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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2023 18:39:00 GMT -6
Wasn't directed at me, but I will bite: 1) In many states, the long term benefits of public teaching (and likely employment in general) are being eroded. Pensions are being slashed/eliminated. Insurance costs increasing etc. 2) Accountability continually shifting from student to teacher. Many have compensation if not job security based on a VAM model (Value Added Model) that is heavily dependent on test scores. Very few other professions essentially mandate that the professional is responsible for making sure others "care" without having any remedies if they don't. 3)As the wealth inequality gap increases in our country, one natural result is even greater socioeconomic stratification of schools. More demographic changes and more "have or have not" situations meaning more concentrated poverty and all of the issues that come with that. 4) The change in staffing. I saw data showing that nationwide, school populations have increased about 15% the last 2 decades, classroom teacher staffing has increased about 13% (didn't even keep up), but central office/non classroom teacher staffing has increased over 100%! Instructional coaches, literacy specialists, interventionists, "behavior coaches", curriculum specialists, supervisors, directors etc! Also, just curious what compensation for similar professionals is in your area is compared to the figures you gave. Making 80K 9 years into the job might be considered pretty low in California in several professions. I couldnt tell you other professions for sure, I imagine there are a number of other professions that pay more after a decade than teaching does out here; but this is nothing new, teaching has always been on the low end of professional pay. I'd write it seems to have narrowed the gap though over the past couple decades. In regards to your #1 & #4, these are issues for all professions. The educational industrial complex (as you elude to in #4) is mirrored in lots of other professions, every profession justifies itself, as it contains the experts who promote it, so you get these ancillary supporters who make their money not by doing he actual work. I actually like #2, to an extent, in that we at least have some sort of accountability on teachers. Though I agree it should not be based on 'making kids care' I have always despised the old teacher mantra, "it is my job to teach and their (the students) job to learn". Not because it is technically false, rather that it is often repeated by teachers who don't put forth a decent effort to do a good job. You know, the ones whose lesson plan is have students read pages 47-63 & answer questions 1-7. There is no engagement, no rigor (outside of busy work), no actual educating outside of what a home-school mom and a textbook could do. Essentially they do a poor job of their job and complain about kids today. Lets start at the bottom Find another profession with a similar situation to this : Kids don't bother to go to school--don't bother to even take standardized test, TEACHER gets a zero and a poor performance review. Now, regarding the pay issue, yes it has always been a lower paying profession (by design- also why it is a heavily female dominated profession). HOWEVER, there was always a "social contract" if you will. Teacher "gives" 30 years of their life to the public through teaching, and then are taken care of on the backend with high quality retirement benefits. Now, for many areas, the low pay is still there relative to other professions requiring the same level of education or training--but it doesn't get made up on the back end. And I didn't even get started on work conditions or SPED. |
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Post by kylem56 on Jan 1, 2023 19:19:04 GMT -6
-How did you get into coaching and why? I got into coaching because of my high school football coach. He was a father figure to me and probaly saved my life. While I attended the private school in town, I grew up in a rough neighborhood and I could have easily gone another way but he held me to a higher standard. My dad was a football coach as well. I can't remember a free fall Friday night since I was around 8-9 years old (I am 36 now) and I didnt know any other way.
-What do you think is the most overlooked aspect of coaching? Relationship building. With the amount of video clinics, books, coaches clinics, etc. You can self study to be the best X and O's coach on your staff but it means nothing if you can't build relationships and most importantly, find multiple ways to teach what you are trying to communicate. Don't try to emulate anyone else. Learn to be comfortable teaching/coaching within your own personality but be confident in what you do.
-What is something you wished you knew before you started coaching / What is something you wish you could tell your younger self? It is better to learn from successful coaches for next to zero money then take a stipend at a school that may just win 1-2 games a year and have a rotating door of coaches.
Find mentors and beg to learn from them.
God Bless- Kyle
@coachmcelvany on twitter
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Post by coachks on Jan 2, 2023 15:04:03 GMT -6
My .02
The pay is not as bad as people like to claim.
Most of the horror stories leave out some key piece of information about the story teller being an idiot.
Most of the workload complaints are nonsense.
Here is reality as I have seen:
1) You first 2-3 years are going to be a lot of work while you learn how to teach. This is true for every career. Once you understand your style and get comfortable with the material for a class - you're "prep" time is minimal for each day. Once you have your material, you will update and recycle it, add this or that every year, but largely it is done before the year starts.
2) Most teachers are not bright. Most of the nonsense directives are aimed at the idiots. APs are dumber.
3) Have data. Having data is the lowest hanging fruit possible to get admin and the rest of your department to leave you alone as a teacher. Remember point #2. Do you know how easy it is to "have data?" Buy zipgrade (8 whole dollars) Give a quiz (err, sorry, formative assessment), it will tell you the top 2-3 missed questions were (I did 15 question vocab quizzes for world history). Figure out what standard it is. Take 15 minutes when the rest of the class is working on some other assignment, take the group who missed it and re-explain the words and context and have the kids practice with those words (quizlet is the best, but vocab boxes work as well). You have now remediated a standard and used data to drive learning. Have them take the quiz again. They will get those questions right, you have no remediated, used data and shown growth. The kids are now proficient in the standard (80%.. that's 4 out of 5 words fyi for whatever standard you pick). First observation, have this data (On Standard 3 jimmy, tommy, susie and meghan only scored .... on standard 2.5, but after we remeidated it on day x, they scored y and were now proficient). At some future PLT, PLC or staff meeting explain this process. You are now a superstar, very serious educator because you can use data to remediate. This takes, and I'm not joking, 10 ?? total minutes to find out and organize. However, remember point #2.
4) There will be members of the faculty that do not like coaches. Ignore them. There will be members of the faculty that will come to you everytime some player forgets to bring a pencil to class. Make sure the teacher understands you think that is important, make a big tough show about it, then let it go (talk to the kid about putting in effort, it looks bad ect... but this is not the hill to die on). Remember point #2.
5) Volunteer for some {censored} duty / academic night / chaperone ect early in the year. People are going to assume "all he cares about is football," so sacrifice one evening early on to build good will.
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Post by fantom on Jan 2, 2023 16:29:16 GMT -6
My .02 The pay is not as bad as people like to claim. Most of the horror stories leave out some key piece of information about the story teller being an idiot. Most of the workload complaints are nonsense. Here is reality as I have seen: 1) You first 2-3 years are going to be a lot of work while you learn how to teach. This is true for every career. Once you understand your style and get comfortable with the material for a class - you're "prep" time is minimal for each day. Once you have your material, you will update and recycle it, add this or that every year, but largely it is done before the year starts. 2) Most teachers are not bright. Most of the nonsense directives are aimed at the idiots. APs are dumber. 3) Have data. Having data is the lowest hanging fruit possible to get admin and the rest of your department to leave you alone as a teacher. Remember point #2. Do you know how easy it is to "have data?" Buy zipgrade (8 whole dollars) Give a quiz (err, sorry, formative assessment), it will tell you the top 2-3 missed questions were (I did 15 question vocab quizzes for world history). Figure out what standard it is. Take 15 minutes when the rest of the class is working on some other assignment, take the group who missed it and re-explain the words and context and have the kids practice with those words (quizlet is the best, but vocab boxes work as well). You have now remediated a standard and used data to drive learning. Have them take the quiz again. They will get those questions right, you have no remediated, used data and shown growth. The kids are now proficient in the standard (80%.. that's 4 out of 5 words fyi for whatever standard you pick). First observation, have this data (On Standard 3 jimmy, tommy, susie and meghan only scored .... on standard 2.5, but after we remeidated it on day x, they scored y and were now proficient). At some future PLT, PLC or staff meeting explain this process. You are now a superstar, very serious educator because you can use data to remediate. This takes, and I'm not joking, 10 ?? total minutes to find out and organize. However, remember point #2. 4) There will be members of the faculty that do not like coaches. Ignore them. There will be members of the faculty that will come to you everytime some player forgets to bring a pencil to class. Make sure the teacher understands you think that is important, make a big tough show about it, then let it go (talk to the kid about putting in effort, it looks bad ect... but this is not the hill to die on). Remember point #2. 5) Volunteer for some {censored} duty / academic night / chaperone ect early in the year. People are going to assume "all he cares about is football," so sacrifice one evening early on to build good will. After reading point #2 I can't imagine why some teachers might not like you. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 3, 2023 10:08:57 GMT -6
-How did you get into coaching and why? -What do you think is the most overlooked aspect of coaching? -What is something you wished you knew before you started coaching / What is something you wish you could tell your younger self? I would really appreciate any guidance, Jon-Daniel.
1. A buddy of mine was coaching a youth football team in the fall of my freshman year of college. He asked me to help out and I jumped at the chance. I was hooked from there. The next spring, I ended up coaching middle school track and field as a part of a class.
2. Coaching is teaching. There can be a heavy focus on Xs and Os in the game which detracts from the basics of teaching skills.
3. See #2. It took me awhile to learn to break down the skills and teach them properly.
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Post by 21bucksweep on Jan 3, 2023 13:15:27 GMT -6
Gotta disagree on this one. I did my student teaching here in California, back when there wasnt a teacher shortage and california had MANY hoops to jump through. That student teaching year had no extra time, but every year since its been fine. Teach history, coach, raised a family, had time for friends....and did them all well. Just be organized and efficient. Keep your good lessons, improve the mediocre ones. Definitely doable. I did mine in History as mentioned above, and also in California. It's doable forsure, and once you get rollin it will be alright, i suppose i was emphasizing that coaching while doing student teaching in History would be awful with all the stupid tests you have to do in student teaching now. I also did my student teaching in History last spring. I don't think it would have been possible at all for me to coach during my teaching semester. Midnight was pretty routine for getting everything prepared between lesson plans and assignments for my college course. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 4, 2023 9:25:11 GMT -6
Definitely doable. I did mine in History as mentioned above, and also in California. It's doable forsure, and once you get rollin it will be alright, i suppose i was emphasizing that coaching while doing student teaching in History would be awful with all the stupid tests you have to do in student teaching now. I also did my student teaching in History last spring. I don't think it would have been possible at all for me to coach during my teaching semester. Midnight was pretty routine for getting everything prepared between lesson plans and assignments for my college course.
It becomes easier the longer you teach. You'll have your curriculum and materials together, lessons established, etc..etc.. You'll also figure out little "tricks" that'll make that fall semester more manageable.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 4, 2023 9:55:34 GMT -6
My .02 The pay is not as bad as people like to claim. I think this varies widely- both by location and also by comparison to other careers that require similar entry qualifications. I would say it isn’t a “claim” - as most public school salary schedules are public information. To be fair though-most ALSO do not take the fact that in many cases teachers get paid for 181-190 work days, and the general public is around 225-235. I have that argument a lot with peers. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 4, 2023 10:13:45 GMT -6
My .02 The pay is not as bad as people like to claim. I think this varies widely- both by location and also by comparison to other careers that require similar entry qualifications. I would say it isn’t a “claim” - as most public school salary schedules are public information. To be fair though-most ALSO do not take the fact that in many cases teachers get paid for 181-190 work days, and the general public is around 225-235. I have that argument a lot with peers.
Yeah, that pay scale can look ugly for a first year teacher with a bachelor's degree. Pick up a masters and a few years under your belt and the financial situation brightens considerably. And, our state's teacher pension is exceptional; I can retire comfortably at 55 years old if I want to.
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Post by carookie on Jan 4, 2023 17:53:01 GMT -6
My .02 The pay is not as bad as people like to claim. I think this varies widely- both by location and also by comparison to other careers that require similar entry qualifications. I would say it isn’t a “claim” - as most public school salary schedules are public information. To be fair though-most ALSO do not take the fact that in many cases teachers get paid for 181-190 work days, and the general public is around 225-235. I have that argument a lot with peers. This is a big thing to me and my wife, we get to spend a LOT more time with our children than do many other parents. We just got three weeks off with our whole family. Not many other professions wouldve offered me this opportunity |
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Post by jml on Jan 4, 2023 19:16:32 GMT -6
I think this varies widely- both by location and also by comparison to other careers that require similar entry qualifications. I would say it isn’t a “claim” - as most public school salary schedules are public information. To be fair though-most ALSO do not take the fact that in many cases teachers get paid for 181-190 work days, and the general public is around 225-235. I have that argument a lot with peers.
Yeah, that pay scale can look ugly for a first year teacher with a bachelor's degree. Pick up a masters and a few years under your belt and the financial situation brightens considerably. And, our state's teacher pension is exceptional; I can retire comfortably at 55 years old if I want to.
What state is this? Most states use to be like this, but few still are... |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 4, 2023 19:25:58 GMT -6
I think this varies widely- both by location and also by comparison to other careers that require similar entry qualifications. I would say it isn’t a “claim” - as most public school salary schedules are public information. To be fair though-most ALSO do not take the fact that in many cases teachers get paid for 181-190 work days, and the general public is around 225-235. I have that argument a lot with peers.
Yeah, that pay scale can look ugly for a first year teacher with a bachelor's degree. Pick up a masters and a few years under your belt and the financial situation brightens considerably. And, our state's teacher pension is exceptional; I can retire comfortably at 55 years old if I want to.
I believe that salary schedule is going to vary considerably from place to place as well. In my district, the pay is pretty competitive amongst other school districts-and the starting pay is not significantly lower than many other professions starting with a bachelors. However none of the higher paying districts (such as mine) really pay for experience or higher education. In my district the difference in 25 years of experience might be $10,000 a year. |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 5, 2023 8:25:36 GMT -6
Yeah, that pay scale can look ugly for a first year teacher with a bachelor's degree. Pick up a masters and a few years under your belt and the financial situation brightens considerably. And, our state's teacher pension is exceptional; I can retire comfortably at 55 years old if I want to.
What state is this? Most states use to be like this, but few still are...
Montana
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Post by coachcb on Jan 5, 2023 9:13:50 GMT -6
Yeah, that pay scale can look ugly for a first year teacher with a bachelor's degree. Pick up a masters and a few years under your belt and the financial situation brightens considerably. And, our state's teacher pension is exceptional; I can retire comfortably at 55 years old if I want to.
I believe that salary schedule is going to vary considerably from place to place as well. In my district, the pay is pretty competitive amongst other school districts-and the starting pay is not significantly lower than many other professions starting with a bachelors. However none of the higher paying districts (such as mine) really pay for experience or higher education. In my district the difference in 25 years of experience might be $10,000 a year.
The first year/bachelors step varies by around $10k between the lowest and highest paying schools in this state. But, there's a marked increase when a teacher gets a masters as there's more steps on the pay scale. A teacher with a bachelors and no further education will typically stop getting a pay raise after 7 years. One with a masters will keep getting bumps for 20+ years. So, the difference in pay is typically $20k-$30k per year.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 5, 2023 9:45:55 GMT -6
I believe that salary schedule is going to vary considerably from place to place as well. In my district, the pay is pretty competitive amongst other school districts-and the starting pay is not significantly lower than many other professions starting with a bachelors. However none of the higher paying districts (such as mine) really pay for experience or higher education. In my district the difference in 25 years of experience might be $10,000 a year.
The first year/bachelors step varies by around $10k between the lowest and highest paying schools in this state. But, there's a marked increase when a teacher gets a masters as there's more steps on the pay scale. A teacher with a bachelors and no further education will typically stop getting a pay raise after 7 years. One with a masters will keep getting bumps for 20+ years. So, the difference in pay is typically $20k-$30k per year.
Interesting- My district went the opposite route - there is very little financial incentive for obtaining a masters. — for those who obtained masters after 2014 I believe the difference is $1,000 in annual salary |
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Post by coachcb on Jan 5, 2023 10:11:12 GMT -6
The first year/bachelors step varies by around $10k between the lowest and highest paying schools in this state. But, there's a marked increase when a teacher gets a masters as there's more steps on the pay scale. A teacher with a bachelors and no further education will typically stop getting a pay raise after 7 years. One with a masters will keep getting bumps for 20+ years. So, the difference in pay is typically $20k-$30k per year.
Interesting- My district went the opposite route - there is very little financial incentive for obtaining a masters.
There's a huge upside to continuing education in this state. Most districts will keep sliding you over on the lanes as you work towards a second Masters degree as well. This is typically fluff on those scales as few teachers actually push get a second Masters. I imagine this is a contract negotiation tactic to distract folks from the cap on years/steps for those who stick with a Bachelors degree. People don't look a the minimum they'll make in a district; they look at the maximum.
That cap on a Bachelors is s stickler when you go to the bargaining table though. Many teachers want steps/years added to that first lane and the school board I negotiated with fought it tooth and nail. They put a premium on that Masters degree and didn't care that they'd pay out a lot less in the long run if teachers stuck with their Bachelors. I understand that to a point as I felt my Masters degree made me a better educator but there's other teachers who will admit that theirs didn't help them out much. Other than boost their pay.
I do know a few teachers who've gotten a doctorate in education and not only been paid well by the district, but also taught classes at local university for extra cash.
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Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 5, 2023 10:42:07 GMT -6
Hey Coaches, I am currently a college student pursuing a degree in Secondary Education for English but as you can assume by my presence here, football is something I truly have a passion for. I really want to get into coaching once I start my student-teaching program in about half a year so I just wanted to ask some questions about coaching! -How did you get into coaching and why? -What do you think is the most overlooked aspect of coaching? -What is something you wished you knew before you started coaching / What is something you wish you could tell your younger self? I would really appreciate any guidance, Jon-Daniel. 1. I knew at young age... probably 6th grade that I wanted to be a coach. I drew offenses and defenses constantly even tho back then I didnt know much about it. Another thing that pushed me to teaching was my dad. He was a factory worker...HATED EVERY SECOND he was at work... always instilled into me to pick profession that I enjoyed and had lots of time off. As others have said here, teaching is much different now than when I got into gig, but still pretty good gig. I dont know many jobs in my area that I can make what I make and get 2 months off in summer 2 and half at christmas week and thanksgiving& week in spring. And I know its not completely off bc I have coaching duties but they are not all day. I love having same schedule as kids and getting to experience things with them. Teaching has some terrible things to deal with in some areas but in others its not bad at all. 2. Most overlooked aspect is that the x's and o's is only about 20% of what you do and I am high balling it. dealing with kids parents boosters admin etc is alot of what you do along with grades and discipline. But still a great gig IMHO 3. I wish I had relaxed more when I was young and focused on teaching kids more individually. Developing kids is the single most underdeveloped coaching trait in the job. Don't just rely on the kids talent bc it will eventually run out. As far as the college or high school direction... here is my 2 cents... If you plan to be family man... see your kids alot... hang out with old buddies... high school is the way to go you prolly wont get filthy rich but you wont be poor either. If you want to try and get rich by coaching... go college route.... But understand... time away from family and kids will be drastically more... and you dont get rich over night usually its a major GRIND for 10 to 15 years to get to the money making jobs... I cant say which is best. I personally chose HS, & I love it. Teaching is something I do to get me an in to coach, but its not terrible either. some of it is just like any other job. Good Luck on your journey. BTW coaching my kids is pretty cool!!! |
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Post by freezeoption on Jan 8, 2023 12:42:04 GMT -6
I'm old. I got 31 years of teaching. Been coaching longer. Coached in high school middle school sports. Coached in college as a volunteer. Started teaching at 23. I could of retired last year at 54 but I moved to different state so lost some years but I can retire this year at 55. I won't cause my youngest is in 7th grade. If your getting into coaching or teaching to make money your in the wrong job but if your careful you can live a decent living. Our state pulls out 7 percent from our check and the schools match that so 14 percent goes into retirement every month. That includes our coaching check. Our school pays more for higher degrees and reimburses for taking college classes. You need to work the system to your benefit.
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