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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2023 12:21:13 GMT -6
been out of coaching/teaching for 10 years, but after 34 years of it, i would be pretty skeptical of the change. maybe i'm kind of cynical, but in my experience, those in charge rarely have your best interests at heart. just my 2 cents, which apparently is no longer worth 2 cents. Agreed. Also, in my experience, your union doesn't have your best interests at heart either. They're their for themselves and their buddies.
A strong, reasonable local union will do wonders for a teaching staff. Otherwise, they can be pretty detrimental. Honestly, negotiating contracts should be simple because you know what a district can afford. Everyone has access to every aspect of the districts finances and there's no reason why a district can't negotiate a simple COLA raise every single year.
But, again, this is assuming the union is strong and reasonable. When I negotiated contracts, I had to tell the union "No, I won't go the table for _____" three different times. I was negotiating with truck drivers and ranchers and there's no way in hell I'm going to risk a 4% bump in pay on the base for three extra personal days.
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 19, 2023 14:05:59 GMT -6
Agreed. Also, in my experience, your union doesn't have your best interests at heart either. They're their for themselves and their buddies.
A strong, reasonable local union will do wonders for a teaching staff. Otherwise, they can be pretty detrimental. Honestly, negotiating contracts should be simple because you know what a district can afford. Everyone has access to every aspect of the districts finances and there's no reason why a district can't negotiate a simple COLA raise every single year.
But, again, this is assuming the union is strong and reasonable. When I negotiated contracts, I had to tell the union "No, I won't go the table for _____" three different times. I was negotiating with truck drivers and ranchers and there's no way in hell I'm going to risk a 4% bump in pay on the base for three extra personal days.
Don't get me started on personal days. Every year I get into an argument with teachings using sick days to do personal things. Probably one of my biggest pet peeves. Our district gives teachers 10 sick days a year (that can roll over)- 3 of which can be personal (those don't roll over) You work 181 days. It is ridiculous to think you should get paid 5 days to go to Disney or on a Cruise. I think one of the weaknesses/issues of teacher's unions are that they are really school district employee unions- which further adds to the vast differences between different jobs in the educational system. Tough to collectively bargain things when it is clear that a HS Art Teacher is different than a Band Director which is different than a frosh Civics teacher, which is different than a HS math teacher with 4 different preps, which is different than a Jr. High foreign language teacher, which is different than a 2nd grade teacher, which is different than an elementary PE teacher which is different than a literacy interventionist, which is different than an elementary behavioral class teacher which is different than a HS librarian, which is different than an elementary librarian, which is different than an instructional coach, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who team teaches, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who pulls students...all of which are different than non certificated personnel such as custodians, maintenance, IT, Human Resources, bus drivers, etc. I think an issue moving forward with unions as the teaching shortage grows is that the number of younger teachers will be increasing-and older teachers decreasing. The wants of the younger generation are different than the old hats. That is actually how the business world was able to drop pensions and push the 401(k) narrative. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 19, 2023 14:20:57 GMT -6
Are the highest taxed states not big union, left leaning states- New York, Massachusetts, California, Illinois, etc? So maybe I misunderstood, but the way I read what you were saying is that the higher tax rates more than negate the higher pay. So you're better off in one of the lower tax states. Is that correct or did I misunderstand what you were saying? Maybe not better off, but I'm suggesting it's more of a wash than you think. The $10k more number is all people fixate on when they talk salary numbers, but what they don't talk about is the much higher property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, license plate fees, gas taxes, etc that go along with that extra $10k in salary. For example- I paid $5,000 last year in property taxes on a $160,000 house. |
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Post by larrymoe on Apr 19, 2023 14:24:28 GMT -6
Agreed. Also, in my experience, your union doesn't have your best interests at heart either. They're their for themselves and their buddies.
A strong, reasonable local union will do wonders for a teaching staff.
In 8 different HS I never saw one of these. |
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Post by coachcb on Apr 19, 2023 14:48:15 GMT -6
A strong, reasonable local union will do wonders for a teaching staff. Otherwise, they can be pretty detrimental. Honestly, negotiating contracts should be simple because you know what a district can afford. Everyone has access to every aspect of the districts finances and there's no reason why a district can't negotiate a simple COLA raise every single year.
But, again, this is assuming the union is strong and reasonable. When I negotiated contracts, I had to tell the union "No, I won't go the table for _____" three different times. I was negotiating with truck drivers and ranchers and there's no way in hell I'm going to risk a 4% bump in pay on the base for three extra personal days.
Don't get me started on personal days. Every year I get into an argument with teachings using sick days to do personal things. Probably one of my biggest pet peeves. Our district gives teachers 10 sick days a year (that can roll over)- 3 of which can be personal (those don't roll over) You work 181 days. It is ridiculous to think you should get paid 5 days to go to Disney or on a Cruise. I think one of the weaknesses/issues of teacher's unions are that they are really school district employee unions- which further adds to the vast differences between different jobs in the educational system. Tough to collectively bargain things when it is clear that a HS Art Teacher is different than a Band Director which is different than a frosh Civics teacher, which is different than a HS math teacher with 4 different preps, which is different than a Jr. High foreign language teacher, which is different than a 2nd grade teacher, which is different than an elementary PE teacher which is different than a literacy interventionist, which is different than an elementary behavioral class teacher which is different than a HS librarian, which is different than an elementary librarian, which is different than an instructional coach, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who team teaches, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who pulls students...all of which are different than non certificated personnel such as custodians, maintenance, IT, Human Resources, bus drivers, etc. I think an issue moving forward with unions as the teaching shortage grows is that the number of younger teachers will be increasing-and older teachers decreasing. The wants of the younger generation are different than the old hats. That is actually how the business world was able to drop pensions and push the 401(k) narrative.
IME, there's just not much common sense within some unions. They routinely fail to step back and compromise when it comes to the best interest of EVERY teacher in the union. I made it pretty simple when I was president and negotiating contracts: we could all agree on more money on the base and that's what I pushed for. Some didn't like that approach and I made it clear that they could appoint someone else to go to the table. No one else wanted to do the leg work for negotiations so I got my way.
"My way" resulted in the school being the 8th highest paid in the state and 2nd in the classification. I knew what the district could afford while not breaking the bank and asked for it. I didn't do much dickering with them: I asked for 4.5% on the base (compounding) and they gave us 4%. The 4.5% would've squeezed them a little bit so I had no problem backing off to 4%. But, I knew that going in and planned accordingly.
If I had asked for more personal days, higher insurance coverage or any of the other things the union was pushing, we wouldn't have gotten them and been lucky to get 3%. Just asking for more personal days would've pretty much guaranteed a miserable raise. We already had two teachers take unpaid days that year because they burned through their ten days every single year.
The union viewed all the crap they wanted as bargaining tools. What they didn't realize (even after it was explained to them) was that these aren't REAL negotiations. We know what's in the coffers and we know what the insurance projections look like it so we can just ask for a reasonable raise. If insurance is going to jump significantly, either make sure the raise covers the difference or ask for a smaller raise and more money towards the premium, depending on which results in more money for the teachers.
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Post by coachdmyers on Apr 19, 2023 15:02:18 GMT -6
So maybe I misunderstood, but the way I read what you were saying is that the higher tax rates more than negate the higher pay. So you're better off in one of the lower tax states. Is that correct or did I misunderstand what you were saying? Maybe not better off, but I'm suggesting it's more of a wash than you think. The $10k more number is all people fixate on when they talk salary numbers, but what they don't talk about is the much higher property taxes, sales taxes, income taxes, license plate fees, gas taxes, etc that go along with that extra $10k in salary. For example- I paid $5,000 last year in property taxes on a $160,000 house. Soooo, I took the liberal states you mentioned (minus Illinois, and threw in CT because it's tax burden is so high), then compared them to the four highest paying conservative states (for this I just defined them as states with a "trifecta" in state gov: governor, house, and senate control). Then calculated the tax burden, based on the tax policy site, and figured out what the impact on salaries was. Here's what I got... State...Avg Teacher Salary...%Tax burden...$tax burden...salary after tax burden CA $85,892...13.5%...$11,595...$74,297 MA $86,315...11.5%...$9,926...$76,389 NY $87,738...15.9%...$13,850...$73,888 CT $79,742...15.4%...$12,280...$67,462 GA $60,553...8.9%...$5389...$55,164 WY $60,357...7.5%...$4526...$55,831 TX $57,641...8.6%...$4957...$52,684 UT $56,918...12.1%...$6887...$50,031 So we're really talking more like a $20k difference on average. Now, you could get into cost of living discussions, but those can't be calculated by state. You'd have to do a city to city comparison. That brings in a lot of other factors. Sure, in a place like San Francisco might not actually get you a better standard of living or disposable income, but maybe you want to be in Sacramento, or in the Fresno Valley. Anyway, I was curious enough to do the math. Obviously some people might prefer the lower tax burden, and people will make different choices that work for them. Point is, it's not quite as simple as being a wash. I live about 10 miles from a conservative state. I'd take a $25k paycut (just looked it up) if I started teaching over there, with a very similar cost of living. |
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Post by Defcord on Apr 19, 2023 15:45:00 GMT -6
A strong, reasonable local union will do wonders for a teaching staff. Otherwise, they can be pretty detrimental. Honestly, negotiating contracts should be simple because you know what a district can afford. Everyone has access to every aspect of the districts finances and there's no reason why a district can't negotiate a simple COLA raise every single year.
But, again, this is assuming the union is strong and reasonable. When I negotiated contracts, I had to tell the union "No, I won't go the table for _____" three different times. I was negotiating with truck drivers and ranchers and there's no way in hell I'm going to risk a 4% bump in pay on the base for three extra personal days.
Don't get me started on personal days. Every year I get into an argument with teachings using sick days to do personal things. Probably one of my biggest pet peeves. Our district gives teachers 10 sick days a year (that can roll over)- 3 of which can be personal (those don't roll over) You work 181 days. It is ridiculous to think you should get paid 5 days to go to Disney or on a Cruise. I think one of the weaknesses/issues of teacher's unions are that they are really school district employee unions- which further adds to the vast differences between different jobs in the educational system. Tough to collectively bargain things when it is clear that a HS Art Teacher is different than a Band Director which is different than a frosh Civics teacher, which is different than a HS math teacher with 4 different preps, which is different than a Jr. High foreign language teacher, which is different than a 2nd grade teacher, which is different than an elementary PE teacher which is different than a literacy interventionist, which is different than an elementary behavioral class teacher which is different than a HS librarian, which is different than an elementary librarian, which is different than an instructional coach, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who team teaches, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who pulls students...all of which are different than non certificated personnel such as custodians, maintenance, IT, Human Resources, bus drivers, etc. I think an issue moving forward with unions as the teaching shortage grows is that the number of younger teachers will be increasing-and older teachers decreasing. The wants of the younger generation are different than the old hats. That is actually how the business world was able to drop pensions and push the 401(k) narrative. What if their spouse can only get off for the cruise during the school year? Just because teachers get a lot of time off doesn’t mean the people in their life’s are on the same schedule. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 19, 2023 15:57:58 GMT -6
Don't get me started on personal days. Every year I get into an argument with teachings using sick days to do personal things. Probably one of my biggest pet peeves. Our district gives teachers 10 sick days a year (that can roll over)- 3 of which can be personal (those don't roll over) You work 181 days. It is ridiculous to think you should get paid 5 days to go to Disney or on a Cruise. I think one of the weaknesses/issues of teacher's unions are that they are really school district employee unions- which further adds to the vast differences between different jobs in the educational system. Tough to collectively bargain things when it is clear that a HS Art Teacher is different than a Band Director which is different than a frosh Civics teacher, which is different than a HS math teacher with 4 different preps, which is different than a Jr. High foreign language teacher, which is different than a 2nd grade teacher, which is different than an elementary PE teacher which is different than a literacy interventionist, which is different than an elementary behavioral class teacher which is different than a HS librarian, which is different than an elementary librarian, which is different than an instructional coach, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who team teaches, which is different than a SPED resource teacher who pulls students...all of which are different than non certificated personnel such as custodians, maintenance, IT, Human Resources, bus drivers, etc. I think an issue moving forward with unions as the teaching shortage grows is that the number of younger teachers will be increasing-and older teachers decreasing. The wants of the younger generation are different than the old hats. That is actually how the business world was able to drop pensions and push the 401(k) narrative. What if their spouse can only get off for the cruise during the school year? Just because teachers get a lot of time off doesn’t mean the people in their life’s are on the same schedule. Take unpaid leave. Flip the script, --the teacher can only get off for the cruise during non school calendar periods. Do you envision those other's employers saying "oh well..then more days off for you!!!" |
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Post by Defcord on Apr 19, 2023 19:35:50 GMT -6
What if their spouse can only get off for the cruise during the school year? Just because teachers get a lot of time off doesn’t mean the people in their life’s are on the same schedule. Take unpaid leave. Flip the script, --the teacher can only get off for the cruise during non school calendar periods. Do you envision those other's employers saying "oh well..then more days off for you!!!" Teachers are drastically underpaid in some areas, moderately underpaid in other areas, comfortably paid in other areas. Overall I think most would agree that the compensation of teachers is low compared to the service they provide. One of the few benefits teachers get that is excellent is time off and leave. There’s very little that convinces me this should be cut without some other financial compensation. And really I still would prefer the leave because the stress levels in education have increased drastically over the past two decades that I have taught as the scope of responsibilities have increased and general work climate has declined. As a parent and professional I am glad teachers are loaded with leave and wish more teachers would take more of it in many cases to refurbish their mental and physical health. The high number of sick days provide an opportunity for this. I am talking about just taking a day to sleep or shop or play golf or read a book or go on a cruise. I want my son to be taught by teachers that look forward to going to work, not ones that dread it. I would argue he is getting a better educational experience with a motivated teacher for 160-165 days and the remaining 15-20 with a sub than a stressed out teacher whose there 177 days and the remaining three days with a sub. I wish all professions valued their employees and gave them more time off. I would certainly hope that an employer would respect an employee’s family situation and work in a way to allow them to take vacations with their families even in awkward scheduling frames. So I have no problem at all with the flipped script. I genuinely believe when you can find a way in any organization to create an environment where people want to go to work then it is a good situation. And by protecting time off that goal can be better accomplished. My brother sells cars and makes a ton of money and hates his job. It’s impossible for him not to bring it home with him. He was offered a managers position and a huge raise and he told them it would be a promotion to take a pay cut but get more time off. That’s anecdotal but I imagine a lot of people feel the same. In my perfect world there would be a set number of protected and paid days off that teachers would get. (I don’t know the appropriate number). And they would be able to use them without any explanation. That would eliminate the ambiguity. After those days any time off would be unpaid if approved and after that any time off would be punishable by whatever system is agreed upon in contract. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Apr 19, 2023 20:38:31 GMT -6
Take unpaid leave. Flip the script, --the teacher can only get off for the cruise during non school calendar periods. Do you envision those other's employers saying "oh well..then more days off for you!!!" Teachers are drastically underpaid in some areas, moderately underpaid in other areas, comfortably paid in other areas. Overall I think most would agree that the compensation of teachers is low compared to the service they provide. One of the few benefits teachers get that is excellent is time off and leave. There’s very little that convinces me this should be cut without some other financial compensation. And really I still would prefer the leave because the stress levels in education have increased drastically over the past two decades that I have taught as the scope of responsibilities have increased and general work climate has declined. As a parent and professional I am glad teachers are loaded with leave and wish more teachers would take more of it in many cases to refurbish their mental and physical health. The high number of sick days provide an opportunity for this. I am talking about just taking a day to sleep or shop or play golf or read a book or go on a cruise. I want my son to be taught by teachers that look forward to going to work, not ones that dread it. I would argue he is getting a better educational experience with a motivated teacher for 160-165 days and the remaining 15-20 with a sub than a stressed out teacher whose there 177 days and the remaining three days with a sub. I wish all professions valued their employees and gave them more time off. I would certainly hope that an employer would respect an employee’s family situation and work in a way to allow them to take vacations with their families even in awkward scheduling frames. So I have no problem at all with the flipped script. I genuinely believe when you can find a way in any organization to create an environment where people want to go to work then it is a good situation. And by protecting time off that goal can be better accomplished. My brother sells cars and makes a ton of money and hates his job. It’s impossible for him not to bring it home with him. He was offered a managers position and a huge raise and he told them it would be a promotion to take a pay cut but get more time off. That’s anecdotal but I imagine a lot of people feel the same. In my perfect world there would be a set number of protected and paid days off that teachers would get. (I don’t know the appropriate number). And they would be able to use them without any explanation. That would eliminate the ambiguity. After those days any time off would be unpaid if approved and after that any time off would be punishable by whatever system is agreed upon in contract. As I mentioned, I am an educator as well. And while underpaid is pretty accurate, again remember that is a relative term given people quote an annual salary (which represents approximately 260 days) but most of us are only working (or required to be at a location to work more accurately) working around 180 days. I often here "oh, but teachers do so much out of school". Yes true, but as you pointed out in your anecdote, so do many if not most others. I disagree with the notion that high number of sick days are for taking a day to "sleep in" or shop or play golf etc. The high number of sick days are granted because educators work with children in a high contagious environment. Now we probably don't disagree much- In the post you originally responded to, I believe I mentioned that the district I was referring to accrues 10 sick days a year- 3 of which may be "personal" (basically use for any reason). My complaint was about teachers who lie and use "sick days" to miss when they are not truly sick. I get into arguments with colleagues who state "but those are our days". Their mindset is "We work 181 days, but I am entitled to miss 10 of those". I think in a perfect world, there would be NO amount of sick days. People would go to work when well, and stay home when sick (and be paid). If a teacher seems to miss to much, well then that is a grounds for dismissal. But I know that is not a realistic scenario in |
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Post by Defcord on Apr 20, 2023 3:12:23 GMT -6
Teachers are drastically underpaid in some areas, moderately underpaid in other areas, comfortably paid in other areas. Overall I think most would agree that the compensation of teachers is low compared to the service they provide. One of the few benefits teachers get that is excellent is time off and leave. There’s very little that convinces me this should be cut without some other financial compensation. And really I still would prefer the leave because the stress levels in education have increased drastically over the past two decades that I have taught as the scope of responsibilities have increased and general work climate has declined. As a parent and professional I am glad teachers are loaded with leave and wish more teachers would take more of it in many cases to refurbish their mental and physical health. The high number of sick days provide an opportunity for this. I am talking about just taking a day to sleep or shop or play golf or read a book or go on a cruise. I want my son to be taught by teachers that look forward to going to work, not ones that dread it. I would argue he is getting a better educational experience with a motivated teacher for 160-165 days and the remaining 15-20 with a sub than a stressed out teacher whose there 177 days and the remaining three days with a sub. I wish all professions valued their employees and gave them more time off. I would certainly hope that an employer would respect an employee’s family situation and work in a way to allow them to take vacations with their families even in awkward scheduling frames. So I have no problem at all with the flipped script. I genuinely believe when you can find a way in any organization to create an environment where people want to go to work then it is a good situation. And by protecting time off that goal can be better accomplished. My brother sells cars and makes a ton of money and hates his job. It’s impossible for him not to bring it home with him. He was offered a managers position and a huge raise and he told them it would be a promotion to take a pay cut but get more time off. That’s anecdotal but I imagine a lot of people feel the same. In my perfect world there would be a set number of protected and paid days off that teachers would get. (I don’t know the appropriate number). And they would be able to use them without any explanation. That would eliminate the ambiguity. After those days any time off would be unpaid if approved and after that any time off would be punishable by whatever system is agreed upon in contract. As I mentioned, I am an educator as well. And while underpaid is pretty accurate, again remember that is a relative term given people quote an annual salary (which represents approximately 260 days) but most of us are only working (or required to be at a location to work more accurately) working around 180 days. I often here "oh, but teachers do so much out of school". Yes true, but as you pointed out in your anecdote, so do many if not most others. I disagree with the notion that high number of sick days are for taking a day to "sleep in" or shop or play golf etc. The high number of sick days are granted because educators work with children in a high contagious environment. Now we probably don't disagree much- In the post you originally responded to, I believe I mentioned that the district I was referring to accrues 10 sick days a year- 3 of which may be "personal" (basically use for any reason). My complaint was about teachers who lie and use "sick days" to miss when they are not truly sick. I get into arguments with colleagues who state "but those are our days". Their mindset is "We work 181 days, but I am entitled to miss 10 of those". I think in a perfect world, there would be NO amount of sick days. People would go to work when well, and stay home when sick (and be paid). If a teacher seems to miss to much, well then that is a grounds for dismissal. But I know that is not a realistic scenario in Other professions do ask employees to work more quite often. Teaching is somewhat unique in that when we are asked to do more there is not an additional associated incentive. Sick days may certainly be given because the contagious nature of the work environment. I don’t think they were given to be used for mental health recharges, but I do think they should be allowed and encouraged to be used that way. I do agree with you that teachers shouldn’t lie about why they are missing. But again I don’t think teachers should be asked why they are missing. They should have a certain number days they are allowed to miss and as long as they respect protocol to request time off then they should get it. Your perfect would is much more utopian than mine. I also think that would be a great way to approach health and leave in all industries. I also agree it’s very unlikely to work unfortunately. |
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Post by coachwoodall on Apr 20, 2023 7:30:46 GMT -6
I personally look at sick/personal day as part of my compensation package. I get 12 a year, if I don't use them I can bank them; up to 90. When I retire I will get paid for any used in that bank (for a fraction of my daily rate).
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2023 8:27:36 GMT -6
I personally look at sick/personal day as part of my compensation package. I get 12 a year, if I don't use them I can bank them; up to 90. When I retire I will get paid for any used in that bank (for a fraction of my daily rate).
I agree as long as teachers don't abuse it. My issue is with teachers who perpetually use all of their personal days and then a) ask for donations from other teachers and b) try to demand more days during negotiations. I've run into a few school boards that have done away with the donation system due to teachers who've pulled this chit. That screws over the people who really need the donations.
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Post by CanyonCoach on Apr 20, 2023 9:36:06 GMT -6
Great discussion, thanks to the contributors for providing insight into what other districts/states are facing in this area.
The area that is a burr in my saddle is the ability to get to appointments/run errands while coaching is virtually impossible. At the weight room at 6:00am, school duties start at 7:45, lunch duty, not allowed to leave during prep, coach duties start 15 minutes after classes end.
I usually add a half hour onto departures for away contests just to go I can get to the bank, deliver items to boosters. Every DR. appointment is extended at least an hour to get personal issues/errands completed.
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Post by coachcb on Apr 20, 2023 9:39:34 GMT -6
Great discussion, thanks to the contributors for providing insight into what other districts/states are facing in this area. The area that is a burr in my saddle is the ability to get to appointments/run errands while coaching is virtually impossible. At the weight room at 6:00am, school duties start at 7:45, lunch duty, not allowed to leave during prep, coach duties start 15 minutes after classes end. I usually add a half hour onto departures for away contests just to go I can get to the bank, deliver items to boosters. Every DR. appointment is extended at least an hour to get personal issues/errands completed.
This has been a big driving point for 4-day school weeks. Teachers and kiddos take less time away from school as they have Fridays to handle things. I taught in one school with this type of schedule and it does cut down on absenteeism across the board.
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