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Post by cllew on May 1, 2008 21:17:53 GMT -6
Need advice and creative solutions for a dysfunctional feeder program:
1. The youth football program in town encourages high school aged players (incoming 9th graders and older kids) to remain in the youth program and NOT play high school football. They actively put down the high school program.
2. The youth program as won several "national" championships by playing down (C team) and playing alot of older but lighter boys. They've had to migrate to different leagues because once they win they won't move up.
3. Currently they are in a league where the age limit is 18 with graduated weight classes.
4. They sell their program on their familiarity with the players and parents, reduced practice time (only 3 days a week), and winning national championships. The youth program has a pretty big following, including people in important town positions (chair of board of ed, deputy mayor, etc.)
5. The high school has been very successful the last 4 years - 4 winning seasons with 2 years at 9-1 with a playoff appearance. We've had quite a few players go on to D1AA, D2, and D3 college programs.
6. We are experiencing a reduction in numbers at the freshman level because of the youth program. Even when we get some back, they've either missed important time - freshmen and/or sophomore years, and they've usually played out of position. The 150lb middle lb who never lifted weights now knows nothing about being a safety.
What are ways to turn this around? All and any ideas welcome!
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Post by los on May 1, 2008 22:53:45 GMT -6
Seems like this deal is really stacked against you cllew? Ours here only played youth ball(mixed weight league), till 7th grade.......then jumped at the chance, to play with the school team.....matter of fact, we had a tough time keeping the better 7th graders interested.....and if not for the jr. high coach, convincing them to stay down, one more season, most would have jumped ship, lol! I always figured these older kids, who kept playing youth ball, more or less.....#1- just wanted to stay a big fish, in a little pond?(not able to compete with the bigger/older kids....but....a super star in weight class ball?)).....#2 - weren't good enough to start on the school team, and didn't want to ride the bench(playing time)......#3 - parents were scared of them playing in a mixed weight format(parental fear factor)......#4 - didn't want to lift weights, work as hard or as long, as the players on the school team do? (instant gratification, society we live in now, lol?) #5 - don't know what to think about the arrogant, amateur coach's....they're probably just being selfish....thinking about their own personal glory.....by holding these kids back? Some "ideas" might be......#1 = hold some youth clinic's, using your HS coaching staffs, for the players and coach's, before their seasons start = make it worthwhile/interesting/get to know them.....and the parents?.....maybe let them know your "programs intentions", like playing everyone in the jr high/9th grade games, that drills in practice will be grouped by size/skill level?......this may help with the playing time/injury fear factor? Generally, at least around here, playing for the school team doesn't cost them anything, or very little......the pay to play youth ball, can be very expensive.....throw in the travel expense, with high gas prices....and....playing for the school and riding a bus, might be very attractive? I'd run a "positive" ad campaign here cllew.....present and sell your programs strengths and benefits.....either at clinics and other get togethers......mailing something out.....in the local paper.....or in the schools? Other things that were "much" better here, on the school team vs our youth program......waay cooler uniforms and better equipment......they played/practiced on a better field/stadium......obviously, much better coaching........they started practice earlier and got through, before we ever started = better for getting homework and stuff done....."their coach" had a deer meat cookout for them every week = we stopped at the curb store for cheap snacks......thats all I can think of now.....but will add more if I get a brainstorm, lol.....good luck
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Post by coachsky on May 1, 2008 23:11:15 GMT -6
To me it's all about outreach. Our most effective tactics:
1. Jr. Camp - player and coaches teach. Booster club BBQ's and recruits parents with older kids. We make this fun and give away a lot a t-shirts, posters and logo balls. Nightly competition, talk from star players, its a production.
2. Coaching Clinic for the Youth Program. They get a BBQ and a night with the HS staff, Jr. Playbooks, drill package, they learn our warm up. Tour the weight room, give the dvd cut-ups featuring base plays.
3. Our coaches and players attend a few youth games. We wear our logo gear, hoot and holler, give the kids high 5's, shake hands with parents, usually go to games of Jr. High age kids.
4. We have a youth football night at our games, kids wearing their youth game jerseys get in free and get a snack bag from the boosters. Mini Scrimmage at half time. We recognize all the youth coaches in attendance. 150 youth players form a tunnel as the team comes out at halftime, they get down on the field.
They are SOLD! It's all about marketing. Be enthusiastic and just start, it takes a couple years, but it'll work. Be consistent don't listen to the naysayers, get it done. Your competing for their time and attention - WIN!
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Post by bj88smc on May 2, 2008 4:09:05 GMT -6
I run a youth league and coach at a local public HS. I just took over the youth program 1 year ago. We had a lot of controversy regarding 9th graders playing in our league, prior to my arrival. We, now, don't allow 9th graders to play in our league. We want them to go to H.S. While we have very dedicated volunteer youth coaches, I always tell parents, that on a whole, your child is going to get better coaching at the H.S. level. I agree with Los, run a positive campaign.
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Post by olinecoach61 on May 2, 2008 5:59:39 GMT -6
We have similar issues although we get them by 10th grade. They're fundamentals are bad, they have 5 foot 7 140 pound kids playing the oline. We get them in high school and have to teach many of them entirely new positions. I'm hoping the youth league reforms it policies and forces 9th graders to high school.
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Post by cllew on May 2, 2008 8:26:01 GMT -6
Thanks for the replies. All of your ideas are good.
We've done some of these
* invitation and cookout at our spring game
* free attendance to games with jersey
* play a flag football game at half-time of the game
The youth program coaches will not participate in any youth clinic.
I think you are right about a positive marketing campaign.
We need access to parents to point out the benefits of playing HS football in terms of (a) athletic future and opportunity for impact on college plans, (b) smoother academic and social transition into HS by having an identity (c) more after-school structure for their child, and (d) better preparation for life.
At the same time we need to get the middle school kids excited about playing HS. We need our players to befriend and invite the younger kids into our family. So attending their games, etc is important. We've had invited kids to be on the sidelines in the past.
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Post by rideanddecide on May 2, 2008 9:41:27 GMT -6
Help me out here, because I can't grasp this concept...
Do I understand that league rules allow 18 year olds to play in a "Youth League"?
If that is the case, then what are neighboring districts doing?
I can't believe leagues like that exist. I guess I just assumed that once you are in 9th grade you compete on HS teams.
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Post by poweriguy on May 2, 2008 11:07:31 GMT -6
I can't believe leagues like that exist. I guess I just assumed that once you are in 9th grade you compete on HS teams. word What he said....  |
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Post by ajreaper on May 2, 2008 12:45:20 GMT -6
LOL, apparently every state has a Pop Warner "national champion". In my situation I can say that there is zero correlation between being a Pop Warner "all american" and becoming a decent high school football player. Often they lack a work ethic, have little self discipline and over all poor fundementals. Youth coaches often coddle athletic kids and spend a lot of time practicing plays and formations and no time on individual techniques and fundamentals.
One approach you may want to include is the importance of becoming a better athlete- 12 month programs designed to improve a players size and speed. If they don't get started on this until their sophmore or jr. year of high school they'll be playing as a senior but have the body of a sophmore and that never works out to well- for the player or the program.
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Post by justryn2 on May 2, 2008 18:37:13 GMT -6
I just wasn't aware that there were "youth" leagues out there that allowed players enrolled in high school to compete. The age limit in our league is 14 but the rules also specifically prohibit players if they are enrolled in high school.
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Post by jhanawa on May 2, 2008 22:44:52 GMT -6
Ajreaper, not being arguementive, just pointing out a few facts and observations. I've coached several years on Varsity, JV, Frosh and jrhs level kids so I guess I have a "rounded" view on it.
LOL, apparently every state has a Pop Warner "national champion". In my situation I can say that there is zero correlation between being a Pop Warner "all american" and becoming a decent high school football player
In your situation this maybe correct, however, not too far away from you there are a few perennial powers that benefit heavily from solid feeder programs.
Maybe some programs don't care about experience, but most every HS coach wants kids to come in from a "feeder" and have good fundamentals. Sometimes they come in with bad habits, which is IMO worse than having no experience.
Unfortunately, JR HS programs don't exist in many parts of the country, so the alternative is the private league stuff. BTW, in Pop Warner, each state has a single state champion, then regionals, then a single national champion for each age/wt. level.
Often they lack a work ethic, have little self discipline and over all poor fundementals.
I'd wager heavily that our jrhs level kids would live up to your work ethic and fundemental standards and then some.
Youth coaches often coddle athletic kids and spend a lot of time practicing plays and formations and no time on individual techniques and fundamentals.
Unfortunately, this isn't just reserved for youth coaches or parent/coaches, its is prevalent in High School Football too. Just my opinion, but there are a lot of HS programs that fit into the catagory of being fundamentally unsound. Unfortunate, but true.
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Post by touchdowng on May 3, 2008 9:28:10 GMT -6
cllew
This is a tough scenario.
Ever thought about bringing in a college coach to help you run a camp for all age level? We run our youth camp in the evenings. This way parents can attend (and they do!). We work their kid's butts off for 2 hours, have a ton of fun and do lots of PR things. We paint the picture that work will provide success and EVERY parent can relate to that.
If I had your issue, I would invite a football expert to come out and give a speech about the merits of H.S. Football (Too many to list here). There has to be somebody you can reach out to who has achieved success at the collegiate or professional level as a player or a coach who can talk about the link that H.S. FB plays with the "next level" but more importantly the link between a work ethic developed as a H.S. STUDENT/athlete and work ethic in real life.
Most of the parents of the young kids don't know $hit from Shinola when it come to FB but all can relate to working 9 to 5 everyday.
Practice less? That would be seen as "weak" in my viewpoint. We let parents know that we still "WORK" 4 days a week in the OFF-season and are preparing their kids to be ready to work in life because they're all going to have to do this, or live with mommy and daddy until their 40. We're talking 15 - 19 year olds here and they need to step up at that point in their lives.
This is where I would start.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 3, 2008 10:33:33 GMT -6
First things first--I think you need to change your viewpoint of the situation. If their age limit is 18...it sounds like this is not a feeder program, but rather COMPETITION for athletes.
Unfortunately, it seems these guys fit a very specific niche. Those that want to be BIG fish in a SMALL pond.
From what you describe, I don't view it as a "bad" thing at all. More of a different thing, almost like a "sprint" football league ( 150 lb weight limit type thing) which might interest some.
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Post by coachwarner on May 3, 2008 14:40:13 GMT -6
Here we go again, coaches vs coaches, programs vs programs "LOL, apparently every state has a Pop Warner "national champion". In my situation I can say that there is zero correlation between being a Pop Warner "all american" and becoming a decent high school football player. Often they lack a work ethic, have little self discipline and over all poor fundemantals. Youth coaches often coddle athletic kids and spend a lot of time practicing plays and formations and no time on individual techniques and fundamentals. Coach ajreaper Pop Warners definition of an "all american" is a Scholastic All American it has little to do with his athletic ability. In order for a player to become a scholastic all american he generally has to have a grade point average of about 99 and be involved in other activities like boy scouts, band, or other functions etc which are not sports related. I would think that would make him a prime candidate in becoming a high school football player with a outstanding work ethic and discipline dont you think. High school Coaches working with youth coaches and vise a versa is the answer. Coaches are always saying those guys are taking our athletic players. what about the so called non athletes do any of you coaches help the feeder program recruit these players. I would bet most good youth organizations that are worth their salt would take any and all participants. As soon as a player gets involved in a sport he becomes an athlete coaches job is to train him. As far as having to coach a player who played a different position in youth football and now has to be taught a different position in high school is ridiculous, I would hope that they played a couple different positions. that would give them a better understanding of the game, and possibly be our coaching replacements in years to come! Its the Job of the coach to become educated and educate others along the way. Coaches should stop blaming others for their short comings. As for the original post Every coach has to sell is program . "4. They sell their program on their familiarity with the players and parents, reduced practice time (only 3 days a week), and winning national championships. The youth program has a pretty big following, including people in important town positions (chair of board of ed, deputy mayor, etc.)" They are selling their program and winning along the way that does not make them dysfunctional. What is dysfunctional is the lack of communication between the two programs. Is the high school football players experience better than the youth football players experience? Is The college football players experience better than the high school football players experience? Is the high school coaching experience better than the youth coaching experience? should one be better than the other? I dont think so as long as we can give as many people as possible a positive football experience. As others have stated selling your program is where you must start. Getting everyone working together for community football is where you must begin. How you do that is through communication with each other, that both programs can co-exist. both programs must come to the realization that one is not better than the other, nor should it be. |
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Post by coachd5085 on May 3, 2008 15:01:15 GMT -6
coach warner--good points, HOWEVER, i think the "issue" in the original post is that both programs ARE competing for the same group of kids at some point. The kids being talked about are kids who are playing with the youth/rec organization their frosh/soph/jr years of HS.
To the H.S team in question (or to the rec program team for that matter) the other sport being played by the other is irrelevant. It is no different than fall baseball, or fall lacrosse, or fall soccer....
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Post by coachwarner on May 3, 2008 16:07:45 GMT -6
Thats is my point. neither program should be irrelevant. both should be expanding
their search and working together for more players.
Its not a question of where are they playing football.
Its a question of are they playing.
Lets work together and go after the kids that are not playing.
just my opinion
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Post by los on May 3, 2008 21:06:22 GMT -6
I knew this would get JH riled up, lol  Some places don't have middle school or jr. high teams.....so a youth league is a good substitute.....we were lucky enough to have a jr high school team but also had an age limit cap in our youth program = 13 after sept 1st, were the oldest kids who could participate with our oldest group.....but no weight limits....also...as soon as I typed "obviously, better coaching".......I felt it may not come across right?....and would appear to snub, the many great youth coach's around the country....whose players make a smooth transition into hs ball.....should have been..."usually much better coaching".....hows that, lol......I still can't understand why the youth coach's wouldn't want to participate in a HS coach's clinic?....Just seems odd to me, especially since I've personally(youth coach) learned so much about line play and other stuff, from cllew on this site....very odd ?  |
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Post by jhanawa on May 4, 2008 17:03:15 GMT -6
Los, not riled up at all. I'm just saying, there is good coaching and bad coaching at both levels. Where I'm at, I'd wager the percentages at each level are close. I'd like to see more coaches at both levels take more interest in learning about the game and how to properly teach it, the end result benefits the game, the kids and the coaches.
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Post by coachd5085 on May 4, 2008 17:56:46 GMT -6
Thats is my point. neither program should be irrelevant. both should be expanding their search and working together for more players. Its not a question of where are they playing football. Its a question of are they playing. Lets work together and go after the kids that are not playing. just my opinion But coach, there are finite resources..(namely, kids ages 14-18). From the outside looking in, I think your outlook is a little naive and overly optimistic. The "everyone happy, spreading the gospel of football" ideal sounds great...until it is your butt on the line losing because another program is splitting the talent pool... |
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Post by touchdowng on May 4, 2008 18:37:29 GMT -6
So cllew
What do you plan on doing?
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Post by cllew on May 6, 2008 18:51:15 GMT -6
I can add to the drama a bit -
The coach at the youth level, another coach from the neighboring town, and I are finalists for the head coaching position at the school. I've been there two years as the O/D line coach (our TB ran for over 3400 yards the last two years and we went 15-4-1 in those two years).
The superintendent of the school system (the asst. super and HS principal were there also) posed this question after I said I was creative and a good problem solver -
"There is popular youth football coach in town that has a big following and dissuades players from coming out for the HS team. The previous coach [who stepped down unexpectedly after we went 9-1] who the HS players held in awe the entire time he was here could not increase the numbers of the program. We need more players in the program - a varsity of 40 is too small for a school of this size. What are you going to do?"
Now, before we go any further, the youth coach was actually hired to be on the original staff of the coach who just stepped down, along with a couple of other town coaches. Five days before the start of the official season, they all quit on the same day and abandoned the program. So this has been going on for over 5 years.
Of course, he is a candidate for the position and can deliver the players he has encouraged to stay back.
In the interview I said something to the effect that (a) that we need to be able to talk to the youth program and get them to realize that we are putting kids and their families into a dilemma by fighting over their kids, (b) we should all do what is best for the kids and their families, and (c) I need to present the pros and cons of playing HS football vs youth in an open environment (open house, etc), perhaps with representatives of the youth program (like a college fair).
Furthermore, I said the key was to try to align our goals - to do what is best for the kids - and we need to gain their cooperation. I said I would go as far to put a youth coach on my staff - not necessarily my rival, but an existing coach so we could start to build a relationship. I said I believe in 2nd chances.
At the end of the interview when it was my turn to ask questions, I asked them what they would do with the youth program. The assistant superintendent spoke up - he is friendly with the youth coach since his kids went through the program. He didn't say anything much, but did say that my offer, if perceived as genuine could work.
After the interview I knew this was a big issue so I talked to some of our parents whose kids have gone through the youth program and to the president of the youth program who has a kid on the varsity. He said that there are about 10 players a year who stay down (figure they can reasonably stay until their sophomore year) and a number who don't go out at all - either youth or HS. He felt that there was little communication to the parents about the varsity program (I know there have been several things done over the years, but it is his perception), and that many opt to stay because the youth program has been successful. Now I know the youth coach works hard to persuade certain players to stay down and regularly bad mouths our program, but that is neither here nor there, for me.
I took this information, along with some observations about the shortcomings in our freshmen team in terms of retention and outlined 3 strategies for the superintendent via email.
Strategy #1 is to simply address the issue with the youth team - it is kind of the 500lb gorilla in the back of the bus that no one wants to talk about - and get them to agree that some players are better off in HS and some are better off in youth (I'll take them as sophomores or juniors for now) and we should work together to sort them correctly. This way, the badmouthing should be reduced and we get the players (sometimes the bigger ones) they can't use or want. It starts to build a bridge and lets them know we want our kids.
Strategy #2 is a comprehensive marketing campaign based upon many of the ideas presented here - thanks guys! It is mainly aimed at the parents and the players and can be implemented without the consent of the youth team. Their cooperation is better for many of the ideas, but remember many of their real leaders discourage association with the HS program (they pitch themselves as being an elite youth program). Given that the youth program is in tougher league that won't allow as many shenanigans (playing down at lower levels and stacking older but lighters) and our increased presence and success, we should be successful long-term.
Strategy #3 focused upon improving the freshmen experience and collecting more data to make the program, lets say, more user-friendly without sacrificing our mission or principles. It may requiring a coaching change/reassignment. I would also revisit with any players who have left the HS program or played youth and have not. There are enough players to help us out and improve our numbers in the meantime.
This was several days ago - I did get a nice email back from the super acknowledging my efforts on this important issue. But all of us are waiting to hear who gets the job or if there will be a 4th round of interviews.
I have the solid support of the players and their parents, the ex-head coach, and the existing coaching staff. The youth coach has members in town, including the chairman of the board of education, the assistant superintendent (perhaps), and the deputy mayor (who employs him as a landscaper). The third candidate has some issues and is bit too traveled, but does let the superintendent bypass the political issues (youth vs existing HS) by going completely outside the town.
It will be interesting, but it has been two months in the making as other opportunities go by.
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Post by los on May 6, 2008 19:14:00 GMT -6
Wow! How can this part-time guy, be qualified enough, to be considered for a HS varsity hc job, cllew? What experience does he have at this level? This is pretty wild....good luck, hope you get it....  |
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Post by raiderpirates on May 7, 2008 1:34:42 GMT -6
Best of luck, you've been up front on the lines helping develop a good team.
There's some people really pulling for others from the sounds of things. Four rounds of talk, it sounds like you are building more support as you go, and still there is some resistance.
It is what it is, playing for your HS is the first step to making a lot of other goals become reality.
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Post by kurtbryan on May 7, 2008 2:14:50 GMT -6
When Revamping an Organization, in the opinion of yours truly:
1. Realign the organizational structure
2. Reassign the key people within the organization
3. Redefine the Goals of the Organization
* Make sure EVERYBODY knows items 1 - 3, and this has worked well for me.
KB
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Post by justryn2 on May 7, 2008 19:40:45 GMT -6
Cllew, I really wish I had some sage words of advice to offer but I am still shocked to hear that there are "youth" football programs that accept high school athletes. I do have a question, if you don't mind. Who does the "youth" football team play? By that I mean, do they play other "youth" teams in the area or are they competing against high school teams? It seems to me that, if they are playing against other "youth" teams, then your school must not be the only one in the area facing this problem. Perhaps you could contact other high school coaches affected by the same "youth" league and work together to confront the issue.
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bhb
Junior Member
Posts: 259
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Post by bhb on May 7, 2008 23:01:12 GMT -6
I agree with justryn.. these guys are playing somebody, as crazy as HS aged "youth" teams sounds, so this must be an issue for everyone in your area.. I'd be careful about getting with other HS coaches to "confront the issue"- never know, might irritate the "youth" guys enough to cause even more grief for you- but definitely get with them to see how they're dealing with it.. And then get together and squash this HS "youth league" ;-).. Kidding about that last part- but not the rest..
This is an odd situation, to say the least..
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Post by cllew on May 8, 2008 7:54:38 GMT -6
They play other youth teams whose age brackets extend into HS age. You don't have to have older kids on your team (probably most don't have as many).
Even Pop Warner has a league you can be age 16 on July 31st and 165lbs and play youth football. That would have been my senior year (late birthday, not held back by my parents).
But even if the cut-off is 15 years old by July 31, some kids can play in their junior year if they make the weight limits.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on May 8, 2008 8:32:54 GMT -6
As a youth coach, i must say this is a troubling situation, but doesn't really surprise me. The more I get involved with youth sports, the more I understand the egos and backstabbing nature of people that try to put a pereception that they are "doing it for the kids."
I coach an 8th grade competitive team. Often we get calls from 9th graders who want to play on our team. For them it appears as "safe" alternative to freshman football. We have never and will never knowingly accept a freshman player unless there is some EXTREME circumstance that I can't think of right now. A freshman in high school who wants to play football needs to be on the high school team. Why? Because whether he or his parents know it, that is what is best for the kid. Unfortunately what is best for the kid often gets lost in what is best for that competitive adult that wants to win and wants to get praise.
As a youth football coach, I consider myself and the staff we have to be qualified, competent coaches. We can teach these kids tools they can use in their football development that will not only benefit them now, but also throughout their career. However, high school coaches are still more qualified, in my opinion, to raise the level of a high school player. In many cases they have more time, resources, and expertise to develop the skills players need to continiously improve their game.
The people running this youth program that competes with the high school and divides this town are an embarrasment to youth coaching.
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Post by cllew on May 8, 2008 13:09:03 GMT -6
CoachJ,
I appreciate your post.
I've been a youth coach and we always had our 9th graders go to HS. I can understand that there are some players who might be better off in a youth program - size, athleticism or lack of, inexperience, social needs - but this should be an exception rather than a rule.
Creating an atmosphere where one program is pitted against the other demonstrates how adults can screw up anything. We will probably do fine even if they hold back players as long as we get the kids who stop playing youth and currently do not play HS football.
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Post by justryn2 on May 8, 2008 13:34:09 GMT -6
I totally agree CoachJ. As I said in my first post on this subject, in addition to the age limits (under 15 on 9/1) the league I coach in also has a stipulation that players enrolled in a high school are not eligible.
Now you guys can argue with me on this if you want, but I truly believe that football is not a sport for everyone. Youth programs give kids an opportunity to see if football is something they like and want to continue playing. If they do, by the time they get to high school, they need to be able to compete with kids their own age; not just their own size. High school is time to start separating the men from the boys if you will. If a player cannot compete in football with others his own age by the time he's in high school, he should probably consider a different sport.
I'm sure some will disagree with me on this but that's my opinion.
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Some places don't have middle school or jr. high teams.....so a youth league is a good substitute.....we were lucky enough to have a jr high school team but also had an age limit cap in our youth program = 13 after sept 1st, were the oldest kids who could participate with our oldest group.....but no weight limits....also...as soon as I typed "obviously, better coaching".......I felt it may not come across right?....and would appear to snub, the many great youth coach's around the country....whose players make a smooth transition into hs ball.....should have been..."usually much better coaching".....hows that, lol......I still can't understand why the youth coach's wouldn't want to participate in a HS coach's clinic?....Just seems odd to me, especially since I've personally(youth coach) learned so much about line play and other stuff, from cllew on this site....very odd ? 
