|
Post by phantom on May 17, 2008 16:29:41 GMT -6
This is really a more compelling problem.... "Pretty soon they'll want to investigate why the Bears won't cut ties with Rex Grossman." THIS isn't..... As to what the Patriots did or didn't do... the taping is breaking a RULE so there is a penalty. BUT, you're not supposed to be stealing signs from the opposing sideline either. Can anyone on this board tell me they AREN'T guilty of this??? There's no rule against stealing sideline signals live at any level from HS up. Nor is there a rule that you can't steal signals when you scout live.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 17, 2008 18:59:53 GMT -6
|
|
ramsoc
Junior Member
Posts: 431
|
Post by ramsoc on May 17, 2008 22:41:28 GMT -6
But, hey, how many more people have heard of Arlen Spector? Slow down friend, lets not take shots at the Senior Senator from my home state, the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Man worked his ass off to help get Steelers and Eagles new stadiums.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 17, 2008 23:15:54 GMT -6
According to the certification document obtained by the Globe, the tapes include: www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2008/05/08/walsh_has_tapes_but_not_of_walkthrough/"Signals from Dolphins coaches in a game Sept. 24, 2000. Offensive and defensive signals of Dolphins coaches from a game Oct. 7, 2001. Signals from Bills coaches from a Nov. 11, 2001, game. Signals from Browns coaches from a game Dec. 9, 2001. Two tapes of signals from Steelers coaches from the 2001 AFC Championship game, held Jan. 27, 2002. Signals from Chargers coaches from a game Sept. 29, 2002." Yet the Patriots originally denied even doing the taping. They were removed during road games in two different years for doing so. sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/09/13/belichick/index.htmlAn NFL-assigned security official stopped Patriots video assistant Matt Estrella during the first half of the game and confiscated the camera he allegedly used to film the signals of the Jets defensive coaches.In addition, Green Bay officials have said that before a Packers-Patriots game last November at Lambeau Field, they removed Estrella from the sideline after he was seen carrying a video camera and shooting footage of the Packers defensive coaches. The Packers, however, did not confiscate the camera.Had the team not taken liberty to do this during the season against the Jets, whose head coach(and former Patriot coordinator) probably had prior knowledge of the tactic, it might have been considered moot. As for Goodell's final league statement, it doesn't address a rule or disclose any other kind of tactic done so the veracity of what he said can be authenticated. Keep in mind that Goodell didn't even say that, underlings were used to address the topic in vague terms, further insluation from potential examination in the future. The other tactics were described at times, it may take a while to track them back from prior message boards, at the time so much new news results from the latest info dump on spygate that it may take some time to find the previous references. The above games listed did help provide key items, including securing home field in a playoff round for the team resulting from a three point overtime win on the road. No big deal at this point aside from the notion of sportsmanship, perhaps. The statement itself nullifies addressing rulebreaking anyways, the time he references to the rule was not lettered, he's essentially denying the game which the grounds removed a paid employee and confiscated his camera. Other than being caught breaking rules, they didn't. Ditto.... There was a sideline man who hired out use of a parabolic in some bay area games back in 2002, he wasn't on the network crews that I'm aware of because he was there when different networks would be there, his presence wasn't consistent with affiliated networks. He might have subcontracted out to others, but a friend who did sideline photography noted the man wasn't with the most likely third party either as they had separate(in-line production) techs do their parabolic work. So others could make similar assertions of contract work for some other team....
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 18, 2008 1:57:15 GMT -6
But, hey, how many more people have heard of Arlen Spector? Slow down friend, lets not take shots at the Senior Senator from my home state, the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Man worked his {censored} off to help get Steelers and Eagles new stadiums. Fact is, he's an Eagles fan, and Comcast is his second biggest campaign contributor.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 2:01:20 GMT -6
Slow down friend, lets not take shots at the Senior Senator from my home state, the great Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Man worked his {censored} off to help get Steelers and Eagles new stadiums. Fact is, he's an Eagles fan, and Comcast is his second biggest campaign contributor. WTF are you talking about? Are you another one of those conspiracy theorists?-leighty
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 18, 2008 3:32:20 GMT -6
Fact is, he's an Eagles fan, and Comcast is his second biggest campaign contributor. WTF are you talking about? Are you another one of those conspiracy theorists?-leighty A politician protecting his political interests is a far cry from the NFL cover-up to which you allude. If I was a United States senator with cancer, I don't think the NFL would be very high on my priority list.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 18, 2008 5:51:26 GMT -6
taping the signals for use in the game you are playing now is one thing taping the signals for use for later analysis is another thing. We are directly inferring that they engaged in some activity that maliciously taps into their headsets or someone has bugged their signal caller's booth. Belichick has been doing this since he was 9 years old. His father practically single-handedly advanecd the are of film evaluation and tendency use to quantum leaps past what George Halas pioneered. Belichick has been in the NFL business doing this sort of quality control for his entire professional life. The assertions made that the Patriots are only winning because they broke a rule is way too much of a stretch. He has been building dossiers on coordinators and teams for over 30 years..... They broke a rule - they were punished. The ones making the biggest stink about this are folks who are completely uneducated and ignorant of the practices of how coaches (namely QC coaches) operate on a daily basis (having nothing to do with gamesmenship). This, I fear, is just the indictment on our society - people advancing sensational causes without first informing themselves on what IS and what ISN'T. We make an assumption based on no facts, then when that assumption is challenged, rather than owning up to it, we instead try to save face by trying to find ANYTHING that will support our misguided pride. A politician protecting his political interests if you've followed anything regarding American (political) history or current politics, this is norm de rigeur in our society. I don't know what is so CT about this........it is the entire backbone of how are politicians work.
|
|
|
Post by phantom on May 18, 2008 6:25:08 GMT -6
If your hand signals are so consistent that they can film them and use them again then it's your own fault.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 18, 2008 6:57:17 GMT -6
A politician protecting his political interests if you've followed anything regarding American (political) history or current politics, this is norm de rigeur in our society. I don't know what is so CT about this........it is the entire backbone of how are politicians work. I don't know who this is directed towards, but that was my point exactly.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 16:50:39 GMT -6
Paul Brown Sr. is the one who made film study into an art form, the same man who published the first NFL playbooks.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 19:25:24 GMT -6
Smooth criminals Patriots bring cheating in the NFL into modern eraPosted: Thursday September 13, 2007 -Dr.Z Sure, people cheat in sports. In baseball they steal signals. In football they bring in a guy for a week, someone who was just cut by the team they're going to play, pump him for information and let him go on Monday. They'll even plant spies at each other's practices.
But the things that make this Patriots flap so bothersome are the following:
• The arrogance of the organization, the smugness. We are the greatest, with the greatest coach, a genius, etc. What other team ever had its owner, Bob Kraft in this case, take the Super Bowl trophy overseas in the name of world peace. What'll he take this year, the videos of the defensive signals?
• The fact that this is nothing new. Stories are now coming out of the woodwork that cheating has been a normal modus operandi with this club.
• Good old street crime is one thing. It goes with the history of sports. But this video thing lifts it to a new level of electronic surveillance and into the realm of the hi-tech, white collar crime that we all hate. Put these guys on the business page, for God's sake. There's no place for them in sports.
Last year the Lions played the Patriots in Foxboro. At one point their coach, Rod Marinelli, phoned up to the press box, "There's a camera pointed right at our defensive coach making his calls. Is that allowed?" A Lions' employee called the NFL booth. No, it certainly was not. So the videotaper was stopped. Then after a while he began again. The same process was repeated and he was asked to stop again. Now that's dedication.
"You don't really know for sure," Marinelli said. "I mean you don't know whether he might be doing something for NFL Films or a coaches' show or whatever."
"At one point we had a good drive going against the Patriots," said one Lion who doesn't want his name involved in this mess, but was willing to talk about it. "Mike Martz really had 'em going. They were getting fouled up, lining up wrong, we were moving the ball. Then boom, the headset from the sidelines to the coaches' booth goes out.
"Next possession we were moving the ball again and the same thing happened. You know it only takes two or three plays to mess up a drive."
Matt Millen, the Lions' GM, says he was talking to another team's head coach at the league meetings. He started telling him the story.
"Yeah, I know," the coach said. "Headset went out. It happened to me in Foxboro, too."
Marinelli was the defensive line coach in Tampa Bay when the Bucs beat the Patriots in the 2000 regular season opener and did a good job controlling New England's offense. After the game the Patriots' offensive coach, Charlie Weis, was overheard congratulating the Bucs' defensive coordinator, Monte Kiffin.
"We knew all your calls, and you still stopped us," Weis said. "I can't believe it."
He couldn't believe it because the Patriots had videotaped all of the defensive signals in their last preseason game, which was against the Bucs.
The stories are all coming out now, but why hadn't all this been reported to the league office before this?
"At the time, you never know for sure," Millen said. "And if you don't know it at the time, then you don't feel right reporting it later."
As a former Patriots employee, Jets coach Eric Mangini must have known what was going on. So why didn't he have some kind of system of dummy calls set up to foul up the video surveillance?
"He did," says a former Patriots employee whose name cannot be used for obvious reasons. "He had three sets of signals being given, one real, two dummy. He had the same thing going when he beat the Patriots last year. But still, it means extra work, changing the way you prepare for a game. It means both clubs are not playing on the same level field, and that's what's wrong about it."
I asked the former Patriot, who knows the organization well, if Mangini could in any way be held responsible for being part of a system that encouraged cheating. He paused for a moment to decide how to get this right.
"You have to understand that organization," he said. "You have to understand how incredibly tight the ring is. Information is not just passed around. Even if you might be aware of something, you're not going to know exactly how everything works. Eric was an employee there. He was not privy to every decision. His own operation was clean. Sure, he knew other stuff was going on, but how was he supposed to handle it?
"The amazing thing is the incredible arrogance they showed, coming into Giants Stadium, facing an organization with all those ex-Patriots employees, and still trying to cheat."
Here's a hard question. How tainted does Tom Brady now become, as the quarterback who was the recipient of stolen goods?
"That's a tough one," my source said. "Tom also is an employee there. He does what he's told. I'll say this about Tom Brady. Not only is he an employee, but he's a damn good quarterback and a fine person."
Everyone is secretly enjoying seeing the mighty Patriots being brought to earth.
"Irony, that's what my father loved best," said Art Rooney Jr., the Steelers' former player personnel director. "This would have been perfect for him."sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/dr_z/09/13/cheating/index.html?eref=T1
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 19:33:55 GMT -6
Matt from Munster, INWhat exactly happened with the headset communications between the quarterback and coaches? Did it affect any of the play calls? Vic: The Jaguars’ coach-to-quarterback communications device and Jack Del Rio’s headset went on the fritz in the first half. They kept cutting out. Del Rio advised the referee of the problem and requested the Patriots be required to take their headsets off, which is how I remember the situation having always been handled in the past. The referee, however, told Del Rio there was no NFL mandate for that to occur. In other words, you’re screwed, coach. Del Rio said the problem resulted in false starts. It was fixed during halftime and did not re-surface in the second half. Del Rio brought a laugh when he told reporters that his team played its worst football in the second half, so maybe it was a good thing the headsets didn’t work in the first half. He also said he will stimulate discussion on the matter during the winter meetings in an attempt to create a fairness rule.www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=4980
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 19:45:49 GMT -6
Coach Joe Gibbs(on the game) www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2007/10/redskins_chatte.html(On communication problems on the field or with the headsets) "There were issues. It’s a problem across the league. I don’t want to use that as an excuse for what happened to us today. We’ll just continue to the let the league know what happened to us today and we’ll just have to see how they deal with it." Digg This!
|
|
|
Post by brophy on May 18, 2008 19:59:43 GMT -6
thats all well and good, but headsets go out in a ton of other games as well.
Dick Jauron experienced this probably a half dozen times in Chicago against opponents other than NE. Phones go out, you move on. The officials actually acknowledge it during the game.
Anyone with Porta-Craps know how this goes......it isn't really a competitive advantage, so much as it is a major inconvenience. You haven't proven the Patriots and Bellichick went out of their way to jam signals, though. This is heresay and conjecture of fans.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 23:05:00 GMT -6
Burden of proof is on them for having denied taping signals and being found out otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 23:06:30 GMT -6
Conjecture of fans = NFL coaches, players, front office people discussing it with Paul Zimmerman.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 18, 2008 23:12:12 GMT -6
Burden of proof is on them for having denied taping signals and being found out otherwise. That's one of the more ridiculous statements I've read on this board. Burden of proof is on them for having denied taping signals and being found out otherwise = guilty until proven innocent. I was under the impression that's not how we ran things on this side of the world.
|
|
|
Post by raiderpirates on May 18, 2008 23:26:25 GMT -6
So now they're the victims for being caught red handed lying.
These totalitarian regimes, the very notion they'd ask rules be followed.
|
|
|
Post by leighty on May 19, 2008 0:14:26 GMT -6
So now they're the victims for being caught red handed lying. These totalitarian regimes, the very notion they'd ask rules be followed. I hope you're not the coach of the debate team.
|
|