comes before the team. Here is where we disagree. I am not a lesson teacher type coach. i am here to win football games and that is what I get paid to do. Now that might sound crass or hard but it is the truth. they hire and fire you based on your performance. now i will not cheat to win or bend the rules to win. However the objective here is to win football games at the varsity level. now I do agree sports in general teach valuable lessons to kids. however forcing a kid to move often creates a unhappy player. A team is like a well run machine. in a machine a part gets out of line it can destory the whole machine. To me forcing players to move is like biting in hand which feeds you. Too many coaches make mountians out of mole hills. this seems to be a trend in education at all levels as well. all a coach can do is ask a player to move. explain how this move benefits him and the team. then hope the kid will move. by the time you have discussed it with him and then made a public speech about this, he has already told his friends and they know exactly who you are talking about. so you have in away talked about him in public. I worked for a coach who installed a hidden micro phone in the locker room. he just wanted to hear what kids had to say. so he calls johnny into the office and talks with him. he does this purposly to see what he is going to tell his teammate. johnny leaves the office and the coach listens. the kid told his teammates the opposite of what the coach said to make the coach look bad. lets be honest here, kids will lie about you to their teammates to save face. very few kids are actually going to own up to things these days. I used to kid really steamed about a player when he would lie to his teammates about me. however then I realized it was not about me it was about the kid. people lie or have fits because it is about them. if coaches realized how little control they actually have in the lives of their players they woudl be amazed. |
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