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Post by Tooch43 on Jun 14, 2008 10:38:54 GMT -6
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 14, 2008 14:34:05 GMT -6
I don't really see the need to pay $300 for a piece of equipment that can do the same job as a $3.00 stop watch. I must qualify that remark by saying I don't see the need for using a $3.00 stop watch either....
If I were a just a strength coach, and if improvement in measurables such as 10yd take off, 40yrd dash, pro agility etc.. was how I was evaluated, then I might find some use in a product such as this.
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Post by Yash on Jun 14, 2008 14:40:28 GMT -6
I could think of a lot of better things to spend 300 bucks on for a football program than a timing system. I think I'd get some footballs or jerseys or some agilies that would make my guys faster rather than something to time how slow they are.
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Post by Tooch43 on Jun 15, 2008 9:39:36 GMT -6
I'm not asking if I should buy it. I'm asking if you have it and if you are satisfied. For some programs $300 is nothing; for others it's alot. We happen to have some extra funds and I'd love to be able to be more consistant with things like this.
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Post by coachplaa on Jun 15, 2008 11:37:27 GMT -6
We have one and we use it. I like it because it takes the human error out of our timings. The kids have confidence in it, and its a valuable tool for us.
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Post by silkyice on Jun 20, 2008 23:27:00 GMT -6
We have one and we use it. I like it because it takes the human error out of our timings. The kids have confidence in it, and its a valuable tool for us. Does it start on movement, whistle, button, or something else? Can it time two kids at the same time? For instance, if they were racing? (My guess is no). Is it easy to set up? |
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Post by ttowntiger on Jun 21, 2008 15:40:48 GMT -6
Although I don't have one, I think it would be a real good investment. I think you need to get electronic times if possible to insure that your times are consistent and valid. As for saying "it doesn't matter, they're slow anyway", I completely disagree. The thing we should strive for is improvement. If that 5.2 kid can get his time down to 5.0, he still may not be very fast, but he will be a better athlete and probably a better player. Without a consistent, reliable method of evaluation, there is no way to tell if you're making progress or not.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 21, 2008 16:14:37 GMT -6
Although I don't have one, I think it would be a real good investment. I think you need to get electronic times if possible to insure that your times are consistent and valid. As for saying "it doesn't matter, they're slow anyway", I completely disagree. The thing we should strive for is improvement. If that 5.2 kid can get his time down to 5.0, he still may not be very fast, but he will be a better athlete and probably a better player. Without a consistent, reliable method of evaluation, there is no way to tell if you're making progress or not. Does extremely accurate (electronic timing) over relatively accurate timing (hand timing) change ANYTHING about WHAT you do though? Does having an electronic timer telling you that a kid dropped from 5.2 to a 5.0 differ than having a hand timed clock say the kid was a 5.1? or a 4.9? Does the discrepancy in that data affect the program at all? |
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Post by ttowntiger on Jun 21, 2008 16:32:40 GMT -6
Although I don't have one, I think it would be a real good investment. I think you need to get electronic times if possible to insure that your times are consistent and valid. As for saying "it doesn't matter, they're slow anyway", I completely disagree. The thing we should strive for is improvement. If that 5.2 kid can get his time down to 5.0, he still may not be very fast, but he will be a better athlete and probably a better player. Without a consistent, reliable method of evaluation, there is no way to tell if you're making progress or not. Does extremely accurate (electronic timing) over relatively accurate timing (hand timing) change ANYTHING about WHAT you do though? Does having an electronic timer telling you that a kid dropped from 5.2 to a 5.0 differ than having a hand timed clock say the kid was a 5.1? or a 4.9? Does the discrepancy in that data affect the program at all? It's all about consistency. Hand held times can have a lot of variables such as the person timing's reaction time. Sometimes, it's also difficult to tell EXACTLY at what point the player's body crosses the finish line. This can scew the results. I've also sen 3 or 4 people time the same person at the same time and each one get a different time, sometimes varying by as much as .2 seconds. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 21, 2008 16:46:17 GMT -6
ttown--my point being...does ANY of that affect what YOU or the kids do in terms of FOOTBALL? Does this consistency change ANYthing that you would do as a FOOTBALL COACH? Do the kids run more or less now due to this consistency? Do you change your conditioning program?
Again, I ask, does having an "accurate" or consistent timing mechanism change ANYTHING that you are doing to strive for improvement? How does using an electronic timer to give you an "accurate" 5.0 instead of using a hand held timer which might give you a 4.9 or 4.95 or even a 5.1 or heck maybe a 5.3 impact your team?
Now, if I were a strength/conditioning guy, and those were the measurables my work was being evaluated on, I would certainly agree with you. Reliable and valid data would be crucial. But as a football guy, the numerical change of those measurables are not my concern.
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Post by ttowntiger on Jun 22, 2008 13:49:48 GMT -6
ttown--my point being...does ANY of that affect what YOU or the kids do in terms of FOOTBALL? Does this consistency change ANYthing that you would do as a FOOTBALL COACH? Do the kids run more or less now due to this consistency? Do you change your conditioning program? Again, I ask, does having an "accurate" or consistent timing mechanism change ANYTHING that you are doing to strive for improvement? How does using an electronic timer to give you an "accurate" 5.0 instead of using a hand held timer which might give you a 4.9 or 4.95 or even a 5.1 or heck maybe a 5.3 impact your team? Now, if I were a strength/conditioning guy, and those were the measurables my work was being evaluated on, I would certainly agree with you. Reliable and valid data would be crucial. But as a football guy, the numerical change of those measurables are not my concern. How then can you tell if your kids are improving or not? Like I said, it's about improvement more than the times in and of themselves. In my opinion, getting your players to improve athletically is a HUGE part of being a good football coach. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 22, 2008 14:24:11 GMT -6
Ttown--the fact that the timing system is more accurate/more consistent than hand timing has NOTHING to do with the improvement. Being able to "tell if your kids are improving or not" is absolutely irrelevant UNLESS those kids are at such plateaus or your s&c is at such a sophisticated level that you are going to change it for those specific results. Otherwise, it is all about THE EFFORT TO IMPROVE, not the Measurement of Improvement.
It simply is a measurement tool, not a production tool.
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Post by silkyice on Jun 22, 2008 15:09:44 GMT -6
Ttown--the fact that the timing system is more accurate/more consistent than hand timing has NOTHING to do with the improvement. Being able to "tell if your kids are improving or not" is absolutely irrelevant UNLESS those kids are at such plateaus or your s&c is at such a sophisticated level that you are going to change it for those specific results. Otherwise, it is all about THE EFFORT TO IMPROVE, not the Measurement of Improvement. It simply is a measurement tool, not a production tool. While I understand what you are saying, then why ever time anyone in your program??? I want my timing to be the most accurate I can have. There will be mistakes made with watches. We personally time every kid in our program in three 40's and three 20's every week. I know that I am pretty accurate, but I also know I make plenty of mistakes. I have found that timing them makes them more competitive. It also helps them believe in what we are doing. They see the results. The more they believe, the better effort. The better the effort, the more they improve. The difference between timing your athletes and not is make or break in my book. The difference between timing your athletes with a stopwatch and timing system is small. The question is $300 small to your program or not. If I have an extra $300, then I will use it on the timing system. If not, then watches will be just fine. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 22, 2008 15:23:19 GMT -6
Ttown--the fact that the timing system is more accurate/more consistent than hand timing has NOTHING to do with the improvement. Being able to "tell if your kids are improving or not" is absolutely irrelevant UNLESS those kids are at such plateaus or your s&c is at such a sophisticated level that you are going to change it for those specific results. Otherwise, it is all about THE EFFORT TO IMPROVE, not the Measurement of Improvement. It simply is a measurement tool, not a production tool. While I understand what you are saying, then why ever time anyone in your program??? I don't I work extremely hard to teach my kids how to compete within themselves, and eliminate all external factors other than themselves, and their opponent (Stats, scores, etc. ) This is a valid consideration. |
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Post by silkyice on Jun 22, 2008 15:36:29 GMT -6
coachd5085,
My hat is off to you in getting your kids to compete whithin themselves.
I am really not trying to be argumentitive here, but how do you compete against yourself with no results?
I run a 20 yard dash as fast as I can. Then I run another one. If I don't know my time or have anything to compare against, then how is that competiting?
It might still be improving and maybe even maximum effort or maximum improvement (which really what we are after), but it doesn't really seem like "competing."
Again, I am not trying to be a arguementitive, but I wish you would try something.
Time your kids without them knowing somehow. (Another coach or watch in the pocket). Then time them knowing you are timing them. Then time them with them trying to beat their times. Assuming they are rested before all the runs, I bet they run faster knowing they are being timed.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 22, 2008 15:52:52 GMT -6
Coach--Do you bring out your stopwatch to movtivate backside corner to make the touchdown saving tackle?
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Post by ttowntiger on Jun 22, 2008 16:46:28 GMT -6
To me, one of the key aspects of setting goals is "it must be measurable". While stopwatches can do this, why not get the best equipment available, if you can afford it? Also, when you have players that can play at the next level (even at the D3 level, doesn't have to be D1), almost all coaches will want to know what the prospect's 40 time is. By giving the college coach a legit time, you develop credibility. Face it, many of the "hand held" times HS coaches turn in to the colleges are bogus. And when you turn in illegitimate times, you hurt your own credibilty, IMO.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 22, 2008 18:03:29 GMT -6
Coach--Do you bring out your stopwatch to motivate backside corner to make the touchdown saving tackle? And I didn't mean that in an argumentative or completely smart a$$ way. I was talking more along the lines of the "innovative" changes in practice/program management. As I said, those are all S&C concerns, and if I were SOLELY being judged on being an s&c guy, I would be VERY big on measuring improvement. Not because it benefits the KIDS, but because it justifies my existence. Not the case as a football guy. As a football guy, My job is to get the kids to realize that ONLY ONE thing matters. Win the next play by doing my job. A singular mindset. Why are we speed training? "So I can do my job better and win the next play" Why are we cleaning? "So I can do my job better and win the next play" Do I get a helmet sticker? "Nope, it has nothing to with winning the next play" Do I run a 5.1 or a 5.0? "Who cares, win the next play!" Intrinsic motivation, because when it is 4th and 3 for the state championship, nobody cares what your 40 time is, nobody cares about your helmet stickers, nobody cares about what they squat, or where their name sits on some pride board. |
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Post by silkyice on Jun 22, 2008 19:36:53 GMT -6
Coach--Do you bring out your stopwatch to motivate backside corner to make the touchdown saving tackle? And I didn't mean that in an argumentative or completely smart a$$ way. I was talking more along the lines of the "innovative" changes in practice/program management. As I said, those are all S&C concerns, and if I were SOLELY being judged on being an s&c guy, I would be VERY big on measuring improvement. Not because it benefits the KIDS, but because it justifies my existence. Not the case as a football guy. As a football guy, My job is to get the kids to realize that ONLY ONE thing matters. Win the next play by doing my job. A singular mindset. Why are we speed training? "So I can do my job better and win the next play" Why are we cleaning? "So I can do my job better and win the next play" Do I get a helmet sticker? "Nope, it has nothing to with winning the next play" Do I run a 5.1 or a 5.0? "Who cares, win the next play!" Intrinsic motivation, because when it is 4th and 3 for the state championship, nobody cares what your 40 time is, nobody cares about your helmet stickers, nobody cares about what they squat, or where their name sits on some pride board. Coach, I just about completely agree with you. The whole reason to sprint train, workout, practice, whatever is to win the next play. No questions there. I am willing to bet that you would agree that if you can make a player faster, then that will help him win the next play. But where I differ on winning the next play is that it does matter if you run a 5.1 or 5.0. I will not play anyone based on a time. My best DB will play DB no matter his speed. But if your starting DB runs a 5.1 and you can get him to run a 5.0, then you have a better chance at winning the next play. I believe that measurables are the best way to train, because when you measure something you can now improve on it. In other words - win the next play, win the next sprint, beat your best time. To me - it is all one in the same. Competition!! I think where we differ is not that you don't think it matters if you make a guy faster, you just don't think timing him makes him faster. If I just time him once, agreed. If I time him all year (6 times per week), and everytime he sprints his goal is to beat his best time (win the next play), then I think timing does make a difference. |
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