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Post by tippecanoe41 on Aug 24, 2024 6:10:02 GMT -6
I will say I have never been in a spread system. Don't know all the other workings other than playing defense against them. Anyway, I may be wrong to feel this way, but I just get physically ill when I see a 1A team with 21 players on the entire team, playing in a conference with bigger 2A and 3A schools continuously having coaches that insist on running the spread offense. Am I right that the spread is about getting mismatches and using athleticism? Just seems like any of the upside of "spreading out the D" is small considering I just don't think there is a lot of room for improvement. I just know I've seen teams like this over the years when we were down and I thought, wow, if they had just lined up in Pro-I, I don't think we would have stopped them. Anyway, it's just up for discussion. I might be dumb.
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Post by blb on Aug 24, 2024 6:40:12 GMT -6
There is a belief among some coaches that kids won't come out unless you are running a Spread offense, especially the "athletes." Ergo running a Spread is a way to get numbers up.
Further I imagine some small-school coaches have convinced themselves the only way to compete with bigger schools-teams is to "spread 'em out" and throw it around.
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Post by cqmiller on Aug 24, 2024 6:43:20 GMT -6
If you don't have the better athletes... why spread it out? How much "quarterback" does your QB know? He has to make A LOT of decisions in the spread. Parents are to blame for it too. They think that going 0-10 in the spread is better for their kid than lining up in the WingT and winning 5 or 6 games by controlling the clock. Here are our stats for our first 2 games... lost week 1 to the state runner-up with 200 yards rushing but ended 0-4 in the redzone because of stupid mistakes. Won week 2 by going 22 personnel and running Iso 16 times in the 2nd half. Playtype by Offensive Formation Self-Scout W01-W02Tag by Offensive Play by Playtype Self-Scout W01-W02 |
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Post by 44special on Aug 24, 2024 7:31:51 GMT -6
there is nothing worse than a bad spread team. coached against many of them.
coaches tend to be very trendy.
i always found this to be surprising, but then i grew up in the 60's and hs in the 70's with short hair, so i guess i'm not that way myself.
i figured that, being leaders, coaches would be smarter than that (and some are), but i guess not.
but it's not just coaches. it's humanity in general.
still don't understand it.
but i'm approaching 70 and still trying to figure out how to be human, so there's that.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 24, 2024 7:34:32 GMT -6
Monkey see, monkey do.
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Post by blockandtackle on Aug 24, 2024 7:51:37 GMT -6
There is a belief among some coaches that kids won't come out unless you are running a Spread offense, especially the "athletes." Ergo running a Spread is a way to get numbers up. Further I imagine some small-school coaches have convinced themselves the only way to compete with bigger schools-teams is to "spread 'em out" and throw it around. I also think that, for many coaches under about 35-40 years old, all they know is “Spread.” Ever try talking to one of them about Wing T or option football? Some have ears that perk up out of curiosity, but a fair amount I’ve worked with and talked to will tell you they simply hate those “outdated” styles of offense and have no interest in learning and running them with their own teams. I also still hear a lot of the “we’re too small to block anybody up front, so we have to spread everybody out.”. What they really mean is that their OL sucks and they don’t know how to fix it, so they hope a spread offense means they can find ways to score without blocking people. |
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Post by blockandtackle on Aug 24, 2024 7:56:02 GMT -6
there is nothing worse than a bad spread team. coached against many of them. coaches tend to be very trendy. i always found this to be surprising, but then i grew up in the 60's and hs in the 70's with short hair, so i guess i'm not that way myself. i figured that, being leaders, coaches would be smarter than that (and some are), but i guess not. but it's not just coaches. it's humanity in general. still don't understand it. but i'm approaching 70 and still trying to figure out how to be human, so there's that. I have long hair (grew it out when i turned 40 and couldn’t get a haircut due to COVID) and I am still not entirely sure how putting some poor HS kid out there to go 10-45 for 30 yards with 6 sacks and 5 turnovers is more “fun, exciting, and modern” than running the ball and not handing your opponent a blowout win by halftime… |
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Post by blb on Aug 24, 2024 11:08:27 GMT -6
There is a belief among some coaches that kids won't come out unless you are running a Spread offense, especially the "athletes." Ergo running a Spread is a way to get numbers up. Further I imagine some small-school coaches have convinced themselves the only way to compete with bigger schools-teams is to "spread 'em out" and throw it around. I also think that, for many coaches under about 35-40 years old, all they know is “Spread.” Ever try talking to one of them about Wing T or option football? Some have ears that perk up out of curiosity, but a fair amount I’ve worked with and talked to will tell you they simply hate those “outdated” styles of offense and have no interest in learning and running them with their own teams. I also still hear a lot of the “we’re too small to block anybody up front, so we have to spread everybody out.”. What they really mean is that their OL sucks and they don’t know how to fix it, so they hope a spread offense means they can find ways to score without blocking people. A lot of Spread coaches seem to believe that all they have to teach OL is "Get run over slowly." Of course this doesn't help them much when they are trying to prepare their Defense for an Offense that can-does run the ball effectively. |
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Post by tripsclosed on Aug 24, 2024 12:17:26 GMT -6
There is a belief among some coaches that kids won't come out unless you are running a Spread offense, especially the "athletes." Ergo running a Spread is a way to get numbers up. Further I imagine some small-school coaches have convinced themselves the only way to compete with bigger schools-teams is to "spread 'em out" and throw it around. I also think that, for many coaches under about 35-40 years old, all they know is “Spread.” Ever try talking to one of them about Wing T or option football? Some have ears that perk up out of curiosity, but a fair amount I’ve worked with and talked to will tell you they simply hate those “outdated” styles of offense and have no interest in learning and running them with their own teams. I also still hear a lot of the “we’re too small to block anybody up front, so we have to spread everybody out.”. What they really mean is that their OL sucks and they don’t know how to fix it, so they hope a spread offense means they can find ways to score without blocking people. And at the end of the day, even if they are too small on the OL, I still think that spread to run, spread option, or spread to pass doesn't help with that. Lol. If you are undersized up front, in my view, that's all the more reason to pack everyone into the classic phone booth situation, and get double teams. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Aug 24, 2024 13:21:50 GMT -6
I will say I have never been in a spread system. Don't know all the other workings other than playing defense against them. Anyway, I may be wrong to feel this way, but I just get physically ill when I see a 1A team with 21 players on the entire team, playing in a conference with bigger 2A and 3A schools continuously having coaches that insist on running the spread offense. Am I right that the spread is about getting mismatches and using athleticism? Just seems like any of the upside of "spreading out the D" is small considering I just don't think there is a lot of room for improvement. I just know I've seen teams like this over the years when we were down and I thought, wow, if they had just lined up in Pro-I, I don't think we would have stopped them. Anyway, it's just up for discussion. I might be dumb. 1- if it is not 'spread' it is not modern football 2- if you run something else you better be REALLY successful 3- if you run something else, you better be able have something else that will keep kids from transferring 4- you better work in a community that values more traditional things like "it's not about me, but about we" 5- work in a community that is not driven about getting the schollies This is what coaches in the 21st century are up against. Of course since the invention of dirt we have been up against individuals that have double digit IQs. |
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Post by blb on Aug 24, 2024 14:12:10 GMT -6
Some of the reasons I'm enjoying NFL more these days is they actually huddle, QB goes under C some of the time, and they try to run the ball once in awhile.
I don't pay any attention to the "business side" of it. Besides with NIL and Transfer Portal CFB has become the same thing.
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vasa
Probationary Member
Posts: 10
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Post by vasa on Aug 24, 2024 14:27:46 GMT -6
Some of the reasons I'm actually enjoying NFL more these days is they actually huddle, QB goes under C some of the time, and they try to run the ball once in awhile. I don't pay any attention to the "business side" of it. Besides with NIL and Transfer Portal CFB has become the same thing. I’m seeing quite a bit of 2 backs and 1 tight end. It’s refreshing where college is so much gun 1 back 1 tight. |
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Post by CS on Aug 24, 2024 14:55:03 GMT -6
So me and a guy I work with were having a discussion about this the other day.
Sh!t program gets good coach that runs a ball control offense and starts seeing some success and competing. After a few years the fans start to forget they were sh!t and wondering why they aren’t “getting to the next level.”
Admin runs off dinosaur coach and brings in flash and dash. Program goes back to sh!t and the rotation of “modern” coaches starts. Eventually they make it back to a dinosaur and the cycle continues.
It’s the circle of life
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Post by bigugly55 on Aug 24, 2024 21:31:17 GMT -6
Nothing worse than being an OL coach for a bad RPO spread team where it doesn't fit your players at all and OC is super hardcore about it and knows zero about OL play.
That was the most miserable season of my life. Switched to a hybrid wing T in 22 and went from 1 win in 21 to 8 in 22 and 9 in 23 with the same players. We had pretty good buy in form the players, but there are definitely a few vocal parents that would rather us go back to sucking and spread it out and throw it 30 times a game.
It's all about fit, and while we have a couple of decent skill guys our school is not conducive to a spread offense as we are one the least athletic teams in our league. We have smart, tough kids though and the wing T is a perfect fit and the OC and I have both spent a lot of time in the Wing at other places so it's what we know best as well.
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Post by Defcord on Aug 25, 2024 3:43:50 GMT -6
The spread isn’t the devil. It’s also not a miracle cure.
How you play is so much more important than what you play.
I’ll take a good spread coach over a shittty wing t coach if I’m a small school AD and vice versa. That being said if candidates had equal coaching abilities I’d take the wing t guy.
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 25, 2024 6:42:28 GMT -6
A lot of Spread coaches seem to believe that all they have to teach OL is "Get run over slowly." Of course this doesn't help them much when they are trying to prepare their Defense for an Offense that can-does run the ball effectively. A lot of spread coaches are pissed they have to "put 5 fat non athletic guys" on the field. That's a direct quote from a spread guy that was clueless as to what he was doing, he just had great talent. Heard it a clinic talk he was giving and I walked out of the room. A couple years later I had the opportunity to beat his brains in. |
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Post by larrymoe on Aug 25, 2024 6:44:32 GMT -6
Of course since the invention of dirt we have been up against individuals that have double digit IQs. A lot of the coaching world only have 2 digits next their IQ points too. |
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Post by CS on Aug 25, 2024 6:55:18 GMT -6
The spread isn’t the devil. It’s also not a miracle cure. How you play is so much more important than what you play. I’ll take a good spread coach over a shittty wing t coach if I’m a small school AD and vice versa. That being said if candidates had equal coaching abilities I’d take the wing t guy. I don’t think it’s the devil at all. There are some very smart spread guys who know what they’re doing. There are bad coaches that run ball control offenses and it looks like sh!t. However, the spread being the “in thing” attracts more of those coaches and most importantly gives them opportunities to run sh!t offenses BECAUSE they’re in the gun |
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Post by realdawg on Aug 25, 2024 7:58:11 GMT -6
Happened to a buddy of mine. Took over a bad program. Put in a ball control O and a simple sound D. They didn’t win a lot but. Stayed relatively competitive. And won a couple games. They ran him off. Brought in new spread guy. He went 0-10. And this year they have 14 players out for football. So me and a guy I work with were having a discussion about this the other day. Sh!t program gets good coach that runs a ball control offense and starts seeing some success and competing. After a few years the fans start to forget they were sh!t and wondering why they aren’t “getting to the next level.” Admin runs off dinosaur coach and brings in flash and dash. Program goes back to sh!t and the rotation of “modern” coaches starts. Eventually they make it back to a dinosaur and the cycle continues. It’s the circle of life |
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Post by 44special on Aug 25, 2024 8:09:39 GMT -6
Some of the reasons I'm enjoying NFL more these days is they actually huddle, QB goes under C some of the time, and they try to run the ball once in awhile. I don't pay any attention to the "business side" of it. Besides with NIL and Transfer Portal CFB has become the same thing. agreed. |
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Post by CS on Aug 25, 2024 8:45:23 GMT -6
Happened to a buddy of mine. Took over a bad program. Put in a ball control O and a simple sound D. They didn’t win a lot but. Stayed relatively competitive. And won a couple games. They ran him off. Brought in new spread guy. He went 0-10. And this year they have 14 players out for football. So me and a guy I work with were having a discussion about this the other day. Sh!t program gets good coach that runs a ball control offense and starts seeing some success and competing. After a few years the fans start to forget they were sh!t and wondering why they aren’t “getting to the next level.” Admin runs off dinosaur coach and brings in flash and dash. Program goes back to sh!t and the rotation of “modern” coaches starts. Eventually they make it back to a dinosaur and the cycle continues. It’s the circle of life That’s the big thing. The kids (for the most part) don’t care what you do as long as they feel they can win and are getting better. The parents are the majority of the problem. I see it just with my daughter’s little softball team. It’s crazy Best job is the school for orphans |
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Post by silkyice on Aug 25, 2024 8:49:40 GMT -6
People will complain no matter what. If you can’t handle the “not modern” critique do this:
Just be in the gun and base out of 12p. Run power football. Throw some regular route concepts if you can. PAP if you can’t. Just use words like spread and RPO. The fans won’t know the difference.
Or, grow a pair, and run what you want.
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Post by agap on Aug 25, 2024 9:43:12 GMT -6
I coached at a school that went 1-8 running spread. We then started running the Power-T and went 3-6, 0-5 (COVID season), and 1-8. Running a different offense doesn’t mean you’re going to win more games when the players don’t get in the weight room either way. For the record, I would run Wing-T if I had the choice because that’s what I learned early on coaching so I’m not trying to push a spread offense.
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Post by bigugly55 on Aug 25, 2024 10:03:40 GMT -6
The spread isn’t the devil. It’s also not a miracle cure. How you play is so much more important than what you play. I’ll take a good spread coach over a shittty wing t coach if I’m a small school AD and vice versa. That being said if candidates had equal coaching abilities I’d take the wing t guy. I don’t think it’s the devil at all. There are some very smart spread guys who know what they’re doing. There are bad coaches that run ball control offenses and it looks like sh!t. However, the spread being the “in thing” attracts more of those coaches and most importantly gives them opportunities to run sh!t offenses BECAUSE they’re in the gun Yeah nobody is saying it's the devil. I'm an OL guy and I prefer a physical gap scheme style of offense with some misdirection mixed in. Good coaches adapt to their talent. My wing T mentor ended up taking a job at a school that had a lot more talent than we had to work with where we are. He had a big arm QB, big OL and several studs to get the ball too. He decided to go full spread and recently won back to back state championships and set the scoring record for the state championship game. Adapt to your talent! It's just brutal watching a team try and go spread, RPO or tempo etc without the personnel for it just to be trendy. Of course I love playing against those teams. |
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Post by bigugly55 on Aug 25, 2024 10:04:27 GMT -6
I don’t think it’s the devil at all. There are some very smart spread guys who know what they’re doing. There are bad coaches that run ball control offenses and it looks like sh!t. However, the spread being the “in thing” attracts more of those coaches and most importantly gives them opportunities to run sh!t offenses BECAUSE they’re in the gun Yeah nobody is saying it's the devil. I'm an OL guy and I prefer a physical gap scheme style of offense with some misdirection mixed in. Good coaches adapt to their talent. My wing T mentor ended up taking a HC job at a school that had a lot more talent than we had to work with where we were several years ago. He had a big arm QB, big OL and several studs to get the ball too. He decided to go full spread and recently won back to back state championships and set the scoring record for the state championship game. Adapt to your talent! It's just brutal watching a team try and go spread, RPO or tempo etc without the personnel for it just to be trendy. Of course I love playing against those teams. |
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Post by CS on Aug 25, 2024 10:13:47 GMT -6
I coached at a school that went 1-8 running spread. We then started running the Power-T and went 3-6, 0-5 (COVID season), and 1-8. Running a different offense doesn’t mean you’re going to win more games when the players don’t get in the weight room either way. For the record, I would run Wing-T if I had the choice because that’s what I learned early on coaching so I’m not trying to push a spread offense. But did you know how to run that offense? I see guys run the flex all the time and know they don’t know what they’re doing. There is more nuance to those offenses than most understand and arguably more than spread offenses |
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Post by coachd5085 on Aug 25, 2024 10:14:09 GMT -6
Spread gets a bad rep. I am not a spread coach, but having been "semi" retired for quite a while (before returning the last few years) and watching different ball games, what you are complaining about is simply coaches not coaching the elements of the spread offense well.
I do think that part of this is an age/experience thing. I remember a thread several years back where the original poster was dumbfounded that the defense didn't "play nice" and line up all spread out so that he could run his spread to run offense. There was a legitimate gap in his knowledge where he didn't recognize that the idea of "SPREAD" was that you had to make the defense accountable to defend those spread out players.
That is the problem.
Now at the lower levels, it becomes exacerbated by not being able to teach the fundamentals required. I have seen countless threads about "If I have a QB that can throw...". For some reason, some fundamentals, such as throwing, have not been developed throughout the history of coaching. As a profession, it seems we just hope that someone shows up that can throw. Part of the reason is likely the intense time required.
Think about it. Coaches throughout history have been enamored with 4 and 5 step progressions to teach things such as blocking, tackling etc. Think DL. 6 pt explosion, to 4 pt explosion, to 3 pt stab and grab. To 3pt stab steer, shrug etc. But the QB is told "take the snap, right left right step throw. Great..the three step game is in". Think about offense. We are going to "Chalk it, walk it, bird dog it, run it" etc. But the QB position is not coached the same.
The level of detail just can't be taught to ONE position at most developmental levels due to the number of players vs number of coaches.
So it isn't the offense- it is people don't know how to, or can't coach the offense properly.
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Post by silkyice on Aug 25, 2024 10:18:43 GMT -6
I coached at a school that went 1-8 running spread. We then started running the Power-T and went 3-6, 0-5 (COVID season), and 1-8. Running a different offense doesn’t mean you’re going to win more games when the players don’t get in the weight room either way. For the record, I would run Wing-T if I had the choice because that’s what I learned early on coaching so I’m not trying to push a spread offense. But did you know how to run that offense? I see guys run the flex all the time and know they don’t know what they’re doing. There is more nuance to those offenses than most understand and arguably more than spread offenses THIS |
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Post by CS on Aug 25, 2024 10:58:21 GMT -6
Spread gets a bad rep. I am not a spread coach, but having been "semi" retired for quite a while (before returning the last few years) and watching different ball games, what you are complaining about is simply coaches not coaching the elements of the spread offense well. I do think that part of this is an age/experience thing. I remember a thread several years back where the original poster was dumbfounded that the defense didn't "play nice" and line up all spread out so that he could run his spread to run offense. There was a legitimate gap in his knowledge where he didn't recognize that the idea of "SPREAD" was that you had to make the defense accountable to defend those spread out players. That is the problem. Now at the lower levels, it becomes exacerbated by not being able to teach the fundamentals required. I have seen countless threads about "If I have a QB that can throw...". For some reason, some fundamentals, such as throwing, have not been developed throughout the history of coaching. As a profession, it seems we just hope that someone shows up that can throw. Part of the reason is likely the intense time required. Think about it. Coaches throughout history have been enamored with 4 and 5 step progressions to teach things such as blocking, tackling etc. Think DL. 6 pt explosion, to 4 pt explosion, to 3 pt stab and grab. To 3pt stab steer, shrug etc. But the QB is told "take the snap, right left right step throw. Great..the three step game is in". Think about offense. We are going to "Chalk it, walk it, bird dog it, run it" etc. But the QB position is not coached the same. The level of detail just can't be taught to ONE position at most developmental levels due to the number of players vs number of coaches. So it isn't the offense- it is people don't know how to, or can't coach the offense properly. This my point exactly. I can teach a kid to play qb in the flex. I just need a disciplined kid. Doesn't have to have any special skill set other than that. I can work around other deficiencies. But I know how to teach the little fundamentals of the positions in the offense. |
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Post by mariner42 on Aug 25, 2024 13:07:49 GMT -6
It's so frustrating.
Like... Be good at like FOUR THINGS and you're off to a nice start!
F*** just get good at zone read + step/bubble screens and you're miles ahead of a fair number of folks I see.
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