|
|
Post by davecisar on Jun 23, 2008 8:16:55 GMT -6
|
|
dcoach84
Sophomore Member
If what you did yesterday seems big, you haven't done anything today. -Lou Holtz
Posts: 129
|
Post by dcoach84 on Jun 23, 2008 9:32:13 GMT -6
Great story!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by sweep26 on Jun 23, 2008 10:11:51 GMT -6
You have to love those experienced coaches that just know how to win!!
Great story!!
|
|
|
|
Post by ccscoach on Jun 23, 2008 14:27:36 GMT -6
didn't ESPN do have a program that Featured West Monroe High school very similar to MTV's 2 a days
|
|
|
|
Post by wildcat on Jun 23, 2008 18:47:47 GMT -6
Awesome story...sometimes, you have to shoot some hostages!
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 23, 2008 19:03:48 GMT -6
Dave--lol..I know you probably don't want to hear "the rest" of the story on this one either do you..LOL.
Actually though, WM's entire community supports their sports..ALL sports. They make deep runs in basketball, have a state baseball title or two, some powerlifiting titles, softball titles..a very well rounded program. Coach Shows is an excellent example of having a vision, working the vision, and not letting anyone else deter you from the vision. ALSO, the key element to the story, his standing up to the community at first, was a well known factor in helping him turn the program around.
All of that said, it IS of some importance to recognize that their state championship runs listed (as well as their additional title in 2005--Katrina and Rita years so the entire southern part of the state was suspect that year) were all during the 8+ period. 8+ was an ACTUAL GRADE in the school district, in which athletes who could be "redshirted" and still not turn 19 prior to Sept 1 of their Senior year attended. This is not speculation, not rumor. It was the accepted practice. The community embraced this practice, and I was actually told by a parent of an athlete "The rest of the state is stupid, they should do it too. "
(When I mentioned to her that if this was the case, the state would be suffering serious funding shortage, as essentially each child would be getting 9 years of grammar school...she didn't seem to care.)
The LHSAA enacted rules to prevent such things several years ago, but obviously that takes a full 5 year cycle to run its course. Since playing without the 8+program, WM has been eliminated in the second round of the playoffs each year, and has not won a state title in any sport.
Just giving a complete picture of a MAJOR part of the turnaround.
|
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jun 23, 2008 20:25:27 GMT -6
For 40 year the team sucked, in the last 18 yeaars since he got there they have done great and it's all this and Katrina? OK
Amazing 40 years nothing, his 18 years lots of wins and state titles etc. Must be doing something right.
|
|
|
|
Post by airraider on Jun 23, 2008 20:59:11 GMT -6
For 40 year the team sucked, in the last 18 yeaars since he got there they have done great and it's all this and Katrina? OK Amazing 40 years nothing, his 18 years lots of wins and state titles etc. Must be doing something right. Yea, its called getting around the rules by means of loop holes.. they purposely held back these kids and made them 8.5 kids instead of 9th grade kids.. Thus giving them an extra year at the end of their age spectrum.. I would like to know what year this went into effect in reference to what year he started.. but you can bet.. they are pretty close. |
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 23, 2008 21:31:26 GMT -6
For 40 year the team sucked, in the last 18 yeaars since he got there they have done great and it's all this and Katrina? OK Amazing 40 years nothing, his 18 years lots of wins and state titles etc. Must be doing something right. Dave--Katrina...had nothing to do with it (I just threw that in because of the 05 title) Coach shows..EXCELLENT coach. Extremely organized, put together a great program. Hired an excellent staff, implemented a top notch weightlifting program with a national coach of the year. Fundraises like a BCS coach. 8000+ season tickets sell out a day or so after being offered. Tremendous community support. The article put it quite nicely...Shows was much like a wildcatter...he had a vision, and it is obviously being revealed. HOWEVER, as I said, I do think it is important to note that it is quite probable that implementing a district wide holdback program (they are the only High School in the District...) helped with the program development. The degree it helped is not quantifiable, but it can't hurt when your seniors are 18 with some 19 year olds, and most other schools are 17 with some 18 year olds. None of that support, fundraising, massive season ticket sales, etc was there before the wins, and the wins and strong program didn't come until 8+. They were within the LHSAA rules at the time. Now, the ethics behind that type of set up... My big beef with it was that, as a taxpayer, I am funding 9 years of grammar school..not 8...simply for athletic success. Ironically, the school that knocked WM off the perch as the big dog of the big dogs was another school that implemented an 8+ program.... |
|
bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
|
Post by bhb on Jun 26, 2008 10:46:18 GMT -6
I think that information is very relevant as well.. Like you said, it's not quantifiable, but it certainly seems like a competitive advantage.. That much is pretty clear..
This isn't a knock on Coach Shows- we've all seen teams with talent lose.. Happens every year- so just because he had the best talent doesn't mean he didn't have to coach his butt off to build the best team.. Any state Championship run requires some outstanding Coaching along the way- those things are just too tough to win on talent alone anymore..
For the record, I don't think anyone was saying Coaching wasn't a major part of this- just presenting all of the facts surrounding the program.. I find the 8+ program information both interesting and disturbing at the same time..
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 26, 2008 11:29:22 GMT -6
bhb--
Very accurate assessment. Shows has certainly built a program. And I can certainly see Davecisar (and other's) frustrations when they see other successful programs constantly being hit with accusations of impropriety. It does seem to be a common theme....the public likes to claim that anyone with extraordinary success must be doing something underhanded.
Unfortunately, I know FIRST HAND many of the things that happen down here in LA. Over the last 15 years, our state has witnessed a divide between a few select "haves" and the rest of the state. These schools most certainly have become "haves" because of outstanding work ethic, community/school support, organization, efficiency, a little luck,...and talent. HOWEVER, these schools are also marred with accusations of things that are questionable from a rules or ethics standpoint...and I know first hand that some of those accusations are true.
I think what many people fail to realize is the importance of PROGRAM strength...and thus, how these "questionable actions" can get the avalanche rolling. WM for example, enjoyed a the talents of a player who had played his frosh-jr years at another H.S. Not only that, BUT after winning the state title his Sr. Year, the player went BACK to run track at the previous high school. He then went to an SEC school, and the NFL. That is a nice pick up.
Another school, that was a "have" before Hurricane Katrina (they actually have beaten John Curtis 3 times in the state championships (2 title games, and once in a quarter or semi final game). However, this public school has never beaten John Curtis WITHOUT players who started their careers at other high schools in the area....
The private "haves"...well, i think they are accused of the same thing that most of the other major private schools across the country are accused of. While it is probably not as widespread as many detractors say, I think we all know there are some truths to those things...
|
|
bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
|
Post by bhb on Jun 26, 2008 12:17:14 GMT -6
there's no doubt that there's some shady business going on through the back door.. It's a shame that the pressure to win has trickled so far down that even the HS game has lost much of it's purity.. Say what you want, but I belive HS sports was absolutely pure when I was a player.. Sure, we had Coaches who liked to run up the score- but when we faced a team like that we never wondered if their players were being imported from other areas, or taking roids.. We knew most of the kids from the youth sports days and they always played where they were supposed to- and they were usually better than us as youths.. It only made sense that they would grow up and whip us in HS to- they'd been doing it for so long, why stop now?...lol..
Are the stories of corruption at the HS level the result of pressure to win from the community, the school board, the booster club etc., etc- or are they the result of a few bad coaches here and there that are so desperate for the status they perceive comes with winning that they're willing to bend the rules as far as possible-and often break them?..
By the way, I'm in no way saying Shows is one of those rotten apples..but I'd be lying if I said I didn't find the 8+ stuff intriguing..
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 26, 2008 13:56:53 GMT -6
The 8+ stuff..intriguing is an "interesting" way to put it LOL.
Not sure about other regions, but individually being held back for sports kind of took off within the last 15-25 years here. Some schools simply institutionalized it...
|
|
bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
|
Post by bhb on Jun 26, 2008 14:08:07 GMT -6
LOL.. Yeah, I hear ya, but I'm not as close to the situation as you are- so I don't want to judge-at least not publicly if possible..
Holding kids back for sports has NEVER been a policy here in NJ- though I would imagine that if this type of practice was common its proponents would argue that it allows the kids a chance to "mature".. LOL.. I'll bet you heard the term "mature" a lot during this period?
|
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jun 26, 2008 14:14:41 GMT -6
The 8+ stuff..intriguing is an "interesting" way to put it LOL. Not sure about other regions, but individually being held back for sports kind of took off within the last 15-25 years here. Some schools simply institutionalized it... So if they are all doing it, ( no that is is right ) doesnt that create a level playing field? |
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jun 26, 2008 14:52:30 GMT -6
I can't imagine folks purposely holding kids back in the 8th grade simply for athletics.
Doesn't your state have standards like an Educational Assessment Program that would prevent this from taking place? Especially in the 8th grade?
What would happen if a child accidently missed a few too many days of school prior to the school year ending in that 8th grade year?
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 26, 2008 14:56:38 GMT -6
Dave--they aren't "all" doing it. As I said, some individual parents started to do it from time to time. As more did it, it became a bit more popular. Not widespread by any means, but popular enough that it was receiving some notice. However, only a select few private schools, and only 1 public school (WM) institutionalized the practice. That's why i said there has been a divide between the haves...and have nots.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 26, 2008 15:00:43 GMT -6
I can't imagine folks purposely holding kids back in the 8th grade simply for athletics. Doesn't your state have standards like an Educational Assessment Program that would prevent this from taking place? Especially in the 8th grade? What would happen if a child accidently missed a few too many days of school prior to the school year ending in that 8th grade year? Brophy..not sure if you are setting me up here or not..LOL..since you know what state I am in. Then again, you aren't in the education field, so you might not know. It happens. It happens more than some would think in some cases. However, the LHSAA passed a rule to "prevent" it from happening. With all rules however, there are ways around it, and you just touched on one. A student could maintain a stellar academic record, yet miss to many school days, AND then "legally" be held back and yet still eligible for all 4 years of their high school career. |
|
