bones72
Probationary Member
Posts: 14
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Post by bones72 on Sept 26, 2007 5:00:45 GMT -6
Got reamed out by another coach for "gamesmanship" not sportmanship for running a "there's too many of us, get off the field play" to my female player. It was fun, and didn't score. But it does upset me that another coach really ripped into me for that. This is 8-10 yr ball. In this play, the QB yells that there are too many of us, So and so, leave, after he has called set, and players are set, she just flies to the sideline, he hits her with a quick out pattern. It was pretty funny to watch the CB's face. So answer me, Is this ethical?
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Sept 26, 2007 5:15:20 GMT -6
Coach: There is, and always has been, a place for deception in football. Some deception is considered so far outside the bounds of sportsmanship (and too likely to allow for injury) that it has been banned by the (NFHS) rules. This includes an entire class of plays designed to lull the defense into thinking the snap of the ball is not imminent: NFHS - Illegal.
UNFAIR ACT 9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where's the tee?” A2 replies, “I'll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.
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bones72
Probationary Member
Posts: 14
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Post by bones72 on Sept 26, 2007 9:26:45 GMT -6
Then I was in the wrong. Mea culpa.
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Post by saintrad on Oct 5, 2007 15:56:07 GMT -6
actually you werent since the football was never used in the decoy.. the above rule relates specifically to "props" being the basis for the deception.
Plus, the people that usually scream the loudest have the least undertanding of the rules or only know the rules from watching TV
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Post by davecisar on Oct 5, 2007 17:58:41 GMT -6
That exact scenario is played out in th Federatrion Rule book. It is illegal. I like trick plays too but run just 1-2 per year, not of the type you suggested. We do the flap jack pass or snap through the Qbs legs etc, not questionable stuff.
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bones72
Probationary Member
Posts: 14
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Post by bones72 on Oct 5, 2007 20:38:12 GMT -6
O.K. I GET THE PICTURE! I HAVE STOPPED EVEN THINKING ABOUT 'TRICK PLAYS'. I HAVE FLAGELLATED MYSELF AND KNELT IN SUBMISSION. I HAVE NOT RUN ANY 'TRICK PLAYS' SINCE tedseay POSTED THE RULES. HOWEVER, WE ARE UNDEFEATED.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 6, 2007 5:30:40 GMT -6
Plus, the people that usually scream the loudest have the least undertanding of the rules or only know the rules from watching TV That is very true. Im the quietest guy on the field on game days, but the official knows that if I were to say something it would be worth listening to. I with I had a dollar for every "Thats was uncatchable" or "He didnt touch him (off sides)". Silly parents dont know the difference between NFL< College or High School rules and should just keep their mouths shut. Unfortunately same goes for a handful of youth coaches.
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Post by eickst on Oct 6, 2007 7:03:20 GMT -6
What about putting the ball underneath your jersey?
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bones72
Probationary Member
Posts: 14
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Post by bones72 on Oct 6, 2007 21:14:31 GMT -6
Read my latest post, what's happening makes me want to walk away from team sports altogether.
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Post by davecisar on Oct 6, 2007 21:18:22 GMT -6
What about putting the ball underneath your jersey? Thats has been illegal since 1905 or so. Sheesh Only allowable in backyard football with snow if you are under 10 LOL>
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
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Post by tedseay on Oct 7, 2007 6:02:48 GMT -6
actually you werent since the football was never used in the decoy.. the above rule relates specifically to "props" being the basis for the deception. Nope. The NCAA rules on this situation ban both the use of props and the use of (alleged) substitutions to deceive the other team. The NFHS rule, OTOH, explicitly mentions "an act which in the opinion of the Referee tends to make a travesty of the game." bones: Not piling on here at all -- just clarifying for others' sake. And no need to toss the baby out with the bathwater: ...or run the flea flicker! No reason not to run "specials" -- they're fun to practice and can give your kids a real boost during a game. Just stay within the rules and the spirit of the game, and you'll be teaching a life lesson at the same time...
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Post by wingt74 on Oct 19, 2007 7:18:12 GMT -6
Got reamed out by another coach for "gamesmanship" not sportmanship for running a "there's too many of us, get off the field play" to my female player. It was fun, and didn't score. But it does upset me that another coach really ripped into me for that. This is 8-10 yr ball. In this play, the QB yells that there are too many of us, So and so, leave, after he has called set, and players are set, she just flies to the sideline, he hits her with a quick out pattern. It was pretty funny to watch the CB's face. So answer me, Is this ethical? no, and if it's not against the rules, it should be..
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Post by oguru on Nov 14, 2007 13:39:07 GMT -6
I am a youth football official and this play was ran once when I refereed. I had two flags on the play. First was a dead ball foul prior to the snap, which was 15 yards, the second was a 1 yard unsportsmnalike conduct penalty on the bench. As I feel this play is totally unethical no matter what level of play. After we marched off 30 yards in penalties, the head coach got another unsportsmnalike penalty and found himself getting in his car leaving the park.
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mkool65
Probationary Member
Posts: 8
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Post by mkool65 on Nov 15, 2007 20:50:00 GMT -6
I am a youth football official and this play was ran once when I refereed. I had two flags on the play. First was a dead ball foul prior to the snap, which was 15 yards, the second was a 1 yard unsportsmnalike conduct penalty on the bench. As I feel this play is totally unethical no matter what level of play. After we marched off 30 yards in penalties, the head coach got another unsportsmnalike penalty and found himself getting in his car leaving the park. That is completely ridiculous for a youth coach to have that kind of reaction. I have no problem with trick plays but I do have a serious problem with coaches not being able to set a good example for the kids. If you are angry with a call handle it like an adult.
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Post by lochness on Nov 21, 2007 7:11:49 GMT -6
The only kinds of "trick" plays we have ever run have been a "Reverse Pass" off of a base Reverse that we usually run 2-4 times per game and a "Flea Flicker" off of our base run play.
I'm not a big fan of the trick play. To me, it's too much of a momentum killer and/or embarassment if they fail. I'd much rather spend my creative juices trying to outflank someone or create good blocking schemes against specific fronts.
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Post by theprez98 on Nov 21, 2007 7:20:50 GMT -6
we've run a HB pass, double reverse, and hook and ladder. we also had a QB throwback in the playbook, but didn't use it.
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Post by davecisar on Nov 21, 2007 8:28:12 GMT -6
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Post by dubber on Nov 21, 2007 12:13:19 GMT -6
flap jack is ridiculous! love that play!
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Post by davecisar on Nov 21, 2007 18:59:21 GMT -6
flap jack is ridiculous! love that play! It is totally, we dont run it to score, or trick anyone but just as a late season goof to keep the kids interested. As a youth coach thats a good part of my job description LOL.
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Post by davecisar on Nov 21, 2007 19:00:47 GMT -6
flap jack is ridiculous! love that play! ;D
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Post by dubber on Nov 27, 2007 10:17:26 GMT -6
flap jack is ridiculous! love that play! ;D yeah, I watched it three times to make sure I saw what I saw.........kids seemed like they got more excited over that play than any other long TD run they had
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Post by cmow5 on Nov 30, 2007 1:05:17 GMT -6
1:43 #12 showed more hustle then my team showed all year. ;D
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Post by coachdoug on Jan 31, 2008 1:01:05 GMT -6
Personally, I am a big believer in gadget plays. I've never run a "get off the field" or "we have the wrong ball" play, and probably never will, but I think reverses, flea flickers, option passes, etc should be part of any team's aresenal. I generally run an average of one gadget play per game (probably a little less when we're dominant). Many of my teams over the years have been blessed with a precipitous lack of speed , which makes having a few home run plays absolutely essential. If you run a sweep, off-tackle, counter, etc. and do everything right and get your RB into the secondary, if you have a stud, fast RB, it's probably a TD (or at least a long gain), but if you have slow, non-athletic RBs, they get caught by DBs and LBs after a 5-10 yard gain. So, that means, in order to score you have to drive the ball down the field getting several first downs. Let me demonstrate statistically how difficult that is. I have charted stats on a couple hundred youth games over the years. Even in blowouts, it is rare for any team to get more than 10-12 first downs in a game. An average game is about 8 possessions per team. Turnovers and quick scores can mean a few more possesions, but overall that averages out to the best teams only getting first downs about 60-70% of the time. Even if you assume that a team is way above average and gets first downs 80% of the time, it will be very difficult for them to score without any big plays, what I call "X" plays (any play over 15 or so yards, thereby reducing the number of first downs needed to score). Let's say a drive begins on a team's own 30. If that team just barely gets first downs (10.5 to 11 yards per first down), they will need 6 first downs to score. If you do the math, you'll see that this team has only a 26% chance of scoring (and that assuming a 100% chance of scoring from 1st and goal). Now, if the team they are playing is decent, that first down rate is realistically going to be more like 50% at best, then the probability of scoring from that far out is only 1.6%. Therefore, if you want to score more than once in a while, you have to have some X plays. My experience bears this out - even the best youth teams typically only have one or two real sustained drives (by that I mean a 10+ play drive with 5+ first downs) in an entire season. Even in the NFL, the typical drive is like 65 yards in 8 plays. I don't have any stats on it, but I'll bet that the majority of NFL scoring drives of over 50 yards involve at least one play of over 15 yards and probably over 20 yards. Furthermore, if you are getting 3-5 yards per play and just barely getting first downs, you have to be almost perfect. Any mistake can derail a drive. A false start, hold, fumbled snap, botched assignment leading to a no gain or a loss, or even a stumble by the RB can all effectively kill a drive for a team like this. Even if your kids are perfect, we've all seen officials call penalties the wrong way - the defensive line encroaches into the neutral zone and then your offensive lineman flinches and the penalty gets called on the offense. Your guys did nothing wrong, but your drive is still dead. For speedy, athletic teams this is no big deal - you just run your regular plays and if your studs break a tackle or get a block and get into the secondary 4-5 times a game, you've got a good chance of scoring enough points to win. However, for less athletic teams, or when facing an equally or more athletic team even if your team is athletic, it helps to use deception or trickery, etc to manufacture some X plays. One of my best X plays I would not consider a gadget play at all. We run a roll right screen left that scores a TD probably about 50% of the times we've run it. You can only run it once or twice a game, and it gets more difficult as you get scouted, but once we run a few roll out plays succesfully, even if they know we run it, the whole defense will flow towards the roll out and then I get my best athlete the ball on the other side of the field with 3 lead blockers - even if the Will or the S or the DE reads it, usually one or more of the blockers will take him out and the RB has smooth sailing. Likewise, I've used double passes, halfback option passes, reverses, reverse passes, hook & ladders, etc. to create big plays - plays that are designed to score, or at least gain 25 or more yards if they are executed properly - not just 5 yards or so like most typical plays. I mostly run off-tackle, some counters, sweeps, traps, play-action passes, and short passes, but an occasional gadget play will loosen up the defense and allow you to "steal" a touchdown that you might never have gotten otherwise. One final benefit - the kids love these plays, so it keeps them engaged.
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Post by davecisar on Jan 31, 2008 5:49:38 GMT -6
((One final benefit - the kids love these plays, so it keeps them engaged.))
Thats the only reason we start running them midseason, 1 per game.
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de58
Freshmen Member
Posts: 67
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Post by de58 on Feb 5, 2008 9:19:46 GMT -6
If you think trick plays are ethical, go tell us yours on the thread I created.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 9:50:28 GMT -6
Coach: There is, and always has been, a place for deception in football. Some deception is considered so far outside the bounds of sportsmanship (and too likely to allow for injury) that it has been banned by the (NFHS) rules. This includes an entire class of plays designed to lull the defense into thinking the snap of the ball is not imminent: NFHS - Illegal.
UNFAIR ACT 9.9.3 SITUATION B: From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where's the tee?” A2 replies, “I'll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team's sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
RULING: Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal. Or If Ted says so then Damnit, it's probably right......= ; )
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 9:58:44 GMT -6
Boy he would've had a field day with my team, Tell that coach to take a hike, hell all I run is deceptive stuff. Provided noone outside the players on the field were involved the play is legal, and he should just shut up and eat it. We sometimes have a flanker stand along our sideline, with his arms crossed, we tell him to blend in with the crowd, then when they dont cover him we hit him with a hitch.
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Post by coachdoug on Jun 20, 2008 18:37:52 GMT -6
Boy he would've had a field day with my team, Tell that coach to take a hike, hell all I run is deceptive stuff. Provided noone outside the players on the field were involved the play is legal, and he should just shut up and eat it. We sometimes have a flanker stand along our sideline, with his arms crossed, we tell him to blend in with the crowd, then when they dont cover him we hit him with a hitch. Not sure who you are responding to, but the issue isn't whether any players not on the field are involved. As the quote from the rule book (actually, I believe that quote is from the case book) stated, any "actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn't imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal." It is not the opinion of any particular coach on this forum - it is what the rule is, per the NFHS. The play is illegal, period. Your play where you have a flanker stand by the sideline with his arms crossed is legal only if that player came onto the field past the 9-yard hashes (i.e. at the top of the numbers) after the ball was marked ready for play, then went towards the sideline. If he simply stepped onto the field from sideline, it is unquestionably illegal.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2008 13:28:05 GMT -6
I guess I read that wrong, my bad .....As for our trick play, no he is on the field already, we run hurry up no huddle, so he just kinda gets lost during the previous play...but this is interesting, is yelling ball, or fumble during a play illegal??/because we do that
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Post by coachdoug on Jun 22, 2008 22:50:49 GMT -6
I guess I read that wrong, my bad .....As for our trick play, no he is on the field already, we run hurry up no huddle, so he just kinda gets lost during the previous play...but this is interesting, is yelling ball, or fumble during a play illegal??/because we do that WRT your trick play - even if he is on the field already, he has to be inside the 9-yd hashes (i.e. top of the numbers) after the ball has been marked ready for play or it is either illegal substitution or illegal participation (I'd have to look it to tell you which it is). You can't just hang out by the sideline after the previous play is over. I'm not sure about yelling "ball" or "fumble" during a play if there isn't actually a loose ball. I wouldn't do it, for no other reason than because it seems like a waste of time when I could be instructing my players to become better football players. It also just isn't good sportsmanship. I know yelling out things that mimic the offense's cadence is illegal under the "unsportsmanlike conduct" rules - I suspect this situation would fall into the same category. I'm not even sure what benefit you would get from it - wouldn't your own team get more confused than the offense anyway??
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