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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 28, 2023 11:21:44 GMT -6
But much like CS- you are currently describing some thing that is likely to be much different if the entire model changes. Why the assumption that a changed model would not come with the appropriate other changes? Fair point. But even if the model changes, I don't see it having any positive impact on those of us in rural communities (especially those that are isolated).
If club sports sprout up like the McDonald's franchise- there will be more opportunities/less cost... it could be just like interscholastic sports- just without the schools being a part of it.
The problem for us (and many like us in our state) is we are 80 miles from a McDonald's. I see our kids having the choice- drive 85-300 miles for club sports (much like those in AAU basketball and winter volleyball do now), or find something else to do. That will shrink our participation numbers well beyond the level they have already dropped.
I suppose it is possible to have an "elite" (don't get me started on the overuse of that word) level (or varying levels) in club sports and maintain more recreational levels in the schools. We are kind of getting that now (I lost 2 starters this year to off-season "elite team" club sports).
I see club levels getting a greater foothold where school sports were once a monopoly (to some extent, anyway). It is maybe not horrible... but for me it's an unknown- and the known has worked.
One thing I value more now than I did when I started is the impact I can have as a teacher and coach. I really noticed a bit of a disconnect even when I spent a few years in administration. The thing about that is that there are less coaches in school buildings. The model of interscholastic athletics is an outstanding one- but even that has changed since the start of my career. Whether we want to blame unions, administrators, politicians, test scores... whomever- school sports are not what they were 30 years ago.
Like Bob Dylan sang- "the times they are a-changin". Maybe club sport takeover is inevitable.
Thank you for the input. Distance and isolation are absolutely issues |
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Post by blb on Mar 28, 2023 11:56:26 GMT -6
The XFL has answers to two of those problems. One is that it doesn't have franchise clubs, but is a single business entity that owns all the teams. The other is that it competes against the NFL and USFL clubs for business. Another model that can be looked at is a sparse one, but provides a few examples: musical bands and choirs that were brought up and promoted professionally since childhood. Hold on. Are you saying that the XFL is trying to compete with the NFL? They emphatically are not. That's why their championship game is in May. The last football league that tried to directly compete with the NFL was the old USFL and that was a disaster. Yes, thanks to Donald Trump (owner of the New Jersey Generals at the time) who was so miffed that Pete Rozelle and NFL owners wouldn't give him a franchise - they knew even then what a Con man-shyster he was-is - he wanted to compete head-to-head with them and took them to court over it. Won his case, was awarded $1 (you read that right, one dollar) in damages. And killed the USFL in the process. BTW - his marquee player on the Generals was Herschel Walker. No wonder The Donald backed Walker so hard for Senator from GA last election? |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 28, 2023 12:56:54 GMT -6
We could as a society move towards club sport full time and many kids would still benefit. People would still show up to events and root on their children. Would communities follow? I am not sure they would to the extent they do now in some areas. Whenever there's a change, you'll lose some support for some period of time. It'd be the same if club sports were replaced by interscholastic ones in a given community. People used to one thing won't all transfer loyalty to something else. Interscholastic sports became a thing in the USA by a funny sequence of influences, but history is never straightforward. Basically they -- and most specifically football -- arose as an extension of intramural sports. It started with the colleges, whose crazy students wanted to play different and often more violent forms of football intramurally than the general population in the vicinity did. After some other sports began to be contested intercollegiately, football spread to be played intercollegiately too, and quickly drew audiences because it was different football from what children and adults usually played. But the reason secondary and even primary schools got into the act was partly in imitation of the colleges and partly because of the influence of the British novel Tom Brown's School Days, in which descriptions were given of intramural sports at a private boarding school. This got adapted to the very different environment of American public schools. It didn't really make sense, because since the children didn't live there and the schools usually weren't that big, there was really no reason to organize kids' games there. But then, look how popular Rowling's fantasy novels and movies about a boarding school for wizards and their attendant games are now! Anyway, American educators were looking for things to imitate pedagogically, and sports got caught up as part of that. Anyway, to make competitions feasible, teams were organized to represent whole day schools rather than houses of a large boarding school. Probably had it not been for football, interscholastic sports wouldn't be much of a thing. Kids organized baseball on their own, and when you think youth baseball you tend to think of Little League even today. Basketball was the YMCA. Swimming, wrestling, boxing, tennis...all sports that didn't owe much to schools. Schools moved in on these activities relatively late. But they glommed onto football right from the start. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 28, 2023 13:04:46 GMT -6
The XFL has answers to two of those problems. One is that it doesn't have franchise clubs, but is a single business entity that owns all the teams. The other is that it competes against the NFL and USFL clubs for business. Another model that can be looked at is a sparse one, but provides a few examples: musical bands and choirs that were brought up and promoted professionally since childhood. Hold on. Are you saying that the XFL is trying to compete with the NFL? They emphatically are not. That's why their championship game is in May. The last football league that tried to directly compete with the NFL was the old USFL and that was a disaster. Florida vacation spots compete with ski resorts too. They compete for vacation money. Same thing for things people have budgeted that they might spend on entertainment and recreation at different times of the year. So say you're an advertiser and can't afford much. You could sponsor NFL or XFL events. You have to look at prices and figure what will give you the most exposure for your business. I'm not talking about a big business that can afford to advertise with both. So sure, they're competing for business. |
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Post by echoofthewhistle on Mar 29, 2023 5:06:50 GMT -6
The reason the youth development system works in Europe is because I can have players under contract and sell them off, it how lots of clubs stay financially sound, but as seen with some US players the inablility to sign players to senior contracts until their 18 creates the opportunity for a player to leave for free. The fact that the NFL, MLB, NBA, and even the NHL don't have a direct peer to compete against means spending money on youth development becomes less important. The XFL has answers to two of those problems. One is that it doesn't have franchise clubs, but is a single business entity that owns all the teams. The other is that it competes against the NFL and USFL clubs for business. Another model that can be looked at is a sparse one, but provides a few examples: musical bands and choirs that were brought up and promoted professionally since childhood. I disagree on the XFL, USFL, or any other spring league scaring the NFL into desiring a competitive advantage via youth development. The only real hope is a directly competing fall league or football taking off in Europe and there being a competing league. I'm not saying club sports can't work. It just that they are currently not working in the US and I don't see that changing, too much money. Honestly if it did adjust similar to Europe, I'd think it would be more likely to end up as college backed prep teams after they make players university employees as a hybrid. College has more teams, isn't a closed shop, and winning drives growth more. |
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Post by Defcord on Mar 29, 2023 6:36:22 GMT -6
We could as a society move towards club sport full time and many kids would still benefit. People would still show up to events and root on their children. Would communities follow? I am not sure they would to the extent they do now in some areas. Whenever there's a change, you'll lose some support for some period of time. It'd be the same if club sports were replaced by interscholastic ones in a given community. People used to one thing won't all transfer loyalty to something else. Interscholastic sports became a thing in the USA by a funny sequence of influences, but history is never straightforward. Basically they -- and most specifically football -- arose as an extension of intramural sports. It started with the colleges, whose crazy students wanted to play different and often more violent forms of football intramurally than the general population in the vicinity did. After some other sports began to be contested intercollegiately, football spread to be played intercollegiately too, and quickly drew audiences because it was different football from what children and adults usually played. But the reason secondary and even primary schools got into the act was partly in imitation of the colleges and partly because of the influence of the British novel Tom Brown's School Days, in which descriptions were given of intramural sports at a private boarding school. This got adapted to the very different environment of American public schools. It didn't really make sense, because since the children didn't live there and the schools usually weren't that big, there was really no reason to organize kids' games there. But then, look how popular Rowling's fantasy novels and movies about a boarding school for wizards and their attendant games are now! Anyway, American educators were looking for things to imitate pedagogically, and sports got caught up as part of that. Anyway, to make competitions feasible, teams were organized to represent whole day schools rather than houses of a large boarding school. Probably had it not been for football, interscholastic sports wouldn't be much of a thing. Kids organized baseball on their own, and when you think youth baseball you tend to think of Little League even today. Basketball was the YMCA. Swimming, wrestling, boxing, tennis...all sports that didn't owe much to schools. Schools moved in on these activities relatively late. But they glommed onto football right from the start. I understand your point. I just don't fully agree with it. Parents are always going to support their children and I think that would be the same regardless of athletic model. I think the people you would lose are the members of the community who support programs and go to games because of their past links to the school. I guess only time would tell. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 29, 2023 9:27:04 GMT -6
The XFL has answers to two of those problems. One is that it doesn't have franchise clubs, but is a single business entity that owns all the teams. The other is that it competes against the NFL and USFL clubs for business. Another model that can be looked at is a sparse one, but provides a few examples: musical bands and choirs that were brought up and promoted professionally since childhood. I disagree on the XFL, USFL, or any other spring league scaring the NFL into desiring a competitive advantage via youth development. The only real hope is a directly competing fall league or football taking off in Europe and there being a competing league. Who wrote anything about scaring the NFL? I don't think the XFL owners care at all what happens to the NFL. I'm just saying that all businesses remotely similar to each other are in competition with each other. Anything that can substitute to the slightest degree for anything else is a competing product. Both the NFL and XFL are competing with movie theaters and with streaming of movie videos. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 29, 2023 9:29:38 GMT -6
Whenever there's a change, you'll lose some support for some period of time. It'd be the same if club sports were replaced by interscholastic ones in a given community. People used to one thing won't all transfer loyalty to something else. Interscholastic sports became a thing in the USA by a funny sequence of influences, but history is never straightforward. Basically they -- and most specifically football -- arose as an extension of intramural sports. It started with the colleges, whose crazy students wanted to play different and often more violent forms of football intramurally than the general population in the vicinity did. After some other sports began to be contested intercollegiately, football spread to be played intercollegiately too, and quickly drew audiences because it was different football from what children and adults usually played. But the reason secondary and even primary schools got into the act was partly in imitation of the colleges and partly because of the influence of the British novel Tom Brown's School Days, in which descriptions were given of intramural sports at a private boarding school. This got adapted to the very different environment of American public schools. It didn't really make sense, because since the children didn't live there and the schools usually weren't that big, there was really no reason to organize kids' games there. But then, look how popular Rowling's fantasy novels and movies about a boarding school for wizards and their attendant games are now! Anyway, American educators were looking for things to imitate pedagogically, and sports got caught up as part of that. Anyway, to make competitions feasible, teams were organized to represent whole day schools rather than houses of a large boarding school. Probably had it not been for football, interscholastic sports wouldn't be much of a thing. Kids organized baseball on their own, and when you think youth baseball you tend to think of Little League even today. Basketball was the YMCA. Swimming, wrestling, boxing, tennis...all sports that didn't owe much to schools. Schools moved in on these activities relatively late. But they glommed onto football right from the start. I understand your point. I just don't fully agree with it. Parents are always going to support their children and I think that would be the same regardless of athletic model. I think the people you would lose are the members of the community who support programs and go to games because of their past links to the school. I guess only time would tell. What makes you think I don't agree with that? Those are exactly reasons some people's interest would be lost. Same when a pro or am club moves from one location to another. |
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Post by fantom on Mar 29, 2023 10:12:37 GMT -6
I disagree on the XFL, USFL, or any other spring league scaring the NFL into desiring a competitive advantage via youth development. The only real hope is a directly competing fall league or football taking off in Europe and there being a competing league. Who wrote anything about scaring the NFL? I don't think the XFL owners care at all what happens to the NFL. I'm just saying that all businesses remotely similar to each other are in competition with each other. Anything that can substitute to the slightest degree for anything else is a competing product. Both the NFL and XFL are competing with movie theaters and with streaming of movie videos. The point of this discussion though was the viability of a major professional sports league starting its own club system to develop young talent. The XFL or USFL won't because it remains to be seen if they can make enough money to sustain even their own minor league operations. The NFL won't because they have no incentive to spend a lot of money for what they get now for free. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 29, 2023 10:57:25 GMT -6
Who wrote anything about scaring the NFL? I don't think the XFL owners care at all what happens to the NFL. I'm just saying that all businesses remotely similar to each other are in competition with each other. Anything that can substitute to the slightest degree for anything else is a competing product. Both the NFL and XFL are competing with movie theaters and with streaming of movie videos. The point of this discussion though was the viability of a major professional sports league starting its own club system to develop young talent. The XFL or USFL won't because it remains to be seen if they can make enough money to sustain even their own minor league operations. The NFL won't because they have no incentive to spend a lot of money for what they get now for free. Oh. I wasn't thinking of anything nearly that big or far ahead. It came into the discussion when the model of soccer development in many countries was brought up. I don't see any likelihood of that happening over the course of less than a couple of generations, and probably not even then, when it comes to an existing big-time sport in any country. If something like that were happening here, it'd be with rugby, and that's probably not happening either as long as football's drawing a lot of entertainment dollars. I think most of us (maybe I'm misreading this) weren't thinking about a supply-driven "push" caused by the entry of something like a major pro sport like football into such a massive developmental program, but rather a "pull" caused by the exit of schools from interscholastic sports. Something like that wouldn't occur all at once on a nationwide basis, but school by school, town by town, etc. over probably many years, and maybe never going to completion, maybe affecting only a minority of places -- or maybe a lot. |
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Post by veerwego on Mar 29, 2023 12:14:26 GMT -6
If the economy falls off the cliff it may be headed for, we may find out. Schools might start dumping sports left and right. May have to save the fundraising efforts to run the schools, instead of play sports.
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Post by bobgoodman on Mar 29, 2023 14:29:20 GMT -6
If the economy falls off the cliff it may be headed for, we may find out. Schools might start dumping sports left and right. May have to save the fundraising efforts to run the schools, instead of play sports. If the cliff results in greatly reduced employment, there will be less total schooling time demanded. A great deal of elementary schooling is babysitting, they don't need that many hours just for teaching. The more parents are at home, the less babysitting they need. When the economy picks up again, it might resume the same old, same old. Or maybe the lesson that we're overschooled will be learned, and that babysitters needn't be certified teachers. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Mar 29, 2023 20:00:11 GMT -6
If the economy falls off the cliff it may be headed for, we may find out. Schools might start dumping sports left and right. May have to save the fundraising efforts to run the schools, instead of play sports. If the cliff results in greatly reduced employment, there will be less total schooling time demanded. A great deal of elementary schooling is babysitting, they don't need that many hours just for teaching. The more parents are at home, the less babysitting they need. When the economy picks up again, it might resume the same old, same old. Or maybe the lesson that we're overschooled will be learned, and that babysitters needn't be certified teachers. Um..no bob. That isn't quite how that works. Elementary schools will still be open the same hours even if parents are sitting at home unemployed. And no, a great deal of elementary school time is NOT babysitting. What you seem to view as babysitting is in reality the development of the whole child, specifically social skills such as sharing, how to get along with others, peer to peer interaction as well as interacting with adults, how to emotionally handle stressors such as disappointment, conflict resolution community norms, fine and gross motor skills, as well as laying the foundations for the academic world of 20-25 students simultaneously. I would argue that certification is much less needed to read google slides or power point presentations about stoichiometry to a group of 16/17 year olds who will never use the topic. |
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Post by coachdmyers on Mar 30, 2023 11:06:44 GMT -6
Several thoughts on this, with varying degrees of relatedness, but generally I think it'd be a terrible thing:
- One thing I haven't seen yet is how it would absolutely destroy sports in rural areas.
- Even with high participation fees, school sports are almost always cheaper than club. One of my kids costs $1500 to play soccer. They aren't even doing the weekly travel tournaments yet. That doesn't include tournament fees if she plays in any. It definitely doesn't include travel costs.
- Governance of club teams and leagues varies wildly. Soccer, for example, seems like new club teams pop up all the time because someone doesn't like the way someone at the other club was doing things. Adults constantly fight for kids, status, and reputation to try and get parents' dollars into their club. It's gross. Have even seen teams break away from leagues and play a full "travel" schedule because they don't like something the league is doing.
- Related, no checks on coaches, necessarily, or what they're teaching. There isn't necessarily someone that they're beholden to.
- AAU basketball is notorious for feeding into the worst type of hoops because for the top kids, its just about showcasing themselves at tournaments for scouts.
- Even when there isn't youth sports available before high school, the high school sports teams frequently provide an "anchor" for youth teams. AAU/Jr. programs with the high school mascot and the head coach has some sway or influence (to varying degrees) if their name is on it. The purpose is more prep for high school in those cases, not trying to get their 7 year old a scholarship.
- School leagues do a much better job at keeping things focused on the purpose of sports as enriching kids lives.
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Post by tripsclosed on Mar 30, 2023 11:15:45 GMT -6
Several thoughts on this, with varying degrees of relatedness, but generally I think it'd be a terrible thing: - One thing I haven't seen yet is how it would absolutely destroy sports in rural areas. - Even with high participation fees, school sports are almost always cheaper than club. One of my kids costs $1500 to play soccer. They aren't even doing the weekly travel tournaments yet. That doesn't include tournament fees if she plays in any. It definitely doesn't include travel costs. - Governance of club teams and leagues varies wildly. Soccer, for example, seems like new club teams pop up all the time because someone doesn't like the way someone at the other club was doing things. Adults constantly fight for kids, status, and reputation to try and get parents' dollars into their club. It's gross. Have even seen teams break away from leagues and play a full "travel" schedule because they don't like something the league is doing. - Related, no checks on coaches, necessarily, or what they're teaching. There isn't necessarily someone that they're beholden to. - AAU basketball is notorious for feeding into the worst type of hoops because for the top kids, its just about showcasing themselves at tournaments for scouts. - Even when there isn't youth sports available before high school, the high school sports teams frequently provide an "anchor" for youth teams. AAU/Jr. programs with the high school mascot and the head coach has some sway or influence (to varying degrees) if their name is on it. The purpose is more prep for high school in those cases, not trying to get their 7 year old a scholarship. - School leagues do a much better job at keeping things focused on the purpose of sports as enriching kids lives. Coach, I think you made several good points and raise several issues. I do want to say this on one thing you said: HS sports, and especially football, are not really all that good about this, either lol...other than some tackling form and practice time/hitting rep regulations, most places HFCs are pretty much given free reign, for better and worse... |
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Post by veerwego on Mar 30, 2023 12:00:04 GMT -6
In our state, all coaches (middle school up) have to be CPR certified. We all have to "pass" a concussion and heat illness test each year. It is something, although clearly not that challenging.
Best thing for me when I was head coach, hired a guy on staff that was a full time paramedic before and teaches health science now. His classroom has the back of an ambulance set up. Kids can leave his program and get a job instantly at graduation. He was in charge of teaching all this stuff for us and was very good. Also a tremendous amount of piece of mind at practice each day with a trained/expert paramedic on the field.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Mar 31, 2023 6:41:38 GMT -6
In 1996 this topic was the basis for my thesis in sports administration. Many things have changed since 1996. And just in the last 5 years the push toward individual sport specific training has exploded. Even if you are only playing a HS sport the pressure to participate in "Extra" training with a personal coach or skill development center has created extra costs. Some of these programs are amazing and produce great results. Others collect a check and call it a day. These programs in our rural area (150,000) cover basketball, softball/baseball, hockey, tennis, gymnastics, volleyball, track and wrestling. The closest football location is 5+ hours away. Costs for sessions range from single hour sessions of $50 to over $2000 for 6 week programs. There are opportunities in some cases to compete but those are not open to everyone.
Clubs coaches that are good recruiters simply select the best players. There is virtually no talent development and this becomes a sole source of income for the club coaches.
Basketball has been the fore runner on this nationally but hockey, volleyball and soccer are not far off. As mentioned in an above comment soccer clubs pop up pretty quick, in our area a club popped up gained a ton of exposure and had multiple teams at several age levels...then the coaches went to Brazil for 4 weeks on the clubs money. There was no recourse for the families involved, the coaches ran the club and created by laws that allowed them to use funds to attend global soccer events, World Cup Soccer in 2014 in this case.
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Post by irishdog on Apr 26, 2023 11:01:41 GMT -6
What we have known for years has no longer anything to do with high school sports, competitive levels, etc. It will have everything to do with the haves and have nots. According to Footballscoop.com: "Endeavor, the parent company of IMG Academy agreed to sell IMG to a Hong Kong based private equity firm in a 1.25 BILLION - ALL CASH deal. BPEA EQT will fold IMG Academy into another company it owns, Nord Anglia Education, which manages more than 70 private schools around the globe." This, coupled with the NIL and Transfer Portal in college football, and how pro football is structuring players and coaches contracts, has completely changed everything we have known and loved about the game. Gentlemen, the future is now. Sad times for all of us indeed.
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 26, 2023 15:49:58 GMT -6
What we have known for years has no longer anything to do with high school sports, competitive levels, etc. It will have everything to do with the haves and have nots. According to Footballscoop.com: "Endeavor, the parent company of IMG Academy agreed to sell IMG to a Hong Kong based private equity firm in a 1.25 BILLION - ALL CASH deal. BPEA EQT will fold IMG Academy into another company it owns, Nord Anglia Education, which manages more than 70 private schools around the globe." This, coupled with the NIL and Transfer Portal in college football, and how pro football is structuring players and coaches contracts, has completely changed everything we have known and loved about the game. Gentlemen, the future is now. Sad times for all of us indeed. one good note from the article you left out was Endeavor sold it for half of the price it bought it for in 2013 |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 27, 2023 9:24:54 GMT -6
Hasn't this argument been had about 7,000 times here?
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