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Post by los on May 4, 2008 12:52:26 GMT -6
Not that kind, lol! But in another defensive thread, there was some discussion about the "ethics" of running "the wedge", at the "youth level" (say the 12 and under crowd, specifically).......What I'm really thinking about, would be a super tight/no splits/6-7 man line......whose sole purpose on the play was to overlap, with the center as the tip of the spear......and drive their way downfield......running over every kid in their path......with the back in behind them, eventually cutting to daylight. Personally, I've never run it(with the exception of a QB sneak/possible center and gd.s wedge blocking).....just didn't fit in with our style of play.....but what do you all think.....as far as a safety issue, with these minimum play kids up front a lot......and what the benefits/short comings are.......as far as kids learning to play football....on both sides of the ball......not trying to be ethics police, just wondering?
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Post by dvo45 on May 4, 2008 18:47:38 GMT -6
At the "rec" (pay to play, minimum play rules etc) level I am totally against the wedge. Parents did not sign up there kids for them to learn how to crawl on all fours or dive at feet and get stepped on.
From the flip side, when the wedge is run right, it can be darn tough to stop and who cares who gets hurt on the other team.
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Post by brophy on May 4, 2008 19:54:47 GMT -6
technically, how different is wedge from any other double-team or GT Power scheme? You are just overloading the POA with bodies and running over everyone.
Wedge is an effective play - the attitude it is delivered by some folks may be questionable, but the play is just a play, and the defense has to do their job, otherwise its just a scrimmage.
the only 'ethical' issue would be is if you only run it against the minimum play kids, and not the bigger bodies.
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Post by los on May 4, 2008 21:31:58 GMT -6
Good points Brophy.......this isn't a "loaded" question by the way, lol....I "love" to run dbl tight and power it up inside.....just never ran this particular style play.....and was curious, if the trend to play the lesser talented/maybe smaller, minimum play kids, at the interior d-line positions, might be increasing the use of the wedge? And then, what the repercussions might be for youth football?
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Post by morris on May 5, 2008 5:38:03 GMT -6
I think the issue comes with technique on both sides fo the ball. All the way to freshman and some HS teams the line tend to stand up a little more than they should. This is veyr true on the lower levels. If you stand up against a wedge your going to get moved. Its great against those DL guys that are fast and want to stand up, find the ball and run or against fast guys at nose.
You get these guys that bearcrawl and dive into the gaps. Against most offenses that is fine but against a wedge your asking that kid to get stomped on. I know DW coaches (or a good deal the material on the DW) have their ol step on guys that drop to the ground. They practice stepping over them but that is when the play gets real brutal.
Honestly I like the wedge and think you can do more with it then just the quick dive. I am going to be playing around with it some this spring to see if some of my ideas will work.
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Post by davecisar on May 5, 2008 11:42:30 GMT -6
How much like soccer and flag football do you want the game to be?
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Post by dvo45 on May 5, 2008 11:50:57 GMT -6
How much like soccer and flag football do you want the game to be? Hey, the offense is the one doing the kicking...
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Post by brophy on May 5, 2008 12:45:29 GMT -6
If you teach wedge as; "We are going to get hip-to-hip with your inside teammate and we're gonna work the track. We have to stay low and engage with the flipper to keep those defenders off our knees and feet. We have to move the pile and keep pressing vertically......" or "Listen, gang....we need to get hip-to-hip and drive these $%#!@ off the ball and put them on their backs! They are gonna try to dive at yer feet, and if they are dumb enough to do that, we are going to stomp all over their hands and faces and chew them up!" Essentially, both are DOING the same thing, but are delivered with a different attitude. Does THAT make the difference in this play being "ethical"? (its still the same play).
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Post by davecisar on May 5, 2008 14:50:32 GMT -6
Matt, Im not sure Ive met anyone that has had the latter attitude. Shame on him if he does. I think minimum play rules and "mercy rules" are great but a league that tries to regulate each and every possible instance where someone might possibly get his fingers squished or his feelings hurt isnt a real football league. Lets leave that for the soccer moms and PETA folks We may run wedge as much as 10-15% of the time but reserve the right to run it more if the defense wants to stay in a silly 3 or 4 man front.
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Post by dvo45 on May 5, 2008 16:17:45 GMT -6
No matter how you phrase it, it is still coaching stepping on kids. At the pay-to-pay, everybody plays, rec level, I am totally against it.
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Post by raiderpirates on May 5, 2008 17:31:37 GMT -6
It isn't different from zone blocking for the first steps past contact. A lineman reads a double he gets low trying to wash the pile and the one who takes the block over reading LB flow piles on him.
The design is similar.
Football's a collision sport, don't like it, play soccer or start a flag league.
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Post by dvo45 on May 5, 2008 17:39:00 GMT -6
It isn't different from zone blocking for the first steps past contact. A lineman reads a double he gets low trying to wash the pile and the one who takes the block over reading LB flow piles on him. The design is similar. Football's a collision sport, don't like it, play soccer or start a flag league. That is my issue with the wedge, they are playing soccer.
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Post by los on May 5, 2008 19:04:33 GMT -6
I kinda get the idea of how to block it, from watching film clips.....what are some other ways you all stop/defend the play......without just diving down at their feet....assuming your d-line are equal or better talent than the o-line kids and "not" minimum play guys?....like I said, nobody ever ran it around here, so correct me if I'm wrong....but.... "Looks like" if the center can't get off ...or you had the nose and MLB, hitting both a-gaps, and the 4 techs were slanting hard to the inside(B-gaps)....like in a slanting/stunting 50 front.....the play has basically had it, before it gets started?..... What are some other ways to slow this thing down.....without getting kicked in the head, lol......What am I missing here?
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Post by davecisar on May 5, 2008 19:22:42 GMT -6
LOS, I guess no one has ever tried to stop us using that method in 8 seasons Ask DVO his teams have "blown out" teams that wedge without diving. He's got it down, never a need to bearcrawl hence never a need to whine about teams that may accidentaly step on someones hand No need for thread drama etc
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Post by dvo45 on May 5, 2008 19:33:00 GMT -6
LOS, I guess no one has ever tried to stop us using that method in 8 seasons Ask DVO his teams have "blown out" teams that wedge without diving. He's got it down, never a need to bearcrawl hence never a need to whine about teams that may accidentaly step on someones hand No need for thread drama etc Actually what Los described is exactly how we stopped a double wing/wedge team at the middle school level. Rec ball, is a different story. That is where the whole, bear claw/human soccer ball issue started with me.
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Post by davecisar on May 6, 2008 6:17:07 GMT -6
Im coaching a 7th-8th grade team this year, will let you know how we do.
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Post by dvo45 on May 6, 2008 6:32:30 GMT -6
Im coaching a 7th-8th grade team this year, will let you know how we do. From my understanding, the tip of the wedge is the center correct? If you can blow the center up that would cause the wedge to crack?
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Post by davecisar on May 6, 2008 7:10:16 GMT -6
As I mentioned in above posts a number of times, that method is tried every season by 3-4 teams minimum. (8 seasons worth) Never a problem for us. We wedge on the RG ( unbalanced SW)
Overcompensating to stop one play is defintely the entire goal of the wedge play, which we run 5-6 different ways ( not one play). We put the defense in conflict with it, our goal.
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Post by davecisar on May 6, 2008 7:16:06 GMT -6
Your team stops the wedge cold every time. In 83 games weve been able to consistently make it work in 80 of them and most seasons average over 10 ypc with it. In 2002 I took over an age 13-14 team and averaged nearly 8 ypc with it running DW. So Ive found when running it correctly and having complementary plays off of it to put the defense in conflict and threaten the entire field it was a very successful piece of a nice series. Keep doing what youre doing if it works so well and I will do the same. Best of luck
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Post by dvo45 on May 6, 2008 7:41:34 GMT -6
Your team stops the wedge cold every time. In 83 games weve been able to consistently make it work in 80 of them and most seasons average over 10 ypc with it. In 2002 I took over an age 13-14 team and averaged nearly 8 ypc with it running DW. So Ive found when running it correctly and having complementary plays off of it to put the defense in conflict and threaten the entire field it was a very successful piece of a nice series. Keep doing what youre doing if it works so well and I will do the same. Best of luck Now we can agree on something. I wish you luck and continued success in your future.
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Post by morris on May 6, 2008 7:41:38 GMT -6
If that 50 is pinching and slanting then how do they stop the jet/fly off of the wedge? The cirss cross action or the boot/sprint out.
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Post by dvo45 on May 6, 2008 7:46:20 GMT -6
If that 50 is pinching and slanting then how do they stop the jet/fly off of the wedge? The cirss cross action or the boot/sprint out. Luckily for us, we have only needed 4 or 5 guys to jam up the wedge, the back 6 or 7 is still just playing normal defense.
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Post by justryn2 on May 6, 2008 8:36:00 GMT -6
Generally speaking, when one player has his shoulders lower than another player, he wins. So, if in this wedge, your offensive line can get their shoulders lower than the d-line, AND still move forward, you should get good yardage. If the d-line gets lower, or just low enough that the o-line cannot move forward, the play gets stopped.
You don't just have to blow up the center, if you blow up any of the players forming the wedge, you've cracked it and created a space for someone else to come in and make the play on the ball carrier. In a 13-14 year old league, we used a wedge play very successfully in several games, were our o-line was getting lower than the d-line but not successfully when the situation was reversed.
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Post by davecisar on May 6, 2008 10:31:20 GMT -6
If that 50 is pinching and slanting then how do they stop the jet/fly off of the wedge? The cirss cross action or the boot/sprint out. Luckily for us, we have only needed 4 or 5 guys to jam up the wedge, the back 6 or 7 is still just playing normal defense. What about that MLB coming up hard, doesnt that leave a hole in your defense for the multiple complementary plays off the wedge action? I guess that approach would be fine if a team just runs wedge off of the same look, a one trick pony type thing. But for us where we run lots of different plays off that same look, it may be a bit different story. or the fact we run wedge off of so many different backfield actions and formations etc. Of all the film I see of teams that run these types of offenses, the wedge is usually the concept taught in the least correct fashion. Too many rush through it and dont break it down step by step or even know the correct steps. They dont hold the kids accountable to perfect technique on each step. Then they dont practice it enough or consistently or know how to troubleshoot it. So many teams in our league have tried to copy us on the wedge play and none of them run a descent wedge play, they usually give up on it early. Even some of the better SW teams that send me film of their teams running wedge, rarely run it real well IMHO. It's not unstoppable but a well run wedge play as part of a series works very well and sets up big complementary plays and forces defenses out of their comfort zone.
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Post by los on May 6, 2008 12:00:42 GMT -6
Thats pretty interesting Dave.....guess I didn't think about it, as a high maintenance type play......I do realize, its just one play in a good series, though, and over defending "this" could leave you open to other things.....what's the normal teaching progression for this kinda blocking?.....like if someone wanted to run it.....in something else, other than the single/dbl. wings? Like I said.....I have no basis of knowledge about it....nobody ever used a true "full line" wedge blocking scheme here?
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Post by davecisar on May 6, 2008 12:59:25 GMT -6
If there are those that seriously want to learn how to do it properly to run it and not just as an exercise in throwing spit balls I could start another thread on how to teach it.
That is obviously only part of the puzzle, then you get into the various series we use it with and the conflicts we create with it. What different backfield actions we pair it with, formationing and why we love it when MLBs go after our center etc. etc
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lbdad
Freshmen Member
Posts: 97
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Post by lbdad on May 6, 2008 13:12:23 GMT -6
two points about the wedge.1 if it's a odd front you block the nose,if it's even you block no one.the guards puts there inside shoulder on the centers but and the takles and ends do the same.2 single double or jet this is a wing t based play g t and ends are as far off the ball as the rules say,first steps are pull steps if ran and tought right it is vary hard to stop.coach calende may have tape of the wedge ran the way it is intended.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 6, 2008 19:21:02 GMT -6
At the "rec" (pay to play, minimum play rules etc) level I am totally against the wedge. Parents did not sign up there kids for them to learn how to crawl on all fours or dive at feet and get stepped on. From the flip side, when the wedge is run right, it can be darn tough to stop and who cares who gets hurt on the other team. My "issue" only stems from this as well. Scrumming up and down the field ...while productive...isn't my idea of "fun" for the kids involved, ESPECIALLY for the MMP kids who usually play DT's..
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Post by los on May 7, 2008 6:00:07 GMT -6
No spitballs here teacher....I mean, Dave......Gulp!.....I mean, anybody who wants to....can talk about it here I guess....or start another thread.....just interested in how you all teach it?
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Post by coachdoug on May 7, 2008 7:40:15 GMT -6
If there are those that seriously want to learn how to do it properly to run it and not just as an exercise in throwing spit balls I could start another thread on how to teach it. That is obviously only part of the puzzle, then you get into the various series we use it with and the conflicts we create with it. What different backfield actions we pair it with, formationing and why we love it when MLBs go after our center etc. etc I'd be interested to learn how you teach the progression. As you've pointed out, there are a lot of sloppy, ineffective wedges out there - the difference is in out it is taught/coached. So, yes, please start another thread.
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