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Post by theprez98 on Nov 20, 2007 23:42:24 GMT -6
Is anyone familiar with the 5th quarter concept? Has anyone played in a league that uses it?
The idea is that you play a standard 4 quarter game, which is official at the end of those 4 quarters. You then play a 5th quarter so that you can give more playing time to those kids who might not get much in the game.
Our varsity HC mentioned it as an idea he would like to see at the JH level, but I'm not sure what i think about it without knowing other coaches experiences or ideas.
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Post by davecisar on Nov 21, 2007 5:58:09 GMT -6
I coached in a youth league for 5 years that had that type of rule in place. On the surface it makes sense, get kids some playing time that didnt get it in the real game. Unfortunately kids know what the real game is and when the scrimmage starts. There is celebration and conclusion at the end of regulation, then oh man yeah we have to do the 5th quarter, While the starters are taking off thier gear, the backups get a few snaps. BAckups vs backups makes for a very arguous and herky jerky period that is often a mess. I then went to a league with no 5th quarter or minimum play rules, I played all my kids x number of plays and was at a disadvantage for doing so. Now we play in a league that has a realistic minimum play rule, puts all the teams on equal ground. And the kids all get playing time in the games, they know the difference between 5th quarter and real games. And it isnt circus time, its with the "regular" kids that know how to play. Just my opinion.
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Post by eickst on Nov 27, 2007 17:18:04 GMT -6
Our MPP rules are kind of crappy but very easy to manage as far as substitution is concerned. Instead of minimum plays, we have to keep players in for one entire quarter on offense, defense, and special teams. We designate their quarter before the game starts on the must play sheet.
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Post by piquaindian on Nov 27, 2007 20:39:23 GMT -6
I've never heard of the 5th quarter rule.
In our league, each kid must play at least 6 plays per game.
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Post by Coach Huey on Nov 29, 2007 23:23:00 GMT -6
not bad in concept. however, i can see what dave is saying and how the 'reality' of what it is would affect the kids. if one were to implement it, could it be done first? like, sometimes when we do pre-season scrimmages with other schools we may start off with a 7-on-7 "pass hull" taking place on 1 end of the field and a 7-on-7 "run hull" going on at the other end (then switch groups ... i.e. 1's at pass while 2's at run / vice-versa)
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Post by los on Dec 1, 2007 20:58:29 GMT -6
We did this for a few seasons, in our league here, but only as a temporary measure, when the teams in our league, had a "huge" crop of new 8 yr olds come out for a couple back to back years. It depends on your age format, size of the league etc.., whether or not it would work for you. We only had 2 age groups and played in a 3 county league. We had an 8-10 group and an 11-12 group. So, along in then, I think there were 7 or 8 teams in the younger age group in our league .They had sooo many inexperienced 8 yr olds, the guys running each county team decided on this 5th qtr deal, as an option, to give them all "more" playing time. The rules were= all 8 yr olds could play and then some of the less athletic 9 yr olds as well(subject to both coaches approval) Seems like we played a 30 minute running clock, can't remember for sure? We tried to play every kid during regulation play, even if just on special teams or running in for a play or two, here and there, and this just added to that. The parents were ok with it, they played on the HS football field, their older teammates cheered them on from the sidelines, seemed like a good deal all the way around. So it can work, under the right circumstances.
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Post by coachmoore42 on Dec 2, 2007 12:31:01 GMT -6
We have used the 5th quarter concept for a few years. We have since added JV games (middle school), but there are a few who don't have enough to field a full JV team and they still like to do fifth quarters after their games.
The coaches just use common sense on who should shouldn't be playing in that session. Coaches referee it because we'd have to pay the referees more for them to do it.
We play five minutes (running clock) with one team on offense, regardless of scoring, turnovers, whatever. Then the other team would get their five minutes of offense. I would rather see eight to ten minutes each, but it's better than nothing.
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Post by 3ydsandacloud on Mar 8, 2008 14:44:05 GMT -6
Our MS uses the 5th quarter when we can. I agree that they know when the game is over, but they enjoy playing under the lights in front of their families or staying on the field watching the 5th quarter cheering for their friends. The kids who score TD's or make tackles in the 5th quarter are just as psyched about it as if it happened in the game. The kids who don't get to play much ask every week if we are going to get a 5th quarter, and if we do, they have a little extra enthusiasm for practice that week. Some parents just enjoy seeing their kid get to play, others act as if the 5th qtr is beneath their kid. Our format is coaches officiate, start at the 40 and give each offense 10 plays. Turnovers just spot the ball back at the 40. In my experience it has been a positive and we really try to get other teams to agree to play them. I am always confused when half our opponents bench doesn't see the field during the game, and the coach doesn't want to play a 5th.
We have run them at halftime if we are at home and our opponents are traveling quite a ways. I prefer to run it after the game so I can coach at half though.
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Post by liveblue on Mar 17, 2008 19:34:09 GMT -6
Our conference rules call for at least a 5th quarter. Most of the time we play a half or a full game of continuous clock in the 2nd game. We get about the same amount of plays in as 10 plays defense/ 10 plays offense 5th quarter. This allows those playing in the second game a chance to play a real game. We coach from the sidelines and run in plays just like in the first game. We rotate 2 teams every other series. Having the team huddle up, call the play, and get in the correct formation is the very basics we are trying to teach to every player on the team. We make our players think for themselves. At the 7th grade level, we have a wide variety of players both size-wise and talent-wise. Our goal is to keep the interest level high because eventually the small guys will grow and be the same size as the kids that have already matured. The parents enjoy the game more as well.
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Post by jazzo on Mar 18, 2008 8:08:32 GMT -6
Our middle schools up here play a fifth quarter for minimum play players. If not a fifth quarter, the same two schools will play another "B" game later that week. The 2nd, 3rd, etc. stringers play in that game and the starters still have to attend to watch, plus cheer on their team.
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Post by CoachBorrelli on Mar 21, 2008 17:35:06 GMT -6
We use the 5th Quarter for the Frosh but it's pretty much ruined. During this time the game is over, Refs leave, fans are leaving, coaches want to get outta there.
Youth league has minimum plays to their roster size.
5th Q has become a joke.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 21, 2008 18:56:37 GMT -6
We use the 5th Quarter for the Frosh but it's pretty much ruined. During this time the game is over, Refs leave, fans are leaving, coaches want to get outta there. Youth league has minimum plays to their roster size. 5th Q has become a joke. Reality of how it works out for most. My hands on real life experience as well. IMHO in youth ball coach everyone up, be a great coach and get them into every game no matter what.
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Post by thamiam on Mar 26, 2008 13:34:16 GMT -6
I'm getting ready to coach in a league that has the following rule: Add a fifth (5th) quarter with a ten (10) minute running clock, five (5) offense and five (5) minutes defense to be played during the half-time, and allow Coaches on the field with the players to provide positive guidance and additional coaching/instruction when necessary. With the 5th quarter an additional amount of five (5) minutes will be necessary for a rest period. Fifth quarter may be omitted from any game due to the lack of players. This constitutes quality playtime for the purposes of (the rules) I never even heard of this concept before today, so I'm curious to see what you more experienced coaches think of this type of implementation?
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Post by coachmcgrath on Mar 26, 2008 22:09:12 GMT -6
Our league requires every player to play a full game on either offense or defense. There are no substitutions except for injury. Team sizes have to be smaller... under 22 and usually in the range of 18 to 20... It's easy to monitor because the whole bench has to clear at every change of posession. Can be frustrating, but the teams that do the best are the ones that are able to get their "minimum play" guys to improve the most over the season. Our league has grown to be one of, if not THE largest, youth leagues in the country. Most in the league attribute a good portion of our success to this rule. Kids who play have fun and return the next year. Seen a few guys that started out as minimum play guys turn into monsters after a couple of years... they might not have stuck around if we hadn't been forced to play them. Obviously, this doesn't work at HS. www.fcyfl.org ... click the link for teams and schedules to see get an idea of the size of the league...
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 29, 2008 17:47:23 GMT -6
coachmcgrath---the my home town league (and the one I grew up playing in) has the same rule. Gotta play either O or D.
Question...have you had any problems with coaches "forcing" weaker/lesser players to quit? Simply exposing them to things that cause them to not want to play...and thus allowing a stronger player to now play both ways.
I have seen this happen a few times...the league champ might only have 13 or 14 players at the end of the year, rather than the 17-18 that they (and everyone else) started with...
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Post by davecisar on Mar 29, 2008 22:42:42 GMT -6
Coach 5085,
I know of Pop Warner teams that RUN OFF weaker kids so they dont have to play them the minimum amount of plays. They run their program like a boot camp survivor thing to purposely run off the weaker kids, to win.
Quite distastfull to me anyways., the goal should be to develop a love of the game within the kids. It also sours many on ALL youth football coaches.
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Post by jazzo on Mar 30, 2008 9:24:15 GMT -6
Coach 5085, I know of Pop Warner teams that RUN OFF weaker kids so they dont have to play them the minimum amount of plays. They run their program like a boot camp survivor thing to purposely run off the weaker kids, to win. Quite distastfull to me anyways., the goal should be to develop a love of the game within the kids. It also sours many on ALL youth football coaches. I agree Dave. We had a Jr. Midget team in our League who wiped out everyone on game day, including us. It was like anything you tried they would have an answer for. This was the same team that had all those 13 year older, but lighter kids on their team. Anyway, after the season ended, I found out from their own Association that their Jr. Midget HC had ran kids off the team at the beginning of the season. Apparently, he would just run them all practice until they got bored, tired and quit. He would also treat them inferior and would act like they didn't exist in practice. This was all done so he could have his 13 year older, but lighter elite team. It's upsetting, because coaches like that give Pop Warner and other organizations a bad name. This same coach also got suspended during last season for a game, because he flipped out when a team scored on him. It's funny, because they only allowed one touchdown all season (including regionals) and the team that scored never won a game all season. After they scored he freaked out on the sideline and started screaming at his few second stringers to come off the field. It was near the end of the game and he had like a 28-0 lead before that team scored. He threw all his starters back in and showed zero class. Anyway, yeah we are trying to eliminate those type of folks in our league, but have to start with our own associations first.... We should be developing the kid's skills and help increase their self-esteem in life in general. If your up by four touchdowns, what's wrong with letting your MPP's play more???
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Post by davecisar on Mar 30, 2008 12:51:10 GMT -6
A shame and what gives youth football a bad name. The Older-lighter thing is great in concept but gets abused by fellas like this
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 30, 2008 13:06:15 GMT -6
Our league outlawed the older-lighter rule about 5 years because it was getting abused like this. One team from another city actually had 20 older-lighters on a team of 26. That doesn't happen by accident. Not having older-lighters really hurts us when we play out of conference in post season tournaments, but that's a small price to pay for not having to deal with the abuse of that rule.
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Post by raiderpirates on Mar 31, 2008 7:07:37 GMT -6
Certain weight limits apply to backs and quarterbacks on offense. Not a pure MPP league in terms of getting to start, etc.
The games I was fortunate to be calling the plays everyone played in last year. We scored the most points for the regular season and our youngest or least repped played the 4th quarter on defense and ran plays in for offense to our backup HB and QB. The team we beat was undefeated coming into the game.
The league doesn't consistently apply the weight or age rules. My first year as a HC two players had to leave my team that the prior coach was allowed to keep on his word they were playing age. One was technically old enough to play, they amended the rule to prevent him after we started 2-0 and the league still let a player off the team I now coach(and two other teams with kids old as him or older) play, for being relatives of other coaches. The oldest player was too old the year prior and allowed to play for the other coach's word on it and never hassled. He told me he was age, going off what the prior coach said, I told him he could not QB or be a RB or get handoffs on the weight rule. He played TE and OLB quite well and helped win a game against the defending league winners before leaving, by tackling their over aged star who went on to play at middle school to finish his season. That player was good too, he told me after a loss to us"I'm going on to the 8th grade team." He got my vote of confidence, ran with a lot of heart, I asked him to do so and he was mad about losing to us(we didn't have a win in two years until I took over). He was on the HS team last year, must have been older than the coaches and league commish would admit. Their team had a guy who went from the league to the HS team, so he skipped the middle school/Jr.High threshold for some reason, and was allowed to play in the league.
My two players, one was old enough to play off the rules starting the season. Certain teams wanted a shot at the payment pool and changed the age threshold(half of the 50 to register a player is won by the winning coach). The other proved he could take a supporting role and be coachable, instead of being the team star. It's hard to hold a player's wanting a chance against him, that's what the league was for and every kid deserves that. Hard as he worked to apply himself to the less glamorous jobs that included springing our longest TD runs by blocking and handling the point on D, that's enough to show he can answer the challenge at the next level. The extent to which grades may play in, or other items, is up to him for a lot of it. The HS basketball assistant was a former CC head coach and he may be able to mentor the kid for his favorite sport of hoops, that's my hope for Pravis.
It's not about stopping players from participating,it's about tackling them when they play, to me. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Small players aren't every down guys for us, they usually start on special teams and situational defense first, though we lost the title game because of a score on a kickoff resulting from such. Our smallest player led the team in forced turnovers in the first year, AJ would just latch onto the football because it was eye level for him and that made him play larger. Our smallest player this year started and won a football as the "most improved player" at the year's end pizza party.
Nobody's going to tell them at HS "they're too big, don't worry about tackling them." They'll likely say "that's a big player you had better stop." These other teams keep adding a ton of players for one year at the peak of the age curve. Mostly guys who didn't make the cut to start every down in middle school decide to try the entry league out after the fact.
We'll see how it goes, my players could have won out last time but we had coaches getting too pretty with play selection in the major games. This year it's a returning OL(four or five starters) and we're looking to be about hoping the mid level kids have developed enough at skill.
We're supposed to have mandatory age/grade and weight rules for certain skill tasks applied. Let's see how 'the Cardinal Rules' change this year. On the whole the league had to scale down its size in terms of teams, to four local teams, from six. We still has six teams overall, and faced some team twice instead for the regular season. The scale down fattened rosters so no teams had forfeits.
Our practices ran so many reps on half lines. Three opposing teams had full squads. We prefer to play the smaller teams, their guys play both sides and have deeper chemistry. The bigger teams may be able to wear you down more, but they lose something with knowing one another less.
We'll have the size this time, I'm hoping Freddie returns from moving to the college town(Olympic speed and he blocked two players at one on our 2 on 2 drills from the TE practice reps). Then we'd have two TE with the unique ability to outrun any foe, make tough crossing catches, and the ability to block a player long enough to get the runner free at point and still make a key block at the next level off the same play.
Of course he'd probably move to halfback(or my preference for him at fullback if he goes to the backfield)....
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Post by raiderpirates on Mar 31, 2008 7:14:18 GMT -6
As for 5th quarter, that would be impossible here, too many back to back games, way too much heat.
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Post by coachdoug on Mar 31, 2008 11:09:20 GMT -6
Certain weight limits apply to backs and quarterbacks on offense. Not a pure MPP league in terms of getting to start, etc. The games I was fortunate to be calling the plays everyone played in last year. We scored the most points for the regular season and our youngest or least repped played the 4th quarter on defense and ran plays in for offense to our backup HB and QB. The team we beat was undefeated coming into the game. The league doesn't consistently apply the weight or age rules. My first year as a HC two players had to leave my team that the prior coach was allowed to keep on his word they were playing age. One was technically old enough to play, they amended the rule to prevent him after we started 2-0 and the league still let a player off the team I now coach(and two other teams with kids old as him or older) play, for being relatives of other coaches. The oldest player was too old the year prior and allowed to play for the other coach's word on it and never hassled. He told me he was age, going off what the prior coach said, I told him he could not QB or be a RB or get handoffs on the weight rule. He played TE and OLB quite well and helped win a game against the defending league winners before leaving, by tackling their over aged star who went on to play at middle school to finish his season. That player was good too, he told me after a loss to us"I'm going on to the 8th grade team." He got my vote of confidence, ran with a lot of heart, I asked him to do so and he was mad about losing to us(we didn't have a win in two years until I took over). He was on the HS team last year, must have been older than the coaches and league commish would admit. Their team had a guy who went from the league to the HS team, so he skipped the middle school/Jr.High threshold for some reason, and was allowed to play in the league. My two players, one was old enough to play off the rules starting the season. Certain teams wanted a shot at the payment pool and changed the age threshold(half of the 50 to register a player is won by the winning coach). The other proved he could take a supporting role and be coachable, instead of being the team star. It's hard to hold a player's wanting a chance against him, that's what the league was for and every kid deserves that. Hard as he worked to apply himself to the less glamorous jobs that included springing our longest TD runs by blocking and handling the point on D, that's enough to show he can answer the challenge at the next level. The extent to which grades may play in, or other items, is up to him for a lot of it. The HS basketball assistant was a former CC head coach and he may be able to mentor the kid for his favorite sport of hoops, that's my hope for Pravis. It's not about stopping players from participating,it's about tackling them when they play, to me. The bigger they are, the harder they fall. Small players aren't every down guys for us, they usually start on special teams and situational defense first, though we lost the title game because of a score on a kickoff resulting from such. Our smallest player led the team in forced turnovers in the first year, AJ would just latch onto the football because it was eye level for him and that made him play larger. Our smallest player this year started and won a football as the "most improved player" at the year's end pizza party. Nobody's going to tell them at HS "they're too big, don't worry about tackling them." They'll likely say "that's a big player you had better stop." These other teams keep adding a ton of players for one year at the peak of the age curve. Mostly guys who didn't make the cut to start every down in middle school decide to try the entry league out after the fact. We'll see how it goes, my players could have won out last time but we had coaches getting too pretty with play selection in the major games. This year it's a returning OL(four or five starters) and we're looking to be about hoping the mid level kids have developed enough at skill. We're supposed to have mandatory age/grade and weight rules for certain skill tasks applied. Let's see how 'the Cardinal Rules' change this year. On the whole the league had to scale down its size in terms of teams, to four local teams, from six. We still has six teams overall, and faced some team twice instead for the regular season. The scale down fattened rosters so no teams had forfeits. Our practices ran so many reps on half lines. Three opposing teams had full squads. We prefer to play the smaller teams, their guys play both sides and have deeper chemistry. The bigger teams may be able to wear you down more, but they lose something with knowing one another less. We'll have the size this time, I'm hoping Freddie returns from moving to the college town(Olympic speed and he blocked two players at one on our 2 on 2 drills from the TE practice reps). Then we'd have two TE with the unique ability to outrun any foe, make tough crossing catches, and the ability to block a player long enough to get the runner free at point and still make a key block at the next level off the same play. Of course he'd probably move to halfback(or my preference for him at fullback if he goes to the backfield).... While it is difficult to figure out a lot of what you're saying in your post, one thing is crystal clear - YOU NEED TO FIND A NEW LEAGUE TO COACH IN RIGHT NOW. Holy smokes - rampant disregard for age and weight restrictions? Are you kidding? This is a major lawsuit waiting to happen. All you need is one kid to get badly hurt (think spinal cord injury) by an overage player. When the lawyers start asking quesitons and find out that rules about age and weight are routinely disregarded, EVERYONE (including league commissioners, administrators, and COACHES) is going to get sued and you are all going to lose. The judgment will be in the millions. It may not happen this year. It may not happen next year. Who knows, maybe it will never happen, but why would anyone in their right mind take that chance. Not to mention the chance your entire league is taking with these kids' safety (which is exactly why you should and will lose in court). From what you're saying it sounds like a corrupt league from top to bottom. Get out now.
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Post by davecisar on Mar 31, 2008 12:34:20 GMT -6
Ive talked to 100s of youth football coaches from 100s of leagues around the country and Ive never heard of such disregard for the "rules" . It seems silly to even call them rules, since they are not adhered to. Coach Doug, I was thinking the exact same thing.
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Post by jazzo on Apr 1, 2008 11:42:25 GMT -6
raiderpirates, I agree with what Doug and Dave are saying regarding this. What area of the country do you coach in? Is it a newer league? It sounds like the folks there make up or modify the rules as they go. It's usually to benefit someone to get that winning advantage....
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Post by coachbrexrode on Sept 18, 2008 14:33:14 GMT -6
Coach
We used this for years. After the game is over. You get together with the other coaches and officiate a predetermined amount of time or plays. It sometimes is the only play time some kids will ever get. It is also a time to give those second and third string kids an opportunity to show their stuff against a real opponent. Kids love it and it will help keep some parents off your back. I would only use it for 9th graders.
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