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Post by 33coach on Dec 2, 2022 14:44:31 GMT -6
An interesting case study, IMO, is Carthage HS, now Illini West in Illinois. For years and years they had no JFL/feeder. Their longtime HC retired in 2011 and they founded a JFL. Under the previous HC they won 6 state championships and got 2nd 4 times. In the past 10 seasons, they've only made the playoffs 5 times and only advanced past the 1st round twice. Just an interesting case study. No need for a feeder program if you can win in other ways. the other side of it is, i dont believe a feeder program really works. i want to challenge someone to prove me wrong on this...its the offseason now... the first day that your allowed to work with incoming freshman.... line up the starting offense and start calling your base plays... if they can execute them....then you have proven me wrong and vertical integration is critical... i bet you they cant. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2022 18:56:37 GMT -6
No need for a feeder program if you can win in other ways. the other side of it is, i dont believe a feeder program really works. i want to challenge someone to prove me wrong on this...its the offseason now... the first day that your allowed to work with incoming freshman.... line up the starting offense and start calling your base plays... if they can execute them....then you have proven me wrong and vertical integration is critical... i bet you they cant. Knowing the plays does not mean the kid or kids are ready to play varsity football in 9,10, 11th or 12 grade grade. If vertical integration is about learning plays, its missing the mark. I have been a part way to many years where we had kids who had no business playing varsity football. It is not about talent, because you cannot evaluate the talent. Why? Because THEY CANT GET INTO A STANCE, Much less COME OFF THE BALL, THEY HAVE NO FOOTBALL IQ, NONE. They have not lifted, in my last job, they did not eat. And he is going to play the guy who is going to Georgia, Bama, USC, Clemson. But this week we are going to line him up at guard, center, defensive end, cornerback, linebacker. And he has spent 2 or 3 years playing frosh, jv. We literally played 3 linemen who weighed a 140. Over the last 4 years We could not get away that. There is no scheme that covers up that against people we played against. |
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Post by carookie on Dec 2, 2022 21:13:52 GMT -6
No need for a feeder program if you can win in other ways. the other side of it is, i dont believe a feeder program really works. i want to challenge someone to prove me wrong on this...its the offseason now... the first day that your allowed to work with incoming freshman.... line up the starting offense and start calling your base plays... if they can execute them....then you have proven me wrong and vertical integration is critical... i bet you they cant. I think a more apt point of measurement would be there performance on the varsity level. In the end, frosh/jv are developmental leagues so I don't know why we'd measure how good they were then. The best bet would be to compare the performance of your feeder program kids at the varsity level vs the non feeder kids. All while trying to account for natural athletic ability (which would be hard to do) |
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Post by 33coach on Dec 2, 2022 23:46:59 GMT -6
the other side of it is, i dont believe a feeder program really works. i want to challenge someone to prove me wrong on this...its the offseason now... the first day that your allowed to work with incoming freshman.... line up the starting offense and start calling your base plays... if they can execute them....then you have proven me wrong and vertical integration is critical... i bet you they cant. Knowing the plays does not mean the kid or kids are ready to play varsity football in 9,10, 11th or 12 grade grade. If vertical integration is about learning plays, its missing the mark. then if thats the case....the guys who are like "the MS team MUST run my stuff." are full of it. its one or the other... either its critical that everyone runs the same systems because it creates familiarity.... OR... it doesnt. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2022 3:46:15 GMT -6
Knowing the plays does not mean the kid or kids are ready to play varsity football in 9,10, 11th or 12 grade grade. If vertical integration is about learning plays, its missing the mark. then if thats the case....the guys who are like "the MS team MUST run my stuff." are full of it. its one or the other... either its critical that everyone runs the same systems because it creates familiarity.... OR... it doesnt. There are things more important. Scheme does not make a kid READY for varsity football. |
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Post by 33coach on Dec 3, 2022 16:20:56 GMT -6
then if thats the case....the guys who are like "the MS team MUST run my stuff." are full of it. its one or the other... either its critical that everyone runs the same systems because it creates familiarity.... OR... it doesnt. There are things more important. Scheme does not make a kid READY for varsity football. i know that, but the vertical integration guys ive talked to always talk about scheme and terminology first.. which is why im so against it. |
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Post by carookie on Dec 3, 2022 17:55:01 GMT -6
There are things more important. Scheme does not make a kid READY for varsity football. i know that, but the vertical integration guys ive talked to always talk about scheme and terminology first.. which is why im so against it. I wonder to what extent college coaches would be more apt to recruit a high school player, because said player played at a HS that used the college's scheme and terminology? Or is it just important for the MS to HS step? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2022 17:57:27 GMT -6
i know that, but the vertical integration guys ive talked to always talk about scheme and terminology first.. which is why im so against it. I wonder to what extent college coaches would be more apt to recruit a high school player, because said player played at a HS that used the college's scheme and terminology? Or is it just important for the MS to HS step? They do not give a flip what scheme you use. size, speed, weight room, grades, sat, person. That is it. |
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Post by 33coach on Dec 3, 2022 18:23:24 GMT -6
i know that, but the vertical integration guys ive talked to always talk about scheme and terminology first.. which is why im so against it. I wonder to what extent college coaches would be more apt to recruit a high school player, because said player played at a HS that used the college's scheme and terminology? Or is it just important for the MS to HS step? thats the funny thing. ive only ever heard this argument from HS coaches. youth to MS... no one cares HS to college... no one cares College to Pro...no one cares it apparently only matters if your going from MS to HS. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 4, 2022 19:00:28 GMT -6
I wonder to what extent college coaches would be more apt to recruit a high school player, because said player played at a HS that used the college's scheme and terminology? Or is it just important for the MS to HS step? thats the funny thing. ive only ever heard this argument from HS coaches. youth to MS... no one cares HS to college... no one cares College to Pro...no one cares it apparently only matters if your going from MS to HS. Well, MS (or Jr High depending on terminology used) to HS is the only one of those 4 (with MAYBE the exception of youth in some cases) that has expected (even forced) matriculation in some areas. So while I don't believe it is of great importance, I can see why it is talked about. Because it has existed historically, and quite frankly in the cases where those kids from Jefferson Jr. High are going up to Jefferson High and only Jefferson High- I can't say that it doesn't make SENSE to try and implement it. But the scheme and terminology aren't the pillars I would start with. |
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Post by CanyonCoach on Dec 5, 2022 8:02:58 GMT -6
One of the things that we wanted to do was help youth and MS coaches and the kids not have to learn completely new stuff every year. Or as coaches to have to come up with a system every season or learn a new one themselves. Our youth coaches are given a basic playbook in 3/4 grade and 10 offensive drills and 10 defensive drills (blocking/tackling/agility/pursuit) They are given 5 drills for each position group and included as a part of of Glacier clinic staff so they can go find more if they choose. Our MS staff has had at least 1 new coach every year for the last 10 years (our MS turnover rate is insane on the teaching level too).
If they have something that they really want to do that isn't a part of what we give them...they do it. The MS has a better communication so they will ask how we would call it...then they run it.
The Big Box play book allows a ton of different schemes and it allows us to use or offensive plays for scout and speeds things up. Single wing is the only offense we have nothing for...
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Post by cwaltsmith on Dec 5, 2022 8:51:50 GMT -6
Knowing the plays does not mean the kid or kids are ready to play varsity football in 9,10, 11th or 12 grade grade. If vertical integration is about learning plays, its missing the mark. then if thats the case....the guys who are like "the MS team MUST run my stuff." are full of it. its one or the other... either its critical that everyone runs the same systems because it creates familiarity.... OR... it doesnt. As said in an earlier post, It is NOT the tell all indicator of success. However, I does help if you have it. If you are at a school with lesser athletes than those that you play against, every single bit of help is needed. BTW i do know several programs that if you asked the incoming freshmen to line up and run a HS play on 1st day they could do it without hesitation. Again, it is not a must, but if your program is one that struggles, that might be a way to help get an advantage over others to narrow the talent gap you have |
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