|
|
Post by airman on Jun 13, 2008 15:21:28 GMT -6
So I am sitting in a bar in wisconsin having a beverage and in comes these 20 some things. Life is going good watching baseball
So the kids get to talkign sports with me and several other guys and it gets around to the Green Bay Packers offense.
These twenty some things start telling me how the cover 2 defense is bad vs the green bay packers offense. How the 4 wr can destroy the cover 2 defense and that no team runs the cover 2 vs the packers.
Well I thought that was rather odd since I remember the packers talking about how every one was going to cover 2 vs them to defend the run and force them to run. I also remember the colts saying the same thing with their one back vs cover 2 with regard the the passing game.
So we get to the diagrams. I could tell they watched too much espn or nfl network cause they were drawing up the tampa cover 2 defense as their example of cover 2.
now it is clearly been documented that I am no defensive guru but I do understand defenses becasue you have to in order to throw the ball against them.
so I with my diagrams and show the various type of cover 2 with man and zone under. which they had no clue what I was talking about. seeing how they all just watch the packers they really do not study other teams offenses and defenses. Then I got to how you can make cover 2 actually look like cover 3 and vice versa, how you can roll your coverage from cover 2. what I tried to get them to grasp is that in the nfl they mix and match coverages and do not just line up in cover 2 or cover 1 very often allowing the qb to read the defense. heck great high school change things up.
then I said cover 2 with forcing the defense to cover all 4 wr with two over the top is actually a great way to gash a team with your run game. They did not believe me how the offense has numbers.
then we got on to the packers defense and how they play bump and run cover two. In reality the packers play a ton of quarters coverage with bump and run man coverage on the outside allowing the safeties to come up and play the run.
once again they did not believe me. so I went and got my lap top with game footage of the packers on it and there response was well they did nto show that on the nfl network. I said, oh by the way I am a football coach.
in the end they still believe the guys in the nfl network. I was wondering if a fan has ever came up to you and started talking football, telling you how things are done cause the watched the nfl network or football 101 on espn and they think they have it all down. It really reasserted the fact the a little bit of knowledge can make you think you are dangerous.
|
|
|
|
Post by airman on Jun 13, 2008 15:26:01 GMT -6
So I am sitting in a bar in wisconsin having a beverage and in comes these 20 some things. Life is going good watching baseball So the kids get to talkign sports with me and several other guys and it gets around to the Green Bay Packers offense. These twenty some things start telling me how the cover 2 defense is bad vs the green bay packers offense. How the 4 wr can destroy the cover 2 defense and that no team runs the cover 2 vs the packers. Well I thought that was rather odd since I remember the packers talking about how every one was going to cover 2 vs them to defend the run and force them to run. I also remember the colts saying the same thing with their one back vs cover 2 with regard the the passing game. So we get to the diagrams. I could tell they watched too much espn or nfl network cause they were drawing up the tampa cover 2 defense as their example of cover 2. now it is clearly been documented that I am no defensive guru but I do understand defenses becasue you have to in order to throw the ball against them. so I with my diagrams and show the various type of cover 2 with man and zone under. which they had no clue what I was talking about. seeing how they all just watch the packers they really do not study other teams offenses and defenses. Then I got to how you can make cover 2 actually look like cover 3 and vice versa, how you can roll your coverage from cover 2. what I tried to get them to grasp is that in the nfl they mix and match coverages and do not just line up in cover 2 or cover 1 very often allowing the qb to read the defense. heck great high school change things up. then I said cover 2 with forcing the defense to cover all 4 wr with two over the top is actually a great way to gash a team with your run game. They did not believe me how the offense has numbers. then we got on to the packers defense and how they play bump and run cover two. In reality the packers play a ton of quarters coverage with bump and run man coverage on the outside allowing the safeties to come up and play the run. once again they did not believe me. so I went and got my lap top with game footage of the packers on it and there response was well they did nto show that on the nfl network. I said, oh by the way I am a football coach. in the end they still believe the guys in the nfl network. I was wondering if a fan has ever came up to you and started talking football, telling you how things are done cause the watched the nfl network or football 101 on espn and they think they have it all down. It really reasserted the fact the a little bit of knowledge can make you think you are dangerous. what was even more funny was, when we talked big ten football how ohio state and michigan get there best recruits from out of state. now i am no ohio state fan but I know they get most of their starters from the state of ohio and the same goes with michigan. |
|
|
|
Post by eickst on Jun 13, 2008 16:00:40 GMT -6
I don't talk about sports with people in public places.
If you argue with a fool he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
|
|
|
|
Post by revtaz on Jun 13, 2008 16:14:03 GMT -6
I don't talk about sports with people in public places.
If you argue with a fool he will bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.BEST QUOTE EVAR!!! I stole it coach, hope you don't mind. Taz |
|
|
|
Post by eickst on Jun 13, 2008 16:42:16 GMT -6
I stole it from someone else so go ahead, just don't give me credit for it.
|
|
|
|
Post by dacoachmo on Jun 13, 2008 19:16:48 GMT -6
FK = YP + YC - BC
FOOTBALL KNOWLDEGE (FK)
YEARS PLAYED (YP)
YEARS COACHED (YC)
BEERS CONSUMED (BC)
If I ever start talking football with fans I just start talking with technical jargon and the fan's head explodes ala SCANNERS...(I'm sure Brophy will find a picture)
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 13, 2008 19:28:20 GMT -6
FK = YP + YC - BC
FOOTBALL KNOWLDEGE (FK) YEARS PLAYED (YP) YEARS COACHED (YC) BEERS CONSUMED (BC) If I ever start talking football with fans I just start talking with technical jargon and the fan's head explodes ala SCANNERS...(I'm sure Brophy will find a picture) Ahh..but coach..you forgot the every important "SPFKC" or Self-Perceived Football Knowledge Corollary. SPFK= Yp *Gw*BC years played * games watched *beers consumed. So see, in the SPFKC, beers consumed increases self perceived football knowledge... |
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Jun 14, 2008 3:36:50 GMT -6
Unless its at the state clinic, a bar isn't the best place to talk football. Everyone is an expert after watching NFL live. What I can't belive is that you brought your laptop into a bar to prove your point. I would have given up long before that.
|
|
|
|
Post by hemlock on Jun 14, 2008 5:54:14 GMT -6
I actually appreciate what Airman did. I believe that as coaches part of our responsibility is to educate fans about football. How can somebody actually enjoy something they don't understand? That's something that has always bothered me. Perhaps that's the reason I'm now an academic and not a football coach.
Think about, the best color people in football is (or was) Bill Curry. Curry truly approached his job as an analyst as a teacher; he believed that it was his job to explain the game and not just cater to the fans' worst instincts. I have tried to talk to people about the game. You would think that 3 bowl rings (no, I don't have them on all at once) would be enough to convince people that I do have clue about what I am talking about, but as Airman noted, they still think that NFL live or Espn people actually know more. They actually think that Mel Kiper knows something about football!!! A friend who is still coaching told me that he met Kiper when he came to evaluate one of their kids on the dline. He said that Kiper was nothing but an uberfan. It was apparent when they were watching film and could not identify the line techs of the dlinemen.
|
|
jman
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by jman on Jun 14, 2008 9:46:39 GMT -6
Airman took his laptop into the bar, ha ha ha that is great!
I find most fans really dont like talking strategy or schemes. They usually prefer to talk about how Jessica Simpson screwed up Tony Romo... or something equally provocative.
|
|
|
|
Post by hustleandheart on Jun 14, 2008 9:52:46 GMT -6
I'm essentially the kids at the bar that Airman is talking about (except I don't go to the bar, I'm just saying I know NOTHING compared to any coach) and I have trouble talking to my friends who watch football, they just refuse to know anything besides stats and score... I can't imagine what its like for the rest of you.
|
|
|
|
Post by cmow5 on Jun 14, 2008 10:37:36 GMT -6
I actually appreciate what Airman did. I believe that as coaches part of our responsibility is to educate fans about football. How can somebody actually enjoy something they don't understand? That's something that has always bothered me. Perhaps that's the reason I'm now an academic and not a football coach. Think about, the best color people in football is (or was) Bill Curry. Curry truly approached his job as an analyst as a teacher; he believed that it was his job to explain the game and not just cater to the fans' worst instincts. I have tried to talk to people about the game. You would think that 3 bowl rings (no, I don't have them on all at once) would be enough to convince people that I do have clue about what I am talking about, but as Airman noted, they still think that NFL live or Espn people actually know more. They actually think that Mel Kiper knows something about football!!! A friend who is still coaching told me that he met Kiper when he came to evaluate one of their kids on the dline. He said that Kiper was nothing but an uberfan. It was apparent when they were watching film and could not identify the line techs of the dlinemen. Is that same Bill Curry that is the new Head Guy at Georgia State? |
|
|
|
Post by groundchuck on Jun 14, 2008 14:05:01 GMT -6
I had this conversation about my offense with a dad once. Thought we should be throwing 4 and 5 WRs and all that. I drew up 4 and 5 wide on my board and asked him how he planned on protecting it. His response was a blank stare.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 14, 2008 14:12:17 GMT -6
groundchuck...he sounds like a perfect candidate for a wide receiver coach at many of the schools I have worked with  |
|
|
|
Post by hustleandheart on Jun 14, 2008 15:32:55 GMT -6
Also, might I add, anyone between age 7 and 35 think they know football because they play Madden.
|
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Jun 14, 2008 15:50:36 GMT -6
Speaking of madden, at my last job we would sometimes teach something using madden as a reference. We'd say run this route like "insert madden play name here" and the kids would understand. I like it when my players play madden because atleast its some football knowledge.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jun 14, 2008 15:54:05 GMT -6
I used to work with a fellow whose sister was married to a D1 football player. That coupled with the fact that he could watch ESPN and read magazines turned him into a guru by the time he was in his early 20s. He wasn't athletic enough to make a name for himself in football 9or any sport), so he turned into a self-proclaimed analyst.
I remember having riveting conversations with him that started with him stating "Tamp Cover 2 is the biggest piece of sh-t defense out there" or that "the most effective offense in football would be Air Raid; the DBs can't cover..."
The condescending little moron would make these huge broad statements about EVERY sport imaginable and I was actually dumb enough to argue with him on several occasions.
Thankfully, he tried to get on as a graduate assistant at his brother-in-law's school (his daddy was a tenured prof there as well) and was laughed out of the coaches office. Every time he piped up about ANY football related I reminded him of this fact.
|
|
|
|
Post by goldenbear76 on Jun 14, 2008 15:58:14 GMT -6
You know I was talking with a real good friend of mine the other day and we got to chatting about the team i'm coaching. So i'm going into schemes etc..and he stops me and says
..
I just like to see people get hit.
We laughed, and I got the hint lol.
|
|
|
|
Post by los on Jun 14, 2008 18:23:01 GMT -6
Ha Ha.....thats funny Bear.....but probably very true......the "Roman's" watching the gladiators in the coliseum, most likely, didn't care about the training methods......type of weapons used......formations........combatants alignments, etc...all the good X's and O's stuff.......they just wanted to see some people get "hit"....or gashed...or eaten by a lion....lol....and bet on their favorites.....then play "monday morning gladiator" over a couple cups of wine, and second guess the possible outcomes.....if it was "them" out there doing the fighting, lol
|
|
|
|
Post by hustleandheart on Jun 14, 2008 18:33:50 GMT -6
Speaking of madden, at my last job we would sometimes teach something using madden as a reference. We'd say run this route like "insert madden play name here" and the kids would understand. I like it when my players play madden because atleast its some football knowledge. Yes, thats a good idea because it is recognition and easy for them. But when trying to have a conversation about football with a couple of twenty something year olds you can't have a serious arguement or debate using solely Madden terms. Well I guess you can... |
|
|
|
Post by joe83843 on Jun 14, 2008 19:27:16 GMT -6
Speaking of madden, at my last job we would sometimes teach something using madden as a reference. We'd say run this route like "insert madden play name here" and the kids would understand. I like it when my players play madden because atleast its some football knowledge. I've actually taken a lot of what I've learned about reading defenses and constraint theory and applied it to the NCAA football series. If you know what plays to call, who to throw it to when, and when to audible you can beat some of the best teams on there with some of the worst. I'm not a gamer by any stretch of the imagination, so it's always fun to watch the jaws drop when I pull this off! |
|
|
|
Post by morris on Jun 14, 2008 20:32:55 GMT -6
Bill Williams once made the comment along the lines of shut up and do not try to impress someone with what you think you know. I think he threw the guy out of the clinic he was doing. He also made the comment that Homer Smith would stop a conversation\interview with someone by the way they drew up the Os of the Oline.
The sad thing is you have some coaches that are the same way.
|
|
|
|
Post by fatkicker on Jun 14, 2008 21:23:02 GMT -6
it does take some practice to draw good O's............
|
|
|
|
Post by Yash on Jun 14, 2008 21:36:26 GMT -6
i was once corrected cuz I drew cirlcles instead of ovals. And i Used to make my Qb a triangle but people didn't like that either.
|
|
|
|
Post by morris on Jun 14, 2008 22:06:12 GMT -6
The issue with the Os is that most people draw them like
OOOOO
instead of
ooOoo
showing the Gs and Ts are lined up further off the line the the center.
|
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
|
Post by tedseay on Jun 15, 2008 7:13:17 GMT -6
I've actually taken a lot of what I've learned about reading defenses and constraint theoryOh lord -- it's leaking into general usage... ;D  ;D |
|
|
|
Post by coachorr on Jun 15, 2008 8:49:13 GMT -6
DC Ohio, on the NFL network they said that 2 safeties means cover 2. So, obviously you are confused. It was the guy who used to play dline who said it, so he would know. (I am being sarcastic).
Airman, that was a great story, I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall to see their faces.
|
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on Jun 15, 2008 12:18:37 GMT -6
Getting the difference between three cover and cover three seems to be a bigger item.
Have heard it described both ways...
As for today's concept of the cover two:
True cover two doubles the HB with an inside-outside LB pairing to his side of the field. That was in the 70s when teams were going with star halfback offensive systems. Bud Carson/Floyd Peters stuff.
It is selling the MLB to the player most likely to run, not a deep middle like the Kiffin/Dungy Tampa2 shell in the pass happy days we now see. Teams going all curl have a time on the two shell, in the Tampa 2 you can end up with 5 defenders at the chains on your average third down distance. There's not a lot of space for control passing and percentage catches there, ball intergity becomes an issue. With a Tampa 2 your will needs to have a motor on him.
So this is taking what cover two teams hoped their D produced for third and long into an every down item. Free the MLB on the zone so the outside guys can key routes hard. Since everyone passes more today, Dungy made the third down plan into an every down plan.
Then again on third and long nothing is a given. Make people stay in front of you, run to the ball and hit somone. Also, speed is everywhere now. The line spaced wide for pass rushing, with the LB reading inside the defensive end able to key the TE. The idea is a soft zone with a hard rush that gets there without adding extra blitzers.
The other trend is the Big Nickle. Put a SS at LB so you get better coverage chances. Someone who is a hitter, speed to run the ball down, almost a LB in how well they tackle, a tweener. The Kiffin defense had this with Derrick Brooks as well.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jun 15, 2008 12:34:11 GMT -6
Getting the difference between three cover and cover three seems to be a bigger item. . I have seen you use this term "Three Cover, and Two Cover..before." I just thought that English wasn't your native language. I have never heard the term "three cover" Coach, with all do respect, you use more "coach speak" than any other coach on the board, and you rarely explain your specific jargon. It might help all of us if you did. |
|
|
|
Post by towtheline on Jun 15, 2008 12:46:48 GMT -6
One time I was talking to a friend who is a Hawaii "fan" because he likes all the passing. I was going to try and explain what I know about the run and shoot. First I told him that they use a lot of run and shoot principles. He responded by saying "don't you mean run and gun (NCAA video game playbook)?" I said no and he just told me I was stupid and don't know anything about football.
I had a hard time deciding if I wanted to punch him in the gut or laugh in his face
to this day he still thinks its called run and gun
|
|
;D