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Post by trenchdawgs on Sept 13, 2022 6:50:05 GMT -6
Hey all. I’m new to the board and could use advice.
I’m a young coach. Been doing it for years but have a situation I’m new to and need help.
I got a job with a big time prep school this season. Overall I’m doing great but there is one kid I’m having trouble with. He’s a 4 star going to a big time school with a terrible attitude. He sometimes barely tries in practice, and then blames the coaches for things. How do you handle this stuff when yelling and being hard on him doesn’t do it, and the efforts to build rapport haven’t worked?
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Post by chi5hi on Sept 13, 2022 8:08:05 GMT -6
Hey all. I’m new to the board and could use advice. I’m a young coach. Been doing it for years but have a situation I’m new to and need help. I got a job with a big time prep school this season. Overall I’m doing great but there is one kid I’m having trouble with. He’s a 4 star going to a big time school with a terrible attitude. He sometimes barely tries in practice, and then blames the coaches for things. How do you handle this stuff when yelling and being hard on him doesn’t do it, and the efforts to build rapport haven’t worked? Make him ride the bench for a game...or use him as a sub for awhile. When he complains to mommy and daddy (which he will because he's still a selfish child), tell him that he doesn't have a team attitude, and until he improves he won't get his way. and STOP YELLING! That's the worst thing you can do. He's irritating you on purpose.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 13, 2022 9:17:58 GMT -6
Drop him on the depth chart, starting today. Sit him out of drills if his attitude keeps up and his effort is garbage. "If you want to act like a spectator, then you'll be a spectator." As has been pointed out, don't waste your breath admonishing him; just calmly sit him out and tell him he can return if he gets his chit together.
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Post by trenchdawgs on Sept 13, 2022 9:21:08 GMT -6
Hey all. I’m new to the board and could use advice. I’m a young coach. Been doing it for years but have a situation I’m new to and need help. I got a job with a big time prep school this season. Overall I’m doing great but there is one kid I’m having trouble with. He’s a 4 star going to a big time school with a terrible attitude. He sometimes barely tries in practice, and then blames the coaches for things. How do you handle this stuff when yelling and being hard on him doesn’t do it, and the efforts to build rapport haven’t worked? and STOP YELLING! That's the worst thing you can do. He's irritating you on purpose. Can you elaborate on that part? Interested
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Post by coachcb on Sept 13, 2022 9:40:07 GMT -6
and STOP YELLING! That's the worst thing you can do. He's irritating you on purpose. Can you elaborate on that part? Interested
I'm not @chi5i but I'll give you my two cents on avoiding yelling.
1. It only serves a purpose if it's backed up with a consequence. Yelling isn't a consequence; it's just white noise unless there's discipline behind it. It sounds like this kid knows that and he's probably enjoying getting a rise out of the OP because it's all bark, no bite.
2. You can get your point across and be stern without hollering and yelling. Yelling elicits an emotional response that gets the kid's attention in the short term. In the long term, they either tune it out or they start to shut down. When I'm disciplining a kid, I don't want the lizard part of their brain triggered; I want the front/thinker part activated so they REALLY hear what I'm saying to them.
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Post by chi5hi on Sept 13, 2022 10:05:26 GMT -6
and STOP YELLING! That's the worst thing you can do. He's irritating you on purpose. Can you elaborate on that part? Interested Sure. You're an adult and he is a kid acting like a child. He is accustomed to grown-ups (mommy and daddy) raising their voices...but ultimately for most of his life he gets his way. Turn and walk away to work with the more mature and UNSELFISH kids.
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Post by CS on Sept 13, 2022 10:25:43 GMT -6
Tell the HC. If nothing happens then you won’t have any power to deal with it anyway
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Post by sweep26 on Sept 13, 2022 10:55:17 GMT -6
What you tolerate...you encourage!!
It IS a team game...having success is going to be difficult for your team if you have one set of rules for the "Star" and another set of rules for the rest of the squad.
Everyone needs to be consistently held accountable for their choice of actions (or lack thereof).
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Post by 3rdandlong on Sept 13, 2022 12:12:38 GMT -6
I'm going to go against the grain here and give different type of advice. I used to have the attitude of my way or the highway and if he can't fit in to the standard of the culture that we want, then he's off.
But If his atitude not hurting the other kids or the team as a whole, don't tolerate, but find a way to work with him. It doesn't sound like he's going to be the guy you want him to be no matter what you do. Sometimes that's just the sad truth. But, find a way to make it work and give him the best chance to succeed within your program. The more you stress about it, the worst it will get.
Perhaps a 1 on 1 convo, where you're not raising your voice and you are showing that you're concerned. He knows he's good, he knows you know he's good and he also knows that he's being a d*** head. Give examples of guys who have had their careers ruined because of bad attitudes and let him know you don't want to see the same thing happen to him.
Is it going to improve? Not right away. But stay the course, and it will improve in increments. Will he ever be the guy that you're going to use as an example as a leader and how you want other kids to be? No, he won't. The quicker you accept that, the better this situation will become and the better you can serve this kid and your team as a whole. Get the most out of this kid that you can. IMO, that won't happen by benching him and giving him a bunch of extra punishments. Each kid is different, each situation is different and we can't try and fit a square peg in a round hole just because that's how we want it to be.
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Post by tripsclosed on Sept 13, 2022 12:29:16 GMT -6
I'm going to go against the grain here and give different type of advice. I used to have the attitude of my way or the highway and if he can't fit in to the standard of the culture that we want, then he's off. But If his atitude not hurting the other kids or the team as a whole, don't tolerate, but find a way to work with him. It doesn't sound like he's going to be the guy you want him to be no matter what you do. Sometimes that's just the sad truth. But, find a way to make it work and give him the best chance to succeed within your program. The more you stress about it, the worst it will get. Perhaps a 1 on 1 convo, where you're not raising your voice and you are showing that you're concerned. He knows he's good, he knows you know he's good and he also knows that he's being a d*** head. Give examples of guys who have had their careers ruined because of bad attitudes and let him know you don't want to see the same thing happen to him. Is it going to improve? Not right away. But stay the course, and it will improve in increments. Will he ever be the guy that you're going to use as an example as a leader and how you want other kids to be? No, he won't. The quicker you accept that, the better this situation will become and the better you can serve this kid and your team as a whole. Get the most out of this kid that you can. IMO, that won't happen by benching him and giving him a bunch of extra punishments. Each kid is different, each situation is different and we can't try and fit a square peg in a round hole just because that's how we want it to be. In semi-similar vein, I will never forget the story about Jimmie Johnson and Chad Knaus (Jimmie's crew chief, in racing terms Chad was Jimmie's HFC). Jimmie and Chad, despite both being immensely talented and winning a lot of poles and races, had friction. The team owner Rick Hendrick sat them down, said something to the effect of yall could be great if you could agree to get along for the sake of greatness, how about give it a shot? Not long after, they proceeded to win a record 5 STRAIGHT titles, a record that will probably never be broken.
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Post by chi5hi on Sept 13, 2022 12:40:26 GMT -6
I'm going to go against the grain here and give different type of advice. I used to have the attitude of my way or the highway and if he can't fit in to the standard of the culture that we want, then he's off. But If his atitude not hurting the other kids or the team as a whole, don't tolerate, but find a way to work with him. It doesn't sound like he's going to be the guy you want him to be no matter what you do. Sometimes that's just the sad truth. But, find a way to make it work and give him the best chance to succeed within your program. The more you stress about it, the worst it will get. Perhaps a 1 on 1 convo, where you're not raising your voice and you are showing that you're concerned. He knows he's good, he knows you know he's good and he also knows that he's being a d*** head. Give examples of guys who have had their careers ruined because of bad attitudes and let him know you don't want to see the same thing happen to him. Is it going to improve? Not right away. But stay the course, and it will improve in increments. Will he ever be the guy that you're going to use as an example as a leader and how you want other kids to be? No, he won't. The quicker you accept that, the better this situation will become and the better you can serve this kid and your team as a whole. Get the most out of this kid that you can. IMO, that won't happen by benching him and giving him a bunch of extra punishments. Each kid is different, each situation is different and we can't try and fit a square peg in a round hole just because that's how we want it to be. I respectfully disagree. That 1:1 conf. is what he wants. The kid is used to ATTENTION. He'll get it any way he can. The kid is quickly moving into adult life. Whatever his vocation, he needs to learn that he will always be a member of a team and will need to answer to someone in charge...or will fail as an adult. He needs the titty pulled from his mouth! Like they say in Texas...first you need to get his attention! "Whomp him up side 'o the head". Coaches can never be part of the Wussification of the American male!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2022 15:27:53 GMT -6
Talk to your head coach and follow his lead. This is part of his job.
Yelling and being hard on players will just push a lot of them further away if they’re on the fence. It sounds like the kid doesn’t really even want to be there or trust his coaches.
He’s got talent, but does he even like football or care about the team? More and more athletes are being raised to view HS sports only in terms of what it can do for their “brand.” They are genuinely clueless that college coaches value what HS coaches have to say about a player’s conduct and leadership.
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Post by chi5hi on Sept 13, 2022 17:32:23 GMT -6
Hey all. I’m new to the board and could use advice. I’m a young coach. Been doing it for years but have a situation I’m new to and need help. I got a job with a big time prep school this season. Overall I’m doing great but there is one kid I’m having trouble with. He’s a 4 star going to a big time school with a terrible attitude. He sometimes barely tries in practice, and then blames the coaches for things. How do you handle this stuff when yelling and being hard on him doesn’t do it, and the efforts to build rapport haven’t worked? Let's say that he's NOT a 4 star athlete going to a big school. Let's say he's a regular HS kid who, after this season, will never again put on a jock strap! How would you handle THAT bad attitude?
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Post by larrymoe on Sept 13, 2022 17:40:36 GMT -6
Hey all. I’m new to the board and could use advice. I’m a young coach. Been doing it for years but have a situation I’m new to and need help. I got a job with a big time prep school this season. Overall I’m doing great but there is one kid I’m having trouble with. He’s a 4 star going to a big time school with a terrible attitude. He sometimes barely tries in practice, and then blames the coaches for things. How do you handle this stuff when yelling and being hard on him doesn’t do it, and the efforts to build rapport haven’t worked? Let's say that he's NOT a 4 star athlete going to a big school. Let's say he's a regular HS kid who, after this season, will never again put on a jock strap! How would you handle THAT bad attitude? And therein lies the problem. Too many coaches and people in general differentiate because of the "4 star" designation. If anything, I was usually harder on the "stars".
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Post by coachsmith79 on Sept 13, 2022 19:53:07 GMT -6
IMHO, you should let the HC & coordinator know what's going on, so that they're aware and can provide you with a united front when/if the situation escalates and stronger intervention needs to be implemented. The next thing I would after consulting with HC is have a conversation with the kid and reinforce what the expectations for his behavior and conduct is on and off the field. And in that conversation really try to gauge what's going on with the kid. A lot of assumptions are being made, but none of us have any idea what may or may not be going on in this kids family life or with him internally/emotionally/ mentally. That doesn't mean to coddle him or anything like that, but you're the adult and he's the kid. It is expected of them to act on and push limits, you're the adult, so remain calm, and act responsibly even if the student/athlete isn't.
If after having the discussion with the student and nothing has changed in their behavior and conduct, then consequences need to be implemented, and if the student has changed his behavior for the better, then you need openly acknowledge and reinforce those behaviors as well. Just continue to reach out to him and let him know you're only there to help him and the team get better.
Ultimately, the student will change or he won't, there will be natural consequences for his behavior if it doesn't click soon, but those are his choices and he'll have to live with the decisions he's made. Stay positive,be compassionate, set limits, be firm, remember you're the adult and he's the child, so there are no power struggles to engage in. I hope you find the right solution for this issue and good luck to you this season.
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Post by tothehouse on Sept 13, 2022 21:09:13 GMT -6
One thing I have done is told a kid like that "he's never a starter" Every week he has to earn his spot. And when he acts like a douche you are in a good spot. I say..."see...that's why I don't have you in. You can't be trusted to pay attention". Made a huge difference with the kid I did that to this year. When he plays poorly...pull him out. Keep him out. When he's good and does "team" things...put him in. Takes work, but can be done.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 14, 2022 6:54:19 GMT -6
One thing I have done is told a kid like that "he's never a starter" Every week he has to earn his spot. And when he acts like a douche you are in a good spot. I say..."see...that's why I don't have you in. You can't be trusted to pay attention". Made a huge difference with the kid I did that to this year. When he plays poorly...pull him out. Keep him out. When he's good and does "team" things...put him in. Takes work, but can be done.
I like this, a lot. In fact, we have a young man who probably needs this approach, starting tonight.
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Post by MICoach on Sept 14, 2022 7:07:23 GMT -6
I'm going to go against the grain here and give different type of advice. I used to have the attitude of my way or the highway and if he can't fit in to the standard of the culture that we want, then he's off. But If his atitude not hurting the other kids or the team as a whole, don't tolerate, but find a way to work with him. It doesn't sound like he's going to be the guy you want him to be no matter what you do. Sometimes that's just the sad truth. But, find a way to make it work and give him the best chance to succeed within your program. The more you stress about it, the worst it will get. Perhaps a 1 on 1 convo, where you're not raising your voice and you are showing that you're concerned. He knows he's good, he knows you know he's good and he also knows that he's being a d*** head. Give examples of guys who have had their careers ruined because of bad attitudes and let him know you don't want to see the same thing happen to him. Is it going to improve? Not right away. But stay the course, and it will improve in increments. Will he ever be the guy that you're going to use as an example as a leader and how you want other kids to be? No, he won't. The quicker you accept that, the better this situation will become and the better you can serve this kid and your team as a whole. Get the most out of this kid that you can. IMO, that won't happen by benching him and giving him a bunch of extra punishments. Each kid is different, each situation is different and we can't try and fit a square peg in a round hole just because that's how we want it to be. I respectfully disagree. That 1:1 conf. is what he wants. The kid is used to ATTENTION. He'll get it any way he can. The kid is quickly moving into adult life. Whatever his vocation, he needs to learn that he will always be a member of a team and will need to answer to someone in charge...or will fail as an adult. He needs the titty pulled from his mouth! Like they say in Texas...first you need to get his attention! "Whomp him up side 'o the head". Coaches can never be part of the Wussification of the American male! Ah, yes. Hit him! That'll solve the problem.
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Post by chi5hi on Sept 14, 2022 7:56:52 GMT -6
I respectfully disagree. That 1:1 conf. is what he wants. The kid is used to ATTENTION. He'll get it any way he can. The kid is quickly moving into adult life. Whatever his vocation, he needs to learn that he will always be a member of a team and will need to answer to someone in charge...or will fail as an adult. He needs the titty pulled from his mouth! Like they say in Texas...first you need to get his attention! "Whomp him up side 'o the head". Coaches can never be part of the Wussification of the American male! Ah, yes. Hit him! That'll solve the problem. Oh, come on! Are you for real?? It means to give some kind of a wake-up, and that is not to baby him.
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Post by MICoach on Sept 14, 2022 9:13:23 GMT -6
Ah, yes. Hit him! That'll solve the problem. Oh, come on! Are you for real?? It means to give some kind of a wake-up, and that is not to baby him. If that's what you meant that's fine, I don't take issue, but I've never known "whomp him up side o' the head" to mean anything other than "hit him in the head."
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Post by chi5hi on Sept 14, 2022 9:54:51 GMT -6
Oh, come on! Are you for real?? It means to give some kind of a wake-up, and that is not to baby him. If that's what you meant that's fine, I don't take issue, but I've never known "whomp him up side o' the head" to mean anything other than "hit him in the head." ***sigh***
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Post by fantom on Sept 14, 2022 10:03:35 GMT -6
All of these ideas and thoughts are interesting but until the OP talks with the HC none of them mean anything.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 14, 2022 10:21:38 GMT -6
At the end of the day, kids need the same thing they've always needed: appropriate responses (positive and negative) to their actions. Personally, I think kids (and society in general) has grown a little soft but that doesn't change the need to be held accountable. Sometimes, we need to change how we hold kids accountable.
Personally, I've used a little extra conditioning as a "reminder" before we start cutting playing time. We ran into a situation recently where a mother had a fit over her exceptionally lazy kid being sent for jogs as "he hates running." Ten years ago, my response would've been "Well, that's the point, isn't it?" These day, I'm not going to fight it; we cut the kid's playing time for a game. He skipped out on practice (mom let him go home because he was having a "bad day") so we suspended him for a game.
Mom has been up in arms over it and my response to her has been quick n' easy: "These are the consequences for his actions."
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Post by blb on Sept 14, 2022 10:52:56 GMT -6
If your half way into his senior season and nobody has reined him in before this there probably isn't anything you can do that's going to change him now.
You can win with talent like that but you can lose with kids like that too.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Sept 14, 2022 13:47:33 GMT -6
Again, I'll be the contrarian.
We talk about preparing them for the "real world". In the real world highly competent people (talented) will get more opportunities than those who are not as highly competent.
For example a great salesman who produces more than any other salesman for a company is disliked by his co-workers because he shows up late and is a jerk in the office. The manager and owner, might not like the way he dresses or doesn't like that he slouches during company meetings or he doesn't show up to the Christmas party. Oh well, the CEO simply cares that he produces. Now if he is so toxic that it gives his company a bad rap whether it be through bad publicity or a whole bunch of good employees leaving, then the higher ups will do something about it, but until then, if he's producing, he'll keep his job.
So yes, the highly gifted athlete who is a jerk gets more opportunities- to a point- than the scout team kid who is a jerk. It's life. It's real world.
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Post by blb on Sept 14, 2022 13:57:18 GMT -6
So yes, the highly gifted athlete who is a jerk gets more opportunities- to a point- than the scout team kid who is a jerk. It's life. It's real world. Where is "the point"?
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Post by irishdog on Sept 14, 2022 15:05:48 GMT -6
Check with the other assistants to see if they are noticing the same. Approach the HC to let him know. Ask what the best way would be to handle it. A good HC will want to see it for himself and take it from there, OR, he'll ask how you think it should be handled, OR both! Either way it will fall back into the lap of the kid and he will either change his effort or an effort to change him will be made by the coaching staff.
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Post by larrymoe on Sept 14, 2022 16:59:30 GMT -6
If your half way into his senior season and nobody has reined him in before this there probably isn't anything you can do that's going to change him now. You can win with talent like that but you can lose with kids like that too. Some of my most miserable seasons was spent on teams where the HC was a talent chaser and rules didn't apply to the talented kids because "we need their talent to win". Very rarely did we win on those teams or in those programs.
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Post by 3rdandlong on Sept 14, 2022 18:21:53 GMT -6
So yes, the highly gifted athlete who is a jerk gets more opportunities- to a point- than the scout team kid who is a jerk. It's life. It's real world. Where is "the point"? That's the million dollar question/answer. That's decided by the head man. IMO, there are a couple of times when you need to let a guy go. 1. He does something so wrong that you have to remove him from the team (drugs, tells off a coach, etc.). 2. It becomes so toxic that it affects the team as a whole in a negative way. If the team can survive his toxic attitude and his ability helps the team produce greater results, then you find a way to work with it. You don't really know that unless your there everyday and it can usually be felt.
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Post by coachcb on Sept 15, 2022 8:58:49 GMT -6
That's the million dollar question/answer. That's decided by the head man. IMO, there are a couple of times when you need to let a guy go. 1. He does something so wrong that you have to remove him from the team (drugs, tells off a coach, etc.). 2. It becomes so toxic that it affects the team as a whole in a negative way. If the team can survive his toxic attitude and his ability helps the team produce greater results, then you find a way to work with it. You don't really know that unless your there everyday and it can usually be felt.
IMO, it's important to recognize the bullchit from any kid early and head it off. We don't want to get to the tipping point you've described because there will be some damage done to the program before hand. If you're a PITA, there's going to be consequences. Reality, each kid has a job to do and that's what we're looking at. Johnny Football may go above and beyond his job because of his athleticism but there are other kids that will get the job done well enough that we can be successful.
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