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Post by tripsclosed on Jun 10, 2022 15:15:45 GMT -6
How do you stop the Cam Newton play? Dash/Inverted Veer/Power Read. Whatever you call it. Block power. QB is the dive portion while the RB/jet guy is going outside. Everyone blocked but read DE. OK, you got me to bite. My first question- Who is the better player/bigger threat between the QB or the outside guy? I generally prioritize who has the bigger chance of {censored} us before I worry about adjustments. Let's say it's Cam Newton, who made that play popular. Cam Newton is the dive portion of Power Read, and Michael Dyer (one of their two main RBs that year) is the sweep portion
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Post by tripsclosed on Jun 10, 2022 15:18:02 GMT -6
Oh man, I know you wrote that you didn't want this to be malicious, and I'll try not to, but there are a lot of things out there that people do that just blow my mind. I was lucky enough to spend most of my coaching career, especially my early years, on good staffs with people who knew what they were doing. So when I landed on lesser ones I was shocked. You mentioned practice plans, I would add to that just organization as a whole. There is a general idea of what needs to get done, but nobody maps it out and it leads to blindspots, missed steps, and overlap of coaches not staying in their lanes. Along those lines, actual coordination by coordinators. You don't just call plays, you coordinate. You need to make sure the drills the position coaches are teaching (get to that later) fit within your scheme. So many coordinators just expect position coaches to come in and coach 'em up. And even if they do coach them stuff, said stuff doesn't fit. Coordinators should know precisely what they want the position coaches teaching, how to teach it, and when. They should then make sure that the PCs know this and how to do it. Unfortunately, most coordinators don't do this; they are either lacking the knowledge and structural understanding of how to implement it, or don't want to be seen as a micro manager, so they let PCs do what they want, and it doesnt mesh. Then there is the actual teaching of techniques. Lots of teams out there have coaches who don't really teach technique. Some may "tell" the players what to do, usually with a phrase that the players don't fully understand. Others show them, but continually coaching and enforcing technique, its shockingly rare. Coaches just have them perform full game situation movements (ie block this play) without refining, drilling, and repping the precise how. Blows my mind how many kids play football without being taught how to play their position. Athletic development and understanding of the human body is shockingly lacking. I'm not writing you need to be a kinesiologist, but I have seen multiple programs where coaches implement weight programs that end up harming the athletes physical development, and ignore the development of muscle groups. Accountability is another one. I get, a lot of people are handcuffed by the admin in how they can discipline players and address issues. But there is a lot of 'turning a blind eye' out there that really shocks me. Sometimes its coaches not wanting to anger a star player, other times its not wanting to deal with issues. Its awful. In any case, soapbox away for now. THIS! Several of these discribe my current position. I've been at 4 schools, some had success and some didn't. However, I had never experienced these things. First would be coaches staying in their lanes. I don't need the CB coach correcting my ILB's. Worry about your guys. Not only was 90% of what he was saying was wrong, but the other 10% he wasn't using the proper terminology. No need for me to repeat exactly what you said about the coordinators coordinating, but every word you said was true. Finally, coaches that don't teach technique. What was our WR Coach's first drill of the summer? Stance? Get offs? Maybe a hands drill? Nope, how to run mesh. This is pretty much every coach on staff. I want to smash my head in my car door every time I leave practice. Then you have other coaches who take stance to the extreme and spend the first two weeks of practice on stance πππ
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Post by 33coach on Jun 10, 2022 17:41:12 GMT -6
THIS! Several of these discribe my current position. I've been at 4 schools, some had success and some didn't. However, I had never experienced these things. First would be coaches staying in their lanes. I don't need the CB coach correcting my ILB's. Worry about your guys. Not only was 90% of what he was saying was wrong, but the other 10% he wasn't using the proper terminology. No need for me to repeat exactly what you said about the coordinators coordinating, but every word you said was true. Finally, coaches that don't teach technique. What was our WR Coach's first drill of the summer? Stance? Get offs? Maybe a hands drill? Nope, how to run mesh. This is pretty much every coach on staff. I want to smash my head in my car door every time I leave practice. Then you have other coaches who take stance to the extreme and spend the first two weeks of practice on stance πππ day 1 practice 1: how to put on football equipment and inflate a football....
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 10, 2022 18:20:45 GMT -6
OK, you got me to bite. My first question- Who is the better player/bigger threat between the QB or the outside guy? I generally prioritize who has the bigger chance of {censored} us before I worry about adjustments. Let's say it's Cam Newton, who made that play popular. Cam Newton is the dive portion of Power Read, and Michael Dyer (one of their two main RBs that year) is the sweep portion If we're playing Cam Newton in Central Illinois 1A football we're {censored}. In reality, if the QB is the better athlete, we're probably telling the DE to hit him immediately, tell the OLB and CB to get off a block, set an edge and let a pursuer follow the near hip and hope he cuts into pursuit that's pursuing at top speed.
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Post by agap on Jun 10, 2022 20:01:44 GMT -6
There have been one or two threads about it recently. A lot of colleges are running it in the Midwest and some high schools in MN. Actually just one high school now since I was told it can't be done at the high school level.
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Jun 10, 2022 20:09:25 GMT -6
Let's say it's Cam Newton, who made that play popular. Cam Newton is the dive portion of Power Read, and Michael Dyer (one of their two main RBs that year) is the sweep portion If we're playing Cam Newton in Central Illinois 1A football we're {censored}. In reality, if the QB is the better athlete, we're probably telling the DE to hit him immediately, tell the OLB and CB to get off a block, set an edge and let a pursuer follow the near hip and hope he cuts into pursuit that's pursuing at top speed. Jesus dudeβ¦ nobody cares that you coach 1A football in Illinois. Answer the damn question. I coach 1A football in BFE Missouri. I promise you that we still see some DUDES. This whole βweβll never see that!β BS is such a cop-out. Give other teams some credit. I used to have that mindset and it took getting my ass walloped up and down the field to learn my lesson
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 10, 2022 20:12:19 GMT -6
There have been one or two threads about it recently. A lot of colleges are running it in the Midwest and some high schools in MN. Actually just one high school now since I was told it can't be done at the high school level. Care to post the links to those threads here for those of us squares not hip enough to speak the lingo?
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Post by The Lunch Pail on Jun 10, 2022 20:18:42 GMT -6
Oh man, I know you wrote that you didn't want this to be malicious, and I'll try not to, but there are a lot of things out there that people do that just blow my mind. I was lucky enough to spend most of my coaching career, especially my early years, on good staffs with people who knew what they were doing. So when I landed on lesser ones I was shocked. You mentioned practice plans, I would add to that just organization as a whole. There is a general idea of what needs to get done, but nobody maps it out and it leads to blindspots, missed steps, and overlap of coaches not staying in their lanes. Along those lines, actual coordination by coordinators. You don't just call plays, you coordinate. You need to make sure the drills the position coaches are teaching (get to that later) fit within your scheme. So many coordinators just expect position coaches to come in and coach 'em up. And even if they do coach them stuff, said stuff doesn't fit. Coordinators should know precisely what they want the position coaches teaching, how to teach it, and when. They should then make sure that the PCs know this and how to do it. Unfortunately, most coordinators don't do this; they are either lacking the knowledge and structural understanding of how to implement it, or don't want to be seen as a micro manager, so they let PCs do what they want, and it doesnt mesh. Then there is the actual teaching of techniques. Lots of teams out there have coaches who don't really teach technique. Some may "tell" the players what to do, usually with a phrase that the players don't fully understand. Others show them, but continually coaching and enforcing technique, its shockingly rare. Coaches just have them perform full game situation movements (ie block this play) without refining, drilling, and repping the precise how. Blows my mind how many kids play football without being taught how to play their position. Athletic development and understanding of the human body is shockingly lacking. I'm not writing you need to be a kinesiologist, but I have seen multiple programs where coaches implement weight programs that end up harming the athletes physical development, and ignore the development of muscle groups. Accountability is another one. I get, a lot of people are handcuffed by the admin in how they can discipline players and address issues. But there is a lot of 'turning a blind eye' out there that really shocks me. Sometimes its coaches not wanting to anger a star player, other times its not wanting to deal with issues. Its awful. In any case, soapbox away for now. This should be a sticky/PSA...Not to mention, what maybe takes the cake is that when someone like yourself or myself tries to encourage/implement/tactfully push for even one piece of that, let alone most or all of it, so many people drag their feet, get annoyed, get passive-aggressive, or even get downright irrate for suggesting any of that. You get stuff like "C'mon coach, this is HS football, we ain't Alabama/New England, we're all just out here trying to have some fun." Then, 15 minutes later during team period, that same jackleg is out there screaming at their WR for dropping a pass and saying "come on now, so and so, we are trying to win games here, this is varsity football, this aint rec league!" πππ βThis ainβt Alabamaβ guys - what the _ are you teaching kids? Itβs not about winning chalk wars, itβs about coaching kids up and being sound. Imagine any other profession having that mindsetβ¦ priding themselves on their own ignorance. I really think those who say that are glorified cheerleaders - yelling at kids to βplay harderβ and conditioning them into the dirt to βget them tougher.β All I see is insecurity from people who make remarks like that. Iβm going to coach my unit up as well as I can and push them to be intellectually curious as well as I can. Kids donβt like to be talked to like theyβre stupid
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 10, 2022 20:38:13 GMT -6
If we're playing Cam Newton in Central Illinois 1A football we're {censored}. In reality, if the QB is the better athlete, we're probably telling the DE to hit him immediately, tell the OLB and CB to get off a block, set an edge and let a pursuer follow the near hip and hope he cuts into pursuit that's pursuing at top speed. Jesus dudeβ¦ nobody cares that you coach 1A football in Illinois. Answer the damn question. I coach 1A football in BFE Missouri. I promise you that we still see some DUDES. This whole βweβll never see that!β BS is such a cop-out. Give other teams some credit. I used to have that mindset and it took getting my ass walloped up and down the field to learn my lesson I pretty much did after the first joke sentence, but go ahead and go off.
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Post by agap on Jun 10, 2022 20:46:45 GMT -6
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Post by tripsclosed on Jun 10, 2022 21:02:13 GMT -6
Let's say it's Cam Newton, who made that play popular. Cam Newton is the dive portion of Power Read, and Michael Dyer (one of their two main RBs that year) is the sweep portion If we're playing Cam Newton in Central Illinois 1A football we're {censored}. In reality, if the QB is the better athlete, we're probably telling the DE to hit him immediately, tell the OLB and CB to get off a block, set an edge and let a pursuer follow the near hip and hope he cuts into pursuit that's pursuing at top speed. I gotcha. Thanks for sharing your answering
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 10, 2022 21:06:10 GMT -6
If we're playing Cam Newton in Central Illinois 1A football we're {censored}. In reality, if the QB is the better athlete, we're probably telling the DE to hit him immediately, tell the OLB and CB to get off a block, set an edge and let a pursuer follow the near hip and hope he cuts into pursuit that's pursuing at top speed. I gotcha. Thanks for sharing your answering In re- reading this, I realized I didn't type the thought of "hit the QB immediately and make him pitch. Then set the edge, etc, etc. I assume you're running this out of a standard 2x2 for argument sake. Our OLB would be splitting the difference between the end of the LOS and WR and would end up responsible for the pitch guy.
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Post by tripsclosed on Jun 10, 2022 21:31:16 GMT -6
I gotcha. Thanks for sharing your answering In re- reading this, I realized I didn't type the thought of "hit the QB immediately and make him pitch. Then set the edge, etc, etc. I assume you're running this out of a standard 2x2 for argument sake. Our OLB would be splitting the difference between the end of the LOS and WR and would end up responsible for the pitch guy. If it's 2x2 *cross face* power read, with RB crossing QB's face on a sweep path and the QB shuffling two steps playside, then there is no pitch phase, it's just a double option. QB keep on power path, or give to RB on sweep path. Now, you COULD do it out of same-side flow and end up with a pitch phase. You reverse the roles, QB now hands off to RB who runs Power path, or QB keeps and runs sweep path, or throws to slot WR for pitch phase (or better, bring the backside slot in motion to the frontside to be the pitch player).
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Post by carookie on Jun 10, 2022 22:26:37 GMT -6
Oh man, I know you wrote that you didn't want this to be malicious, and I'll try not to, but there are a lot of things out there that people do that just blow my mind. I was lucky enough to spend most of my coaching career, especially my early years, on good staffs with people who knew what they were doing. So when I landed on lesser ones I was shocked. You mentioned practice plans, I would add to that just organization as a whole. There is a general idea of what needs to get done, but nobody maps it out and it leads to blindspots, missed steps, and overlap of coaches not staying in their lanes. Along those lines, actual coordination by coordinators. You don't just call plays, you coordinate. You need to make sure the drills the position coaches are teaching (get to that later) fit within your scheme. So many coordinators just expect position coaches to come in and coach 'em up. And even if they do coach them stuff, said stuff doesn't fit. Coordinators should know precisely what they want the position coaches teaching, how to teach it, and when. They should then make sure that the PCs know this and how to do it. Unfortunately, most coordinators don't do this; they are either lacking the knowledge and structural understanding of how to implement it, or don't want to be seen as a micro manager, so they let PCs do what they want, and it doesnt mesh. Then there is the actual teaching of techniques. Lots of teams out there have coaches who don't really teach technique. Some may "tell" the players what to do, usually with a phrase that the players don't fully understand. Others show them, but continually coaching and enforcing technique, its shockingly rare. Coaches just have them perform full game situation movements (ie block this play) without refining, drilling, and repping the precise how. Blows my mind how many kids play football without being taught how to play their position. Athletic development and understanding of the human body is shockingly lacking. I'm not writing you need to be a kinesiologist, but I have seen multiple programs where coaches implement weight programs that end up harming the athletes physical development, and ignore the development of muscle groups. Accountability is another one. I get, a lot of people are handcuffed by the admin in how they can discipline players and address issues. But there is a lot of 'turning a blind eye' out there that really shocks me. Sometimes its coaches not wanting to anger a star player, other times its not wanting to deal with issues. Its awful. In any case, soapbox away for now. THIS! Several of these discribe my current position. I've been at 4 schools, some had success and some didn't. However, I had never experienced these things. First would be coaches staying in their lanes. I don't need the CB coach correcting my ILB's. Worry about your guys. Not only was 90% of what he was saying was wrong, but the other 10% he wasn't using the proper terminology. No need for me to repeat exactly what you said about the coordinators coordinating, but every word you said was true. Finally, coaches that don't teach technique. What was our WR Coach's first drill of the summer? Stance? Get offs? Maybe a hands drill? Nope, how to run mesh. This is pretty much every coach on staff. I want to smash my head in my car door every time I leave practice. Haha, that last bit reminds me of some years back, my son was in 2nd grade, playing little league ball. First practice, first drill, coach says, βweβre gonna start by working on double plays...β Mind you, this was just a regular little league team, not travel ball or something. Half these kids couldnt even throw the ball properly, let alone know what a double play was.
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Post by silkyice on Jun 11, 2022 7:17:39 GMT -6
How do you stop the Cam Newton play? Dash/Inverted Veer/Power Read. Whatever you call it. Block power. QB is the dive portion while the RB/jet guy is going outside. Everyone blocked but read DE. OK, you got me to bite. My first question- Who is the better player/bigger threat between the QB or the outside guy? I generally prioritize who has the bigger chance of {censored} us before I worry about adjustments. Let's say RB.
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Post by dubber on Jun 11, 2022 9:19:16 GMT -6
Letβs get this back on trackβ¦..power read stuff please take to another thread.
Couple for us:
1). Teams are only lifting weights and runningβ¦..no speed/agility development
2). As a line coach, I got to say there is a lot to be desired in how DL/OL play is coached. A lot of assignment coaching, very little technique.
3). Coaches not understanding/investing in recruiting. Most guys either want to Field of Dreams it, or just pester/beg kids to play.
Both ways are lazy and ineffective replacements for how you actually get kids to play = building relationships
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Post by CS on Jun 11, 2022 9:54:57 GMT -6
Letβs get this back on trackβ¦..power read stuff please take to another thread. Couple for us: 1). Teams are only lifting weights and runningβ¦..no speed/agility development 2). As a line coach, I got to say there is a lot to be desired in how DL/OL play is coached. A lot of assignment coaching, very little technique. 3). Coaches not understanding/investing in recruiting. Most guys either want to Field of Dreams it, or just pester/beg kids to play. Both ways are lazy and ineffective replacements for how you actually get kids to play = building relationships In my experience the field of dreams approach is more for recruiting the parents to your school than anything else
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Post by silkyice on Jun 11, 2022 11:13:00 GMT -6
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Post by fantom on Jun 11, 2022 12:57:38 GMT -6
What are the things you do in coaching that seems very standard to you at this stage in your career but you forgot/forgotten they aren't/weren't done by everyone? I don't mean this in a malicious way, or "they're an idiot for not doing x" but just something you just assumed was understood/practiced/done by other people but are apparently not. Someone on this board mentioned coaches that do practice without a practice plan and I forgot that (though hopefully considered standard practice) wasn't universal. On a similar note I don't understand how people practice, especially defense, without a script.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 11, 2022 13:02:13 GMT -6
What are the things you do in coaching that seems very standard to you at this stage in your career but you forgot/forgotten they aren't/weren't done by everyone? I don't mean this in a malicious way, or "they're an idiot for not doing x" but just something you just assumed was understood/practiced/done by other people but are apparently not. Someone on this board mentioned coaches that do practice without a practice plan and I forgot that (though hopefully considered standard practice) wasn't universal. On a similar note I don't understand how people practice, especially defense, without a script.Β I never liked a script because I liked it when the offense caught us with our pants down. Then we'd talk about what went wrong and clean it up before Friday night.
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Post by blb on Jun 11, 2022 13:18:22 GMT -6
On a similar note I don't understand how people practice, especially defense, without a script. When you script for your defense - do you use the call you'd like to make game night vs. the play scout team is going to run? Do you ever put your defense in a bad situation (worst possible call vs. play to be run)?
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Post by carookie on Jun 11, 2022 13:36:38 GMT -6
On a similar note I don't understand how people practice, especially defense, without a script.Β I never liked a script because I liked it when the offense caught us with our pants down. Then we'd talk about what went wrong and clean it up before Friday night. Do you then establish the situation for the play call? Otherwise you as the dc could be calling a short yardage defense, and they hit you with all verts. They succeed, but it doesnt fit with the situation you as the dc were coaching for.
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Post by larrymoe on Jun 11, 2022 14:52:45 GMT -6
I never liked a script because I liked it when the offense caught us with our pants down. Then we'd talk about what went wrong and clean it up before Friday night. Do you then establish the situation for the play call? Otherwise you as the dc could be calling a short yardage defense, and they hit you with all verts. They succeed, but it doesnt fit with the situation you as the dc were coaching for. Not really. Do you get to tell the other sideline they can't run a certain play in a certain situation? As an OC who used to be a DC, I got a lot of mileage out of being able to call insanely inappropriate plays in certain situations.
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Post by fantom on Jun 11, 2022 14:56:39 GMT -6
On a similar note I don't understand how people practice, especially defense, without a script. When you script for your defense - do you use the call you'd like to make game night vs. the play scout team is going to run? Do you ever put your defense in a bad situation (worst possible call vs. play to be run)? I use a call that I'd make in that situation. I'm not trying to set up the defense for best-case but I don't want to give them an impossible situation against a play that we're very unlikely to see. I do want to stress them some by putting in a play that's tough to stop but not impossible against the called defense in that situation. Balancing out the script is the hardest thing that I do during the week. I'll ad that a big reason for scripting is to allow position coaches to watch on each play (And nobody's going to look at the script and yell, "Watch counter here".).
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 11, 2022 17:24:49 GMT -6
On a similar note I don't understand how people practice, especially defense, without a script. I never liked a script because I liked it when the offense caught us with our pants down. Then we'd talk about what went wrong and clean it up before Friday night. I think what others are saying is that you can script that scenario. My scripting process : Set down and distance and hash, and then go through the process just like it happens in the game. Personnel grouping (if that is applicable to offense and subsequently defense). Then pic a likely defense you would call based on D&D and hash (and maybe field position). Then based on your scouting for the week call an offensive play. Once script is finished, draw up the corresponding scout cards (all 22 players).
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Post by carookie on Jun 11, 2022 19:45:11 GMT -6
Do you then establish the situation for the play call? Otherwise you as the dc could be calling a short yardage defense, and they hit you with all verts. They succeed, but it doesnt fit with the situation you as the dc were coaching for. Not really. Do you get to tell the other sideline they can't run a certain play in a certain situation? As an OC who used to be a DC, I got a lot of mileage out of being able to call insanely inappropriate plays in certain situations. No, but usually on 4th and goal there isnt room for 4 verts. Which is kind of what i was implying, and why i asked if you established situation- down, distance, field location, etc.
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Post by agap on Jun 11, 2022 22:30:17 GMT -6
We always script for Team D. It's based on their tendencies. When it's 2nd & Medium, the plays scripted are what they run on 2nd & Medium. Then we pick what we want in that situation and that's on the script. Like others have said, we wouldn't want to make a 3rd & Short call on defense but the Scout O Coach chose a 3rd & Long play.
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Post by blb on Jun 12, 2022 5:24:08 GMT -6
We always script for Team D. It's based on their tendencies. When it's 2nd & Medium, the plays scripted are what they run on 2nd & Medium. Then we pick what we want in that situation and that's on the script. Like others have said, we wouldn't want to make a 3rd & Short call on defense but the Scout O Coach chose a 3rd & Long play. What do you do if opponent had no 2nd and Mediums (or any other specific D&D categories) in games you broke down? Do you change the yardage parameters of D&Ds when offense gets into four-down territory? As far as tendencies - offense may break them because the defense you play is different from previous opponents'. Or they may automatic your "look." So those may be of minimal value come game night.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 12, 2022 7:46:34 GMT -6
We always script for Team D. It's based on their tendencies. When it's 2nd & Medium, the plays scripted are what they run on 2nd & Medium. Then we pick what we want in that situation and that's on the script. Like others have said, we wouldn't want to make a 3rd & Short call on defense but the Scout O Coach chose a 3rd & Long play. What do you do if opponent had no 2nd and Mediums (or any other specific D&D categories) in games you broke down? Do you change the yardage parameters of D&Ds when offense gets into four-down territory? As far as tendencies - offense may break them because the defense you play is different from previous opponents'. Or they may automatic your "look." So those may be of minimal value come game night. But how would doing what is suggested (using break downs to formulate scripts) make anyone worse off than the alternative ( random offensive scout play vs defense in Team D period) ?
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Post by carookie on Jun 12, 2022 7:53:30 GMT -6
We always script for Team D. It's based on their tendencies. When it's 2nd & Medium, the plays scripted are what they run on 2nd & Medium. Then we pick what we want in that situation and that's on the script. Like others have said, we wouldn't want to make a 3rd & Short call on defense but the Scout O Coach chose a 3rd & Long play. What do you do if opponent had no 2nd and Mediums (or any other specific D&D categories) in games you broke down? Do you change the yardage parameters of D&Ds when offense gets into four-down territory? As far as tendencies - offense may break them because the defense you play is different from previous opponents'. Or they may automatic your "look." So those may be of minimal value come game night. Hopefully, if there are no specific D&D tendencies, you just have the scout team run what the opponent runs most often. So if they love Veer out of 10 personnel, but I dont have any info on them for 2nd and 6, then Iβd just rather see them run veer out of 10 regardless of the lacking data. Thats one reason we script it out anyways. If i spent time scouting them, and we figure that they are going to do βX, Y, & Zβ most of the game, then I want to mostly practice against βX, Y, & Zβ. The point of scout o is to get good at stopping what the opponent will most likely do. Not for our jv oc to try and βout play call meβ under the premise that they COULD technically run anything they want. I dont want to get into it with jvoc that yes they could run double reverse three times in a row (and thanks for showing us we werent ready for that very slim possibility). But odds are they are going to run their favorite plays that they practiced all year. So i script out those favorite plays to ensure that in our limited time we can maximize the amount if work we get against them
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