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Post by irishdog on Feb 4, 2023 15:04:34 GMT -6
Most suggestions listed on this thread are true, and valuable. From my own experience I turned around two programs that were "down", each one different from the other.
One had a rich history, successful, all-boys Catholic school of 600 with a 60 man roster playing in the highest division in the state. Within the 10 years prior to my arrival the school was hit hard by the recession. School almost closed. Forced to merge with the girls' school and a parish school to stay alive. Enrollment went down to 300 co-ed. Still played in the highest football division in the state (tradition) along with all other sports and getting killed (exception basketball). Not much of a weight room and strength program. Football team had won 5 games in the 3 previous years before I was hired. The new Principal who hired me supported my views, and supported my decisions on how to change things. Within two years we moved down a division in football only. Built a weight room. Participation numbers improved, and won 5 games. In years 3 and 4 we played in two consecutive state semi-final games and won the City championship.
The other school had not experienced a winning season in the 11 years prior to my hire. The school had all the resources but administrative leadership for 9 of those "down" years was scarce. In the two years prior to being hired the school administration changed for the better. Again, the school president, principal, and AD were 100% behind me. Since the resources were already there I focused on the schedule, the coaching staff, building numbers, and the X's and O's. Decided on an offense that conference foes had never seen. Developed an identity on offense. Defensively went to a 4-2 look that most opponents had not played against. Developed an identity on defense. Those two moves excited the players, and they brought more players into the program. I coordinated the offense, and found a firebrand to coordinate the defense. In year 1 we played for the conference championship. Year 2 we won it and made the playoffs. Year 3 won the conference championship again and advanced to the section championship. Year 4 lost in the conference championship but still made the playoffs and won the section and lost in the regional. The following year went to state.
Long story short. Do your homework first. Know the overall history of the school, and what caused the "down" years. Some schools falter, others struggle. Create your vision accordingly.
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Post by QBCoachDurham on Feb 6, 2023 15:51:17 GMT -6
I've turned around 4 programs. Two were places that used to be good and had fallen on hard times, and two were places that had never been good. There's no secret formula or magic elevator. A few things that have worked for me over the years:
1. Don't waste time on seniors that aren't buying in. Move on from them. Play younger kids.
2. Don't compromise on your principals, but be flexible in implementing them. In my current position, I got hired the first week of June. At the first team function we held, there were 18 kids. Numbers stayed low most of the summer. The kids that were there, and the coaches I retained, kept telling me that more would show up when school started, which was the week of the first game. This had been allowed by the previous 3 head coaches. I said ok, I'll put up with that for this year. After the season, I made it clear what the expectations were going forward. One kid tried to test me in year two and I did not let him play. Haven't had an issue since. had I been a hard ass year on, I might not have had enough kids to finish the season (we went 7-5).
3. Put your players in the best gear possible. Get a Nike or Under Armour contract with BSN. Every program I took over had an inferiority complex because the facilities and uniforms sucked. I couldn't fix the facilities right away, but I could fix the uniform issue.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 6, 2023 16:16:00 GMT -6
I've turned around 4 programs. Two were places that used to be good and had fallen on hard times, and two were places that had never been good. There's no secret formula or magic elevator. A few things that have worked for me over the years: 1. Don't waste time on seniors that aren't buying in. Move on from them. Play younger kids. 2. Don't compromise on your principals, but be flexible in implementing them. In my current position, I got hired the first week of June. At the first team function we held, there were 18 kids. Numbers stayed low most of the summer. The kids that were there, and the coaches I retained, kept telling me that more would show up when school started, which was the week of the first game. This had been allowed by the previous 3 head coaches. I said ok, I'll put up with that for this year. After the season, I made it clear what the expectations were going forward. One kid tried to test me in year two and I did not let him play. Haven't had an issue since. had I been a hard ass year on, I might not have had enough kids to finish the season (we went 7-5). 3. Put your players in the best gear possible. Get a Nike or Under Armour contract with BSN. Every program I took over had an inferiority complex because the facilities and uniforms sucked. I couldn't fix the facilities right away, but I could fix the uniform issue. This is a great post. I do want to emphasize one thing that I think could be misinterpreted. Point 1. You are not saying don't waste time on seniors. You are saying don't waste time on seniors that aren't buying in. I agree fully.
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Post by irishdog on Feb 6, 2023 20:38:47 GMT -6
I've turned around 4 programs. Two were places that used to be good and had fallen on hard times, and two were places that had never been good. There's no secret formula or magic elevator. A few things that have worked for me over the years: 1. Don't waste time on seniors that aren't buying in. Move on from them. Play younger kids. 2. Don't compromise on your principals, but be flexible in implementing them. In my current position, I got hired the first week of June. At the first team function we held, there were 18 kids. Numbers stayed low most of the summer. The kids that were there, and the coaches I retained, kept telling me that more would show up when school started, which was the week of the first game. This had been allowed by the previous 3 head coaches. I said ok, I'll put up with that for this year. After the season, I made it clear what the expectations were going forward. One kid tried to test me in year two and I did not let him play. Haven't had an issue since. had I been a hard ass year on, I might not have had enough kids to finish the season (we went 7-5). 3. Put your players in the best gear possible. Get a Nike or Under Armour contract with BSN. Every program I took over had an inferiority complex because the facilities and uniforms sucked. I couldn't fix the facilities right away, but I could fix the uniform issue. Very much in agreement with the seniors in year one. At the first school I turned around in year one there were 8 returning seniors. When I told them we would start taking care of our freshmen instead of hazing them, and hazing would no longer be tolerated, two of the 8 quit and transferred out. The other 6 were great kids who bought in and contributed a ton to building the foundation of the program. Although we only won one game that year 3 of those seniors came back in year three to help me coach the team that made it to the state semi-finals.
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Post by sweep26 on Feb 6, 2023 21:12:33 GMT -6
I've turned around 4 programs. Two were places that used to be good and had fallen on hard times, and two were places that had never been good. There's no secret formula or magic elevator. A few things that have worked for me over the years: 1. Don't waste time on seniors that aren't buying in. Move on from them. Play younger kids. 2. Don't compromise on your principals, but be flexible in implementing them. In my current position, I got hired the first week of June. At the first team function we held, there were 18 kids. Numbers stayed low most of the summer. The kids that were there, and the coaches I retained, kept telling me that more would show up when school started, which was the week of the first game. This had been allowed by the previous 3 head coaches. I said ok, I'll put up with that for this year. After the season, I made it clear what the expectations were going forward. One kid tried to test me in year two and I did not let him play. Haven't had an issue since. had I been a hard ass year on, I might not have had enough kids to finish the season (we went 7-5). 3. Put your players in the best gear possible. Get a Nike or Under Armour contract with BSN. Every program I took over had an inferiority complex because the facilities and uniforms sucked. I couldn't fix the facilities right away, but I could fix the uniform issue. Very much in agreement with the seniors in year one. At the first school I turned around in year one there were 8 returning seniors. When I told them we would start taking care of our freshmen instead of hazing them, and hazing would no longer be tolerated, two of the 8 quit and transferred out. The other 6 were great kids who bought in and contributed a ton to building the foundation of the program. Although we only won one game that year 3 of those seniors came back in year three to help me coach the team that made it to the state semi-finals. IMHO...this is not just a senior thing...we will not wase time on anyone that does not "buy-in". I will qualify this with the statement that, if two kids are equal we will go with the upper-classmen...again, IMHO the kid that has the most time invested in the program will get the edge...to begin with. We have always told our kids..."this is not a union"...there is no such thing as seniority, etc....we are going to play the best people, PERIOD!!!!!!!!
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Post by sweep26 on Feb 11, 2023 21:43:47 GMT -6
Define down. Like, used to be good, hit a rough patch or has never won a playoff game? I think the answers differ based on those situations.
Agreed. There's "down" programs and then there's "We barely have enough kids to play a varsity schedule" bad.
This appears to be the $24,000.00 challenge in many "Down Programs"...unless it is a tiny school, where their total enrollment numbers are very low...why aren't the athletes who "starred" on the lower level teams going out for football in high school? I realize that it might be because they have a strong basketball program, or perhaps a strong wrestling program, and the coaches in those programs discourage participation in football...but in the end, don't you think that a major factor in their decision to not go out for football in high school really comes down to the student-athletes previous experience in youth or middle school football? If they got hammered every season in their younger years, their belief in their ability to succeed in football would have to be at a very low ebb...and they ask themselves...why should I go through this again? So my question to you guys is this: If you are going into a "Down Program" where the participation numbers are low, shouldn't you place as much of your focus on up-grading your lower level programs as you plan to do with the varsity program? Obviously, if your high school participation numbers are competitive with the other teams in your league...then your concern regarding up-grading those lower level programs probably should not require much of your time.
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Post by KYCoach2331 on Feb 12, 2023 6:23:54 GMT -6
I know you said excluding weight room but make sure you lift in season.
It doesn’t matter what program you run, you just have to do it year round. Too many people lift January to June and stop when it’s football time and wonder why their gains aren’t as much or think it’s the programs fault.
Everyone of our kids (who didn’t have an injury that is) this year either got stronger or maintained numbers in the season. Made a huge difference for them this offseason.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 12, 2023 7:53:22 GMT -6
Agreed. There's "down" programs and then there's "We barely have enough kids to play a varsity schedule" bad.
This appears to be the $24,000.00 challenge in many "Down Programs"...unless it is a tiny school, where their total enrollment numbers are very low...why aren't the athletes who "starred" on the lower level teams going out for football in high school? I realize that it might be because they have a strong basketball program, or perhaps a strong wrestling program, and the coaches in those programs discourage participation in football...but in the end, don't you think that a major factor in their decision to not go out for football in high school really comes down to the student-athletes previous experience in youth or middle school football? If they got hammered every season in their younger years, their belief in their ability to succeed in football would have to be at a very low ebb...and they ask themselves...why should I go through this again? So my question to you guys is this: If you are going into a "Down Program" where the participation numbers are low, shouldn't you place as much of your focus on up-grading your lower level programs as you plan to do with the varsity program? Obviously, if your high school participation numbers are competitive with the other teams in your league...then your concern regarding up-grading those lower level programs probably should not require much of your time. Absolutely. Vetting the junior high and youth programs should be a high priority. And, it's really not that difficult; just make sure you don't have a$$holes coaching down there. Those guys have two priorities: teach fundamentals and get the kids playing time.
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Post by Defcord on Feb 12, 2023 8:32:33 GMT -6
This appears to be the $24,000.00 challenge in many "Down Programs"...unless it is a tiny school, where their total enrollment numbers are very low...why aren't the athletes who "starred" on the lower level teams going out for football in high school? I realize that it might be because they have a strong basketball program, or perhaps a strong wrestling program, and the coaches in those programs discourage participation in football...but in the end, don't you think that a major factor in their decision to not go out for football in high school really comes down to the student-athletes previous experience in youth or middle school football? If they got hammered every season in their younger years, their belief in their ability to succeed in football would have to be at a very low ebb...and they ask themselves...why should I go through this again? So my question to you guys is this: If you are going into a "Down Program" where the participation numbers are low, shouldn't you place as much of your focus on up-grading your lower level programs as you plan to do with the varsity program? Obviously, if your high school participation numbers are competitive with the other teams in your league...then your concern regarding up-grading those lower level programs probably should not require much of your time. Absolutely. Vetting the junior high and youth programs should be a high priority. And, it's really not that difficult; just make sure you don't have a$$holes coaching down there. Those guys have two priorities: teach fundamentals and get the kids playing time. For as easy as that sounds a lot of schools struggle with it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 12, 2023 9:04:47 GMT -6
Absolutely. Vetting the junior high and youth programs should be a high priority. And, it's really not that difficult; just make sure you don't have a$$holes coaching down there. Those guys have two priorities: teach fundamentals and get the kids playing time. For as easy as that sounds a lot of schools struggle with it. This has been argued ad nauseam on this board, but it is important to remember that not all youth/jr high programs are affiliated with a singular HS, nor do all youth/jr high programs have a coach/coaches that feel they should operate "differently" than a Varsity program with regards to playing time, development etc. Essentially not everyone believes or operates as if "Varsity high school" should play to win, but everyone else should operate just to service them. Now, regarding teaching fundamentals- yeah thats just bad coaching. Fundamentals will win you games, so guys who don't care about the future should still focus on fundamentals more than other aspects. But I always find it a bit ironic that a thread can contain replies talking about HS head coaches controlling and vetting Jr. High and Youth progams, and ALSO have replies saying "I have coached at 4+ different schools". If there is that much movement, were you at the school when those youth and jr high kids moved up?
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Post by Defcord on Feb 12, 2023 9:30:09 GMT -6
For as easy as that sounds a lot of schools struggle with it. This has been argued ad nauseam on this board, but it is important to remember that not all youth/jr high programs are affiliated with a singular HS, nor do all youth/jr high programs have a coach/coaches that feel they should operate "differently" than a Varsity program with regards to playing time, development etc. Essentially not everyone believes or operates as if "Varsity high school" should play to win, but everyone else should operate just to service them. Now, regarding teaching fundamentals- yeah thats just bad coaching. Fundamentals will win you games, so guys who don't care about the future should still focus on fundamentals more than other aspects. But I always find it a bit ironic that a thread can contain replies talking about HS head coaches controlling and vetting Jr. High and Youth progams, and ALSO have replies saying "I have coached at 4+ different schools". If there is that much movement, were you at the school when those youth and jr high kids moved up? I think it’s generally accepted that a middle school football program should be engaging in a way that kids want to continue playing football after they leave that program. Youth programs should as well. Along with that objective the programs should empower kids to play with great attitude and demeanor and hustle. Beyond this fundamentals should be prioritized. Regardless of the feeder set up or situation all of the above could and should be accomplished. And in my opinion all kids should get to play in every single game. Maybe this has and can be debated but I don’t see any great argument against it beyond ego. I understand there are complexities of situations that may disallow for complete vertical alignment but I don’t see why any of the above couldn’t be accomplished. I’m nomadic and have worked in multiple programs ranging from 3-5 years each. I don’t see why short time frames would not enable a coach to see kids transition from middle to high school. Most coaches observe the middle school programs games and practices at least a little bit and you only have to be around for one year for a group of 8th graders to become freshmen.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 12, 2023 18:28:12 GMT -6
I think it’s generally accepted that a middle school football program should be engaging in a way that kids want to continue playing football after they leave that program. Youth programs should as well. Along with that objective the programs should empower kids to play with great attitude and demeanor and hustle. Beyond this fundamentals should be prioritized. Regardless of the feeder set up or situation all of the above could and should be accomplished. Very noble outcomes and focuses. I would suggest the exact same should be said of HS VARSITY as well. Do you feel the same applies to Friday Nights as well? I don't disagree. As I said, all are noble goals, and should apply to any extra curricular endeavor regardless of age/grade level. It is just math. If you start at Jefferson High Year 0 and leave after year 2 ( 3 seasons), then those 7th and 8th graders aren't likely even on varsity when you leave. When you arrive at Lincoln High in year 3, You will be coaching Seniors, Juniors and Sophs that weren't "under you" in their lower level teams, and if you leave after 4 years, those who were in your "pipeline" may not be on the field much on Fridays during your regime (still underclassmen)
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Post by silkyice on Feb 12, 2023 19:49:45 GMT -6
I think it’s generally accepted that a middle school football program should be engaging in a way that kids want to continue playing football after they leave that program. Youth programs should as well. Along with that objective the programs should empower kids to play with great attitude and demeanor and hustle. Beyond this fundamentals should be prioritized. Regardless of the feeder set up or situation all of the above could and should be accomplished. Very noble outcomes and focuses. I would suggest the exact same should be said of HS VARSITY as well. Do you feel the same applies to Friday Nights as well? I don't disagree. As I said, all are noble goals, and should apply to any extra curricular endeavor regardless of age/grade level. It is just math. If you start at Jefferson High Year 0 and leave after year 2 ( 3 seasons), then those 7th and 8th graders aren't likely even on varsity when you leave. When you arrive at Lincoln High in year 3, You will be coaching Seniors, Juniors and Sophs that weren't "under you" in their lower level teams, and if you leave after 4 years, those who were in your "pipeline" may not be on the field much on Fridays during your regime (still underclassmen) I understand your logic, but it is flawed. One, HS varsity is the highest level that 95% (or more) of the kids can play. So it should be a culmination experience. Two, there is a big difference in the education process of 18 year olds and 14 year olds. Three, if 100% of your kids went to play college ball, they will not all go to the same school. Four, there is a thing called reality. Like or not. Whether it fits your worldview or not, HS ball is super important. MS ball is not. They make movies about HS ball. HS games are on ESPN. Get played in college stadiums. There are radio shows about. Newspaper articles. Recruiting services. Grown men get paid real money to coach high schools. Some might just get a $5000 stiped to be a head coach, but some get paid $160,000 a year with a truck, gas card, and $2000 housing allowance. There probably isn't a high school reunion that takes place where old games, plays, practices, coaches aren't discussed. People will sit around and talk about the state championship or rival game from 30-50 years ago in the barber shop, at church, at a bar. The head football coach in most schools is literally the most well known person in the entire school and some cases entire county or city. Any of the sh&t going on with MS ball?
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 12, 2023 20:15:06 GMT -6
Very noble outcomes and focuses. I would suggest the exact same should be said of HS VARSITY as well. Do you feel the same applies to Friday Nights as well? I don't disagree. As I said, all are noble goals, and should apply to any extra curricular endeavor regardless of age/grade level. It is just math. If you start at Jefferson High Year 0 and leave after year 2 ( 3 seasons), then those 7th and 8th graders aren't likely even on varsity when you leave. When you arrive at Lincoln High in year 3, You will be coaching Seniors, Juniors and Sophs that weren't "under you" in their lower level teams, and if you leave after 4 years, those who were in your "pipeline" may not be on the field much on Fridays during your regime (still underclassmen) I understand your logic, but it is flawed. One, HS varsity is the highest level that 95% (or more) of the kids can play. So it should be a culmination experience. Two, there is a big difference in the education process of 18 year olds and 14 year olds. Three, if 100% of your kids went to play college ball, they will not all go to the same school. Four, there is a thing called reality. Like or not. Whether it fits your worldview or not, HS ball is super important. MS ball is not. They make movies about HS ball. HS games are on ESPN. Get played in college stadiums. There are radio shows about. Newspaper articles. Recruiting services. Grown men get paid real money to coach high schools. Some might just get a $5000 stiped to be a head coach, but some get paid $160,000 a year with a truck, gas card, and $2000 housing allowance. There probably isn't a high school reunion that takes place where old games, plays, practices, coaches aren't discussed. People will sit around and talk about the state championship or rival game from 30-50 years ago in the barber shop, at church, at a bar. The head football coach in most schools is literally the most well known person in the entire school and some cases entire county or city. Any of the sh&t going on with MS ball? Respecfully silky, the only people who think HS football is "super important" are HS football coaches. The Sh&t given to any of our players who brought up their HS days was merciless. Wear a HS letter jacket in public past HS and the side eye is strong. Wear a HS football ring to a business meeting and you will be laughed out of the board room. While being more emphasized than lower levels, don't make the mistake of it being important. Also, regarding point #1, FAR FAR FAR more kids see their football experiences end at youth football/middle school. Regarding point 3 in many locations, if 100% of the kids from Middle school/jr high play HS ball, they do not all go to the same school. Your statement that the HFC is the most well known person in the school/county city is one of extreme bias--Most people nationwide don't think or act like those in Alabama or other Southern football hotspots.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 12, 2023 20:39:27 GMT -6
I understand your logic, but it is flawed. One, HS varsity is the highest level that 95% (or more) of the kids can play. So it should be a culmination experience. Two, there is a big difference in the education process of 18 year olds and 14 year olds. Three, if 100% of your kids went to play college ball, they will not all go to the same school. Four, there is a thing called reality. Like or not. Whether it fits your worldview or not, HS ball is super important. MS ball is not. They make movies about HS ball. HS games are on ESPN. Get played in college stadiums. There are radio shows about. Newspaper articles. Recruiting services. Grown men get paid real money to coach high schools. Some might just get a $5000 stiped to be a head coach, but some get paid $160,000 a year with a truck, gas card, and $2000 housing allowance. There probably isn't a high school reunion that takes place where old games, plays, practices, coaches aren't discussed. People will sit around and talk about the state championship or rival game from 30-50 years ago in the barber shop, at church, at a bar. The head football coach in most schools is literally the most well known person in the entire school and some cases entire county or city. Any of the sh&t going on with MS ball? Respecfully silky, the only people who think HS football is "super important" are HS football coaches. The Sh&t given to any of our players who brought up their HS days was merciless. Wear a HS letter jacket in public past HS and the side eye is strong. Wear a HS football ring to a business meeting and you will be laughed out of the board room. While being more emphasized than lower levels, don't make the mistake of it being important. Also, regarding point #1, FAR FAR FAR more kids see their football experiences end at youth football/middle school. Regarding point 3 in many locations, if 100% of the kids from Middle school/jr high play HS ball, they do not all go to the same school. Your statement that the HFC is the most well known person in the school/county city is one of extreme bias--Most people nationwide don't think or act like those in Alabama or other Southern football hotspots. I thought we were discussing MS ball importance compared to HS ball. Not HS ball compare to life. I never said it was "super important". Although for many it is. And that doesn't mean it isn't important at all. I don't know anyone who would wear their letter jacket after high school or a high school ring to a business meeting. If I did, they would get side eye. Ha. And no one is saying that someone brings up their hs ball to a stranger. I meant when old teammates get together, it many times still gets discussed. Obviously more people play football at the lower levels than high school. That is true in literally everything. And there can be many reasons for that, but the main one is that football isn't for everyone. You have become very dismissive of hs football. That is fine. But it still is on ESPN. It is still in the newspapers. They still make movies about it. And pick any location in America. I bet that more locals still know who the hs football coach is there over the principal. Of course that isn't true 100%, but...
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Post by freezeoption on Feb 12, 2023 20:42:30 GMT -6
Don't forget the movie Little Giants
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 12, 2023 21:36:10 GMT -6
I never said it was "super important". Four, there is a thing called reality. Like or not. Whether it fits your worldview or not, HS ball is super important. MS ball is not. I am just framing it in the "you need to set up the youth program/jr high program so that it benefits ME (HS coach) the most" mindset. As far as being dismissive, I think Madden put it in perspective in one of his books when he described his shock to discover that people were out boating on the Bay when the Raiders were playing. When he was "in the machine" he couldn't fathom anyone not being invested. I think many coaches feel the same way. I know I once did. Hell, I remember the first time I watched a HS game after graduating HS- I was flabbergasted to sit in the stands and realize that the game was just a background event for socializing. Yes, there is a much greater emphasis on HS than JR high/middle school/youth. I think one could argue there is an even GREATER differential between college and HS ball though. I would be interested in seeing the percentages of youth players who actually PLAY HS football (as opposed to just being on a team) compared to HS to College. Yet as has been mentioned many times--it would be ridiculous to even fathom that HS coaches should operate to develop players for Saturday afternoons whether it be schemes, or equalizing playing time to maximize development (particularly for late bloomers) etc.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 12, 2023 23:09:07 GMT -6
I never said it was "super important". Four, there is a thing called reality. Like or not. Whether it fits your worldview or not, HS ball is super important. MS ball is not. I am just framing it in the "you need to set up the youth program/jr high program so that it benefits ME (HS coach) the most" mindset. As far as being dismissive, I think Madden put it in perspective in one of his books when he described his shock to discover that people were out boating on the Bay when the Raiders were playing. When he was "in the machine" he couldn't fathom anyone not being invested. I think many coaches feel the same way. I know I once did. Hell, I remember the first time I watched a HS game after graduating HS- I was flabbergasted to sit in the stands and realize that the game was just a background event for socializing. Yes, there is a much greater emphasis on HS than JR high/middle school/youth. I think one could argue there is an even GREATER differential between college and HS ball though. I would be interested in seeing the percentages of youth players who actually PLAY HS football (as opposed to just being on a team) compared to HS to College. Yet as has been mentioned many times--it would be ridiculous to even fathom that HS coaches should operate to develop players for Saturday afternoons whether it be schemes, or equalizing playing time to maximize development (particularly for late bloomers) etc. Well you got me there on my own words. My intent was more on a comparison with MS, not life. But HS ball is still very important to many people, towns, schools, etc. Sports are important. And there is little doubt to which sport is most popular in high school. To your point on MS, I think that fundamentals and keeping the players out is way more important than scheme. I don’t think every kid should necessarily play every game. Playing time should be earned and it many ways, it is a safety issue. An underdeveloped 7th grader who doesn’t know how to block or tackle properly (and doesn’t really want to) shouldn’t be on the field against developed aggressive 8th graders. In truth, many of those kids don’t want to get in. And if there was a rule that every kid had to play, team size could go DOWN. Many (most?) 7th graders are fine without getting in and waiting their turn the next year. Of course, you also have 7th graders who are some of your best players. The HS late bloomer for college thing doesn’t make sense. If you keep a MS player out so he plays HS ball and he is a late bloomer, then that means he helps your team as a HS player. But there was no team to make or get recruited to. He just keep playing and developed. HS teams don’t have cuts. You can be on the team. How can a kid who is a late bloomer in college all the sudden help a college team? He isnt going to be on that college team. You don’t just stay on the HS team, not be any good, and then end up on a college team. That would be like saying a college team should play everyone so that if a bad college player is a super late bloomer that he will help his NFL team that he is on. Well, how does he get on that NFL team? The difference is, you can be on your HS team no matter who bad you are, so if you are a late bloomer, boom, you are on the team and can help. Also, while kids can be a late bloomer even in college, it isn’t like they were so bad they couldn’t help their HS team. It just means they were a stud HS player who had to walk on or go juco or D2 and ended up being great in college.
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Post by CS on Feb 13, 2023 5:19:40 GMT -6
I am just framing it in the "you need to set up the youth program/jr high program so that it benefits ME (HS coach) the most" mindset. As far as being dismissive, I think Madden put it in perspective in one of his books when he described his shock to discover that people were out boating on the Bay when the Raiders were playing. When he was "in the machine" he couldn't fathom anyone not being invested. I think many coaches feel the same way. I know I once did. Hell, I remember the first time I watched a HS game after graduating HS- I was flabbergasted to sit in the stands and realize that the game was just a background event for socializing. Yes, there is a much greater emphasis on HS than JR high/middle school/youth. I think one could argue there is an even GREATER differential between college and HS ball though. I would be interested in seeing the percentages of youth players who actually PLAY HS football (as opposed to just being on a team) compared to HS to College. Yet as has been mentioned many times--it would be ridiculous to even fathom that HS coaches should operate to develop players for Saturday afternoons whether it be schemes, or equalizing playing time to maximize development (particularly for late bloomers) etc. Well you got me there on my own words. My intent was more on a comparison with MS, not life. But HS ball is still very important to many people, towns, schools, etc. Sports are important. And there is little doubt to which sport is most popular in high school. To your point on MS, I think that fundamentals and keeping the players out is way more important than scheme. I don’t think every kid should necessarily play every game. Playing time should be earned and it many ways, it is a safety issue. An underdeveloped 7th grader who doesn’t know how to block or tackle properly (and doesn’t really want to) shouldn’t be on the field against developed aggressive 8th graders. In truth, many of those kids don’t want to get in. And if there was a rule that every kid had to play, team size could go DOWN. Many (most?) 7th graders are fine without getting in and waiting their turn the next year. Of course, you also have 7th graders who are some of your best players. The HS late bloomer for college thing doesn’t make sense. If you keep a MS player out so he plays HS ball and he is a late bloomer, then that means he helps your team as a HS player. But there was no team to make or get recruited to. He just keep playing and developed. HS teams don’t have cuts. You can be on the team. How can a kid who is a late bloomer in college all the sudden help a college team? He isnt going to be on that college team. You don’t just stay on the HS team, not be any good, and then end up on a college team. That would be like saying a college team should play everyone so that if a bad college player is a super late bloomer that he will help his NFL team that he is on. Well, how does he get on that NFL team? The difference is, you can be on your HS team no matter who bad you are, so if you are a late bloomer, boom, you are on the team and can help. Also, while kids can be a late bloomer even in college, it isn’t like they were so bad they couldn’t help their HS team. It just means they were a stud HS player who had to walk on or go juco or D2 and ended up being great in college. Spot on. Some kids are made to play by their parents and some just need a place to be and want to be around the team but have zero motivation to play. I was at a small school once and we had a kid lose his helmet during the play. By rule he has to come out and we really didn’t have anyone available to go in except this small kid who never played. We practically had to pick him up and throw him in the game for one play. This was an eye opener for me as a young coach
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Post by coachcb on Feb 13, 2023 9:25:02 GMT -6
Absolutely. Vetting the junior high and youth programs should be a high priority. And, it's really not that difficult; just make sure you don't have a$$holes coaching down there. Those guys have two priorities: teach fundamentals and get the kids playing time. For as easy as that sounds a lot of schools struggle with it.
Don't I know it. If I'm being really honest, managing our junior high staff was one of the worst parts of my HC gig here. Babysitting them during a 9am Saturday game after getting off of the bus at 3am wasn't cool. I made it clear that they were to play all of the kids but that fell on deaf ears. They'd only do it if I was sitting on top of them.
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Post by silkyice on Feb 13, 2023 10:14:45 GMT -6
It is just math. If you start at Jefferson High Year 0 and leave after year 2 ( 3 seasons), then those 7th and 8th graders aren't likely even on varsity when you leave. When you arrive at Lincoln High in year 3, You will be coaching Seniors, Juniors and Sophs that weren't "under you" in their lower level teams, and if you leave after 4 years, those who were in your "pipeline" may not be on the field much on Fridays during your regime (still underclassmen) I agree completely here. This is why I believe that just having good fundamentals and hopefully keeping as many playing football is important here. This does not equate to everyone plays every game. Play them what they have earned and are capable of safely doing. This does not mean only the best play. If a kid has earned some playing time, he should play. This is of course subjective. Winning here is also important. There is no better way to keep kids out than winning. I do NOT mean win at ALL COST. I really don't care what they do scheme wise. 1) We might change schemes!! We are changing to the spread this year from the wing t. Multiple reasons. 2) Are they really going to teach our schemes correctly? I am pretty dang picky and precise. I would rather them do something different then what we do incorrectly. 3) I have taken over programs and have had immediate success. Which means what they did in MS was largely irrelevant. 4) Most coaches do not stay that long, so ... BUT, I do think JV should run exactly what we run and all the kids should play. For us, the JV players are the 9th, 10th, 11th grade varsity players that don't play on Friday nights. They all get to play. They are running our schemes. We coach them. We don't really care about the score. Just realized something, in essence, we do play everybody (almost) on the varsity because we have JV games.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 13, 2023 10:31:21 GMT -6
It is just math. If you start at Jefferson High Year 0 and leave after year 2 ( 3 seasons), then those 7th and 8th graders aren't likely even on varsity when you leave. When you arrive at Lincoln High in year 3, You will be coaching Seniors, Juniors and Sophs that weren't "under you" in their lower level teams, and if you leave after 4 years, those who were in your "pipeline" may not be on the field much on Fridays during your regime (still underclassmen) I agree completely here. This is why I believe that just having good fundamentals and hopefully keeping as many playing football is important here. This does not equate to everyone plays every game. Play them what they have earned and are capable of safely doing. This does not mean only the best play. If a kid has earned some playing time, he should play. This is of course subjective. Winning here is also important. There is no better way to keep kids out than winning. I do NOT mean win at ALL COST. I really don't care what they do scheme wise. 1) We might change schemes!! We are changing to the spread this year from the wing t. Multiple reasons. 2) Are they really going to teach our schemes correctly? I am pretty dang picky and precise. I would rather them do something different then what we do incorrectly. 3) I have taken over programs and have had immediate success. Which means what they did in MS was largely irrelevant. 4) Most coaches do not stay that long, so ... BUT, I do think JV should run exactly what we run and all the kids should play. For us, the JV players are the 9th, 10th, 11th grade varsity players that don't play on Friday nights. They all get to play. They are running our schemes. We coach them. We don't really care about the score. Just realized something, in essence, we do play everybody (almost) on the varsity because we have JV games. Sounds like a very well run and organized program. And the results obviously speak for themselves.
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Post by Defcord on Feb 13, 2023 11:26:04 GMT -6
I think it’s generally accepted that a middle school football program should be engaging in a way that kids want to continue playing football after they leave that program. Youth programs should as well. Along with that objective the programs should empower kids to play with great attitude and demeanor and hustle. Beyond this fundamentals should be prioritized. Regardless of the feeder set up or situation all of the above could and should be accomplished. Very noble outcomes and focuses. I would suggest the exact same should be said of HS VARSITY as well. Do you feel the same applies to Friday Nights as well? I don't disagree. As I said, all are noble goals, and should apply to any extra curricular endeavor regardless of age/grade level. It is just math. If you start at Jefferson High Year 0 and leave after year 2 ( 3 seasons), then those 7th and 8th graders aren't likely even on varsity when you leave. When you arrive at Lincoln High in year 3, You will be coaching Seniors, Juniors and Sophs that weren't "under you" in their lower level teams, and if you leave after 4 years, those who were in your "pipeline" may not be on the field much on Fridays during your regime (still underclassmen) I am a little late back into the party. I do think varsity programs should do their best to play every kid as often as possible. Some programs the coaches' jobs are on the line so I understand deterring from that goal. I am not saying play them equally, but playing them goes a long way in many accomplishing program goals. Parent and player buy-in both improve when kids get to play regularly. Overall team morale will also increase. In the cases when kids aren't going to play every game I do think there should be a clear expectation of playing time. My guys know going into a game where they stand. Some guys are going to start and play the whole way. Some guys are going to be on a rotation. Some guys are going to play when we need them. And some guys are only going to play if the game gets to a point that the game is no longer competitive. There's no surprises. I also encourage the players to let their parents know what their role is so that there is no surprises for the parents either. I put my money where my mouth is on this I believe. There have been a handful of games where we had a team shutout late with a big lead and put our guys who don't get a lot of time in and lost the shut out. One head coach I worked for didn't agree with the philosophy and thought shutouts should be protected. To me that was ego. I care a lot more about the kids than I do some number on the scoreboard.
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Post by bulldogsdc on Feb 13, 2023 13:32:14 GMT -6
Clinic Coach posted the answer to this on Twitter today. problem solved.
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Post by sweep26 on Feb 16, 2023 10:34:14 GMT -6
Clinic Coach posted the answer to this on Twitter today. problem solved. And, his answer was............ ??
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Post by 19delta on Feb 17, 2023 11:14:39 GMT -6
That, and stop beating yourself. Don't do stupid things. I'd try to figure out who can snap and who can kick before preseason. Been on some bad teams and that been a common issue. Great quote from Hugh Wyatt: “Stop sucking”. 😂
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Post by bulldogsdc on Feb 20, 2023 7:35:35 GMT -6
Clinic Coach posted the answer to this on Twitter today. problem solved. And, his answer was............ ?? Paint stuff, change the helmet, cool new hashtag, etc.
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Post by irishdog on Feb 20, 2023 16:28:01 GMT -6
Find an older experienced coach who would be willing to serve in more of an advisory capacity. Guys who have been through the battles, and the grind, who are either retired, or close to it who want to help out, provide experience, and contribute to rebuilding the program. Guys who aren't necessarily interested in titles. Guys who just want to coach and have some pocket money for gas. Guys you can lean on and learn from, who could offer ideas on practice formats, off-season programs, communications, the X's and O's, scheduling, equipment purchasing, funding, etc. Guys who more than likely can answer most of the questions being raised in this entire thread. Yes, there are a number of them out there.
I was fortunate in one school to have someone like that who provided some keen insights into many of those items, and more importantly into the community that helped me tremendously.
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Post by sweep26 on Feb 20, 2023 16:41:09 GMT -6
Find an older experienced coach who would be willing to serve in more of an advisory capacity. Guys who have been through the battles, and the grind, who are either retired, or close to it who want to help out, provide experience, and contribute to rebuilding the program. Guys who aren't necessarily interested in titles. Guys who just want to coach and have some pocket money for gas. Guys you can lean on and learn from, who could offer ideas on practice formats, off-season programs, communications, the X's and O's, scheduling, equipment purchasing, funding, etc. Guys who more than likely can answer most of the questions being raised in this entire thread. Yes, there are a number of them out there. I was fortunate in one school to have someone like that who provided some keen insights into many of those items, and more importantly into the community that helped me tremendously. Sage advice irishdog ... if there is a guy like that available, I would suggest that the school would be even better served it they would just hire that veteran coach to lead their program.
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Post by wolverine55 on Feb 20, 2023 17:28:08 GMT -6
And, his answer was............ ?? Paint stuff, change the helmet, cool new hashtag, etc. At the risk of hijacking the thread, is the painting the weightroom/lockerroom when taking over a job that common? No idea until I read some of the clinic coach tweets.
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