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Post by carookie on Jun 27, 2008 17:47:38 GMT -6
I've read a lot on here about HS coaches having MS coaches run the same stuff; or the MS coach answering to the HS coach.
I was just wondering in how many instances is this the case?
I know in every school district I've been involved in each HS had at least 3-4 feeder MS. Moreover, any football played directly through the MS was flag; if you wanted tackle you played Pop Warner ball.
Is the opening situation more common that I know? Is it something that only takes place in smaller towns? It seems kinda foreign to me.
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Post by cmow5 on Jun 27, 2008 18:06:27 GMT -6
we have 2 major feeder schools and a couple that have a few kids going to our high school. Last year was my first year coaching and I was at the 8th grade level that fed into the high school I am at now. I worked with high school with scouting and going to clinics together. Now that being said the HC at the varsity level said for the last 17 years he had NO clue what was going on at the middle school. But, since the HC of the Middle school last year was one of his players and coached with him we ran a watered down version of their stuff on offense and updated him with everything. and yes it was/is tackle at the middle school and two hand touch at the elementary school. I do believe PENN (which is a state power house every year) runs the same stuff from pop warner/rocket,elementary,middle school and to the high school just simpler stuff. maybe thats way they have not lost a conference game in like 15 years.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 18:16:54 GMT -6
carookie
Here in Louisiana, I think it is "district to district" Our school districts are broken down by the parishes (counties). Our district (52 schools, 7 high schools --5 5A (top class) 1 4A 1 3A--) has tackle football for the 7th and 8th grades. Some of the jr. highs feed entirely into one high school, Some jr. highs feed into multiple high schools. No Jr. High "reports" to the High Schools, none run the same stuff etc.
Up in North Louisiana, I believe Don Shows at West Monroe is in charge of every school that feeds into his program. That middle school basketball coach..is helping out with football or he is finding a job in a different district.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 18:24:32 GMT -6
..... I do believe PENN (which is a state power house every year) runs the same stuff from pop warner/rocket,elementary,middle school and to the high school just simpler stuff. maybe thats way they have not lost a conference game in like 15 years. As I said in another thread, I think this is the one of the MOST OVERRATED things in high school sports. The fact that they run the same system is irrelevant. The fact that all 4 facets of football (pop warner, elementary, middle school, and high school) seem organized, dedicated, and show an attention to detail is probably why they have not lost a conference game in 15 years. Just my opinion, but I think schools like Evangel Christian and John Curtis Christian (both k-12 schools with football all the way down to the lower grammar school levels) could have each level use an entirely different system, with entirely different terminology but teach with the same level of organization and detail that they do now... and the results would be nearly identical as they are now.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 27, 2008 19:18:24 GMT -6
We have 2 middle schools and both feed our high school. We are a 1 high school district. Both run our systems (O & D ). Middle school ball for us is 1 7th grade team and 1 8th grade team. Our rec league runs our systems, grade 3-6 is tackle.
Obviously, they run a watered down version of what we do. The big thing is that ALL of our rec league teams have same mascot as the high school. We have the red Rebels, blue Rebels, silver Rebels..... etc... We have a rec league night where all the kids get to get in the game free and the wear their jerseys and at half time they to walk out on the field and get their named called.
We have the coaches for the rec teams come and, it is mandatory to coach, they go through a clinic with the high school coaches. We teach them how to warm up, how to organize pratice, how to tackle, how to line up, etc...... Needless to say it has been very good for us.
cmow, I disagree, having the rec leagues run what we do it important, because it gets the kids understanding what we do (we are a pass happy team) and it get the coaches trying to throw the ball. Most kids at a young age can catch, but usually it is standing still. We emphasize catching on the run. I have seen too many teams just take the best athlete and let him touch the ball every play. We preach spreading the ball around.
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Post by Coach Klemme on Jun 27, 2008 19:30:11 GMT -6
We have 2 middle schools feed into our high school as well. We also get several kids from a rec league that is heavily recruited by the private schools (7) we compete with. I feel the coaches try to keep it close, but they find a niche of what has worked for them and tend to get off the same page as us. The rec team has nothing to do with us at all.
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Post by cmow5 on Jun 27, 2008 20:18:47 GMT -6
OK I dont want to hijack this thread and this might be the first time I have voiced my opinion that has been different, but here it goes. Yes in a pass happy offense not the best to run the same. But I feel if the kids are hearing the same key words,phrases, coaching points for 4,5,6 years before they even get to high school that is beneficial........right? Thats why we rep stuff over and over again so it is second nature and it takes the guessing out. I heard some one say"repetition is the mother of all learning". Now I say all coaches get on the same page and say OK at this level you guys can do this and then when they get here add this and so on. Also, I have heard on here and various other places that wins and loses dont matter at these levels(Being at the middle school level last year I under stand this, but try explaining that to parents) now if W-L does not matter why wouldn't you get the whole coaching staff on the same page through out the levels. we all have different coaching points and words we use as far as targets as stuff like that so why not have every one use the same coaching points. I am not saying run everything the same, but make sure your base plays are in place at every level even if its a pass and the pop warner level. the kids would love to pass at the level. I just seeing putting kids through 4 different offenses with different reads,keys words,coaching points can not be the best way in my opinion. Once again I am not even trying to disagree with you guys(I hate convertation) but I just wanted to give my opinion. Maybe it is the tall boy sitting on my desk talking. ;D
Please let me know where I might be mistaken. and if we are hijacking this thread then shoot me a PM. Thanks guys
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Jun 27, 2008 20:38:06 GMT -6
Our school district has two high schools, each with a feeder middle school. I coach the 7th grade team. We run the varsity offense (Wing-T), and I make a great effort to do what the varsity does. I've read a ton and been to clinics, and I can tell you that our program is not a carbon copy of the Delaware system. For example, our wingbacks are cocked at a 45 degree angle, but the Delaware guys face straight ahead. My point is that we try to prepare players for their varsity years. I work very closely with the varsity HC, and I'm sure he is pleased. Our youth teams do not run the Wing-T, so my coaches and I set the foundation. Well, at least that is how I tell the story.
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 27, 2008 20:39:34 GMT -6
cmow, we are lucky in that we don't have to compete with neighboring schools or any private schootls. Yes winning is a big deal for the kids and their parents. As a coach, we want to get those reps at any age. I have coached at various levels and I have always thought that if we can do it at the lower levels just like the varsity, then that will trump wins and loses.
Since we throw the ball so much, it is important to us. But it is also very important that we teach OL play too. I see too many kids miss out on this and we struggle gettin those kids to stay with us.
Defensively, we take the hammer out of that part by setting up the rec leagues for offense... not blitzing and the same front every play.
We just want some cohesiveness from our programs.
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Post by carookie on Jun 27, 2008 22:11:59 GMT -6
CMOW, I dont think you are pirating the post, and I get where you are coming from with the vertical teaming of getting the younger ages on the same page as the varsity.
I will say this though, I don't buy the W's don't matter thing. I get the point of the statement, in that you are more interested in teaching technique to all, spreading the playing time to improve all players. BUT, I also feel that winning can be a culture, and winning is something that can be taught.
Talk about something you want your boys to have by the time they get to varsity, how about a winning attitude, and an expectation to succeed
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Post by tog on Jun 27, 2008 22:33:01 GMT -6
it is about 90% here in Texas the ones that do not well they generally suck
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MaineManiac
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Post by MaineManiac on Jun 28, 2008 6:45:19 GMT -6
We have just one middle school. We don't work against each other, but we also aren't explicitly linked to one another. They run a different offense and defense. To us, it is more important that kids are playing football, learning sound fundamentals, and most importantly - having fun. They will only want to play HS football if the MS experience was worthwhile.
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Post by utchuckd on Jun 28, 2008 8:02:35 GMT -6
I'm beginning to think running the same thing is a bit over rated as a means of teaching the kids football and your system. I mean when the get to the high school they are still going to have a year of freshman ball and a year of jv to learn your system aren't they?
However, I think running the same system could be an indication of the relationship between the MS and HS. If everybody is on the same page working towards the same goal it would probably show by both programs running the same stuff. At least in terminology and base philosophy. Kind of like the chapter in Freakonomics that said children with certain names are more successful than kids with other names, not because their name made any difference, but because it was an indication of what their parents and home life was like.
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trojan
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Post by trojan on Jun 28, 2008 11:53:50 GMT -6
We have been blessed with three paid coaches for our 7th grade team and three for our 8th grade team. Additionally, we often have at least three volunteers total. Our kids get as much individual instruction on fundamentals as can be hoped for. Having said that, winning is a significant priority for us. Like us, our sister school (same school district) runs a Wing-T, just like their varsity. Once their varsity consistently began losing, that trickled down through their ranks. I will say this though, I don't buy the W's don't matter thing. I get the point of the statement, in that you are more interested in teaching technique to all, spreading the playing time to improve all players. BUT, I also feel that winning can be a culture, and winning is something that can be taught. Talk about something you want your boys to have by the time they get to varsity, how about a winning attitude, and an expectation to succeed Winning can be a culture, and losing sure as he11 can become one as well.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 29, 2008 8:09:05 GMT -6
dcohio---Then I guess all of the coaches who do not have "linked" programs must be tremendously better coaches than that staff correct? (tongue in cheek statement)
Just trying to point out that your anecdote doesn't really provide much conclusive empirical data to support belief, since many schools have this consistent success without meshing systems.
I have seen your teaching progression...It is very solid, and we both know it is MORE than adequate to teach up a completely green frosh...
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Post by justryn2 on Jun 29, 2008 8:47:47 GMT -6
IMO, if the middle school is feeding into a single high school, it makes tremendous sense to run the same thing top to bottom. Players learn the same terminology, same techniques, same reads, etc. That has to be a benefit as they reach the varsity level; it just makes practice time and in-game adjustments so much more efficient.
However, people are people and coaches are going to coach what they think gives their team the best chance to succeed. So, I really think it is incumbent upon the high school head coach to "sell" his program to the middle school. It can pay benefits for everyone but its not so easy to get there.
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 20:04:32 GMT -6
dcohio---Then I guess all of the coaches who do not have "linked" programs must be tremendously better coaches than that staff correct? (tongue in cheek statement) Just trying to point out that your anecdote doesn't really provide much conclusive empirical data to support belief, since many schools have this consistent success without meshing systems. I have seen your teaching progression...It is very solid, and we both know it is MORE than adequate to teach up a completely green frosh... it's not just a matter of teaching the base offense if you have a solid system all the way up from youth to middle school to the high school the kids have a bazillion reps in the base and it allows you to run the base and a LOT LOT more.
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Post by airraider on Jun 29, 2008 20:27:16 GMT -6
Our feeder school's basketball coach is shopping our players around to other schools.. how is that for a kick in the nutts?
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 20:28:17 GMT -6
Our feeder school's basketball coach is shopping our players around to other schools.. how is that for a kick in the nutts? maybe that is what you should do to him
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Post by coachhortman on Jun 29, 2008 20:31:18 GMT -6
As CoachD5085 pointed out already, we run the same system at Evangel from the second grade though the varsity. It helps a lot when I get kids in the seventh grade that know the passing tree, know how to pass block, qb knows the basic reads etc. Our coaches can start using indo periods to teach the different positions such as QB how to take a drop, look at the coverages, when to release the ball and so forth. We can start showing them film from the games to show mistakes etc. I believe it is huge for the feeder systems to run the same offense and defense for it has helped us greatly though the years. For instance, John David Booty and Jacob Hester whom both got drafted in the NFL draft, I will always believe they were allowed ot excel at jr high and high school level because the terminology never changed, offense and defense never changed just got more complex. For example a 2 route for the high school is 10 yards, a 2 route at the jr high level was the same but at the sixth grade level it was 5 yards. Everything was the same except for the distance of the route. On the other hand, I have seen excellent programs that their jr high programs are different from the high school programs yet the high school program win on a consistent basis. It goes back to how good the coaching staff is with their players.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jun 30, 2008 15:30:02 GMT -6
Ohio, you never get first year players out to your program?! I teach tackling from the ground up every year. every year we start over.
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Post by coachpoe on Jun 30, 2008 17:50:37 GMT -6
since our school is 7-12, we obviously start installing our system at the middle school level. It is nice having the kids zone blocking from the age of 12, but as others have said I think it is far more important that we have players who block tackle and hustle by the time they are in the 9th grade
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Post by coachwoodall on Jun 30, 2008 20:43:38 GMT -6
I had this thought this morning, as coaches we want to be able to get quality reps during practice. I have seen a couple of threads discussing the quality of reps verses the quantity of reps. When the lower levels runs the basics of your offense and defense, you get the best of both worlds.
When we get kids on the varsity level, they already have a knowledge of how to line up in formations, what the route combos are, the blocking schemes, defensive stunts, coverages, etc.... Now we can get a get a lot of high quality reps during our practice time. We don't spend a lot of time standing around showing a kids where to line up. This kills practice tempo when the whole staff and 80 kids are waiting for 2-3 kids to learn what they are supposed to do.
This also allows our staff to tweak what we are running. Since the kids already know the offense, what teaching time we do have is spent tagging routes, trick plays, and special defensive looks.
Our teaching 'motto' is "coach them on the run". You can't do that if your have to stop everything to tell the OG what foot to step with.
Of course all this being said, you have to have a good relationship with the middle schools and the rec leagues. We are lucky in that we have some coaches in the middle schools who have coached at the varsity level and parents who volunteer in the rec leagues who just want to be a part of the 'Rebel Empire'. The coaching staff bends over backwards to help these folks out so that they can understand what we do and what we expect. We have a great speed and strength coach that starts working with the kids in the 7th grede.
Part of the succes we have with the lower levels is the succes we have had. However, the biggest reason that we have the support of the community and everyone involved is that we emphasize the off the field aspects of football as much as the on field aspects. We ask a lot of the kids involved in the program, but we give a lot too. We not only supply the physical and mental training, but we also wholeheartedly invest in the social and spiritual tools kids need.
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Post by davecisar on Jul 1, 2008 5:23:15 GMT -6
If the MS is a direct feeder to the HS, makes sense to get on the same page where it makes sense. According to the original post, the HS has been amysmal for a very long time.
Had the MS coach been interviewed to get some background before coach went in and told him what to do,he might possibly had found something like this: HS in last 23 years has had 10 different coaches with 10 different systems The HS record during those 23 years was 40-219 The first 7 coaches had me run their stuff, with nothing more than a playbook and a good luck wish During those first 7 coaches rein my teams record was 14-56 and I was losing 40% of my kids every season and suffered from very low numbers When I got the playbook from the 8th coach, I decided to run my own stuff. Since then the teams record has been 90-3 and I rarely have enough equipment for all the kids that want to play for the team. Sometimes you just dont know all the circumstances until you ask.
Then you formulate a plan and approach to sell the MS coach on why it helps him, his players and you to get on the same page using some of his own words and addressing the problems he had with the 10 coaches that preceeded the present coach.
JMHO on how to work with people.
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Post by phantom on Jul 1, 2008 5:56:09 GMT -6
I've read a lot on here about HS coaches having MS coaches run the same stuff; or the MS coach answering to the HS coach. I was just wondering in how many instances is this the case? I know in every school district I've been involved in each HS had at least 3-4 feeder MS. Moreover, any football played directly through the MS was flag; if you wanted tackle you played Pop Warner ball. Is the opening situation more common that I know? Is it something that only takes place in smaller towns? It seems kinda foreign to me. Very simple for us- we don't have middle school football. We have four HSs in town and youth leagues do not feed directly into any HS. I don't expect somebody else to do my job for me. The first day of practice during fundamentals period we do the same thing- we teach stance. It'll be the same this year. We have three and a half starters back on the OL-two of them all-state players- but we'll start by teaching stance. We just believe in basics. We have great JV coaches. I trust them and know they do a good job. We start at the beginning every year, though, because we believe that you win with fundamentals.
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Post by davecisar on Jul 1, 2008 6:18:47 GMT -6
I've read a lot on here about HS coaches having MS coaches run the same stuff; or the MS coach answering to the HS coach. I was just wondering in how many instances is this the case? I know in every school district I've been involved in each HS had at least 3-4 feeder MS. Moreover, any football played directly through the MS was flag; if you wanted tackle you played Pop Warner ball. Is the opening situation more common that I know? Is it something that only takes place in smaller towns? It seems kinda foreign to me. Very simple for us- we don't have middle school football. We have four HSs in town and youth leagues do not feed directly into any HS. I don't expect somebody else to do my job for me. The first day of practice during fundamentals period we do the same thing- we teach stance. It'll be the same this year. We have three and a half starters back on the OL-two of them all-state players- but we'll start by teaching stance. We just believe in basics. We have great JV coaches. I trust them and know they do a good job. We start at the beginning every year, though, because we believe that you win with fundamentals. The first day of practice every season, the legendary John Wooden would teach all his players how to tie their shoes.
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Post by coachorr on Jul 1, 2008 7:03:51 GMT -6
I feel like I just turned to channel 212 on the DISH (CSPAN live coverage of the Senate). Where all of the discussion has a complete absence of common sense. Feeder programs who emulate to some degree what the HS does, helps the HS and allows for better opportunity for success for individual players. If there needs to be some other type of "empirical" evidence to prove common sense theory, then I can't help.
Is there one coach on here who would honestly say that they do not want the younger grades to learn what they do, albeit; tackling, stance, formations, alignment/assignment etc?
I think we would all want that type of situation in a perfect world.
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 1, 2008 8:08:09 GMT -6
I've read a lot on here about HS coaches having MS coaches run the same stuff; or the MS coach answering to the HS coach. I was just wondering in how many instances is this the case? I know in every school district I've been involved in each HS had at least 3-4 feeder MS. Moreover, any football played directly through the MS was flag; if you wanted tackle you played Pop Warner ball. Is the opening situation more common that I know? Is it something that only takes place in smaller towns? It seems kinda foreign to me. Very simple for us- we don't have middle school football. We have four HSs in town and youth leagues do not feed directly into any HS. I don't expect somebody else to do my job for me. The first day of practice during fundamentals period we do the same thing- we teach stance. It'll be the same this year. We have three and a half starters back on the OL-two of them all-state players- but we'll start by teaching stance. We just believe in basics. We have great JV coaches. I trust them and know they do a good job. We start at the beginning every year, though, because we believe that you win with fundamentals. It's not about expecting anyone to do YOUR JOB it's about a true fact. The more you do the same thing, the easier it becomes to you. I agree 90% of the people in Georgia who win State Championships have feeder programs that run their system are there our factors yes. But educational research should tell you if 9 out of 10 have the same type of work enivronment and they all get the desired result then the method is part of the reason.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Jul 1, 2008 8:34:07 GMT -6
...even if the system and coaching at the top are terrible?
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Post by coachdawhip on Jul 1, 2008 8:37:44 GMT -6
Yes, because smart kids can make up for bad teaching when they are taught correctly.
My 1st year as a teacher my 95% Adv.Geometry kids passed the End of Course Test and 83% of general ones. I taught that subject horribly wrong and now as a veteran teacher, I know how to teach it in my sleep. However, my kids had a solid foundation that not even there stupid teacher could screw up.
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