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Post by silkyice on Nov 19, 2021 8:35:44 GMT -6
It just seems like we are missing the main point on this thread. The formation can be legal. Or maybe it is illegal. But, there is no way that 4 receivers can go downfield on one side if there is a back in the back field. You have at most 5 eligible receivers. One has to be the end man on the other side. One has to be the back. That leaves three. So 4 cannot go out on that side. Stated another way, the only way 4 can go out on one side is in an empty backfield. A few technical side notes. 1) I know that the end man on the line on the side does not have to eligible. He could be a lineman. But that does not mean you get an extra eligible man on the other side. In fact no one has to be eligible at all. The rules just show who can be eligible. 2) I know that you actually get 6 guys that are eligible. The qb is eligible, but no one counts him. We all say 5 eligibles. Can someone please upload video of the play? That way we can see what happened. It very well could be what coachks said. One guy just went a few yards downfield but was not illegal to catch a pass and was within the 3 yards that lineman are allowed to go downfield.
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Post by bulldogsdc on Nov 19, 2021 8:46:30 GMT -6
If the QB is UC and his helmet breaks the C's hip, Why isn't he considered on the LOS?
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Post by silkyice on Nov 19, 2021 9:00:32 GMT -6
If the QB is UC and his helmet breaks the C's hip, Why isn't he considered on the LOS? Because he is clearly behind the center.
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 19, 2021 16:31:46 GMT -6
If the QB is UC and his helmet breaks the C's hip, Why isn't he considered on the LOS? Because there's a specific exception for one player in position to be able to take a hand-to-hand snap between the snapper's legs.
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Post by Down 'n Out on Nov 22, 2021 8:31:03 GMT -6
A player who is "on" the line of scrimmage has to break the Centers belt line, as #1 and #2 WRs are doing. If the refs wanted to be a stickler for on/off #4 looks pretty on too
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Post by bulldogsdc on Nov 22, 2021 8:41:17 GMT -6
If the QB is UC and his helmet breaks the C's hip, Why isn't he considered on the LOS? Because there's a specific exception for one player in position to be able to take a hand-to-hand snap between the snapper's legs. Is the right guard in a position to take a hand to hand snap?
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Post by morris on Nov 22, 2021 10:02:33 GMT -6
Because there's a specific exception for one player in position to be able to take a hand-to-hand snap between the snapper's legs. Is the right guard in a position to take a hand to hand snap? There is a specific rule that I’m sure Bob can track down quote. No the RG is not in position to take the snap. There is also a rule about you about how far certain players have to be off the LOS. It very rarely comes up. When it does it’s typically a sniffer type back who’s head is breaking the plane of the hip of a player other than the center. You end up in kind of a no man’s line where you are neither on the LOS nor off.
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 22, 2021 18:56:26 GMT -6
Because there's a specific exception for one player in position to be able to take a hand-to-hand snap between the snapper's legs. Is the right guard in a position to take a hand to hand snap? Not one that goes between the snapper's legs! Nobody is, in that formation. I mean, just look at them. Here's the relevant part of 7-2-3: "Of the players of A who are not on their line at the snap only one may penetrate the vertical plane through the waistline of his nearest teammate who is on his line. He must have his hands in position to receive the ball if it is snapped between the snapper’s legs but he is not required to receive the snap." By now the definition's probably been renumbered from the edition I'm using, but here's the wording in Rule 2 that makes that player a back: "A back is any A player who has no part of his body breaking the plane of an imaginary line drawn parallel to the line of scrimmage through the waist of the nearest teammate who is legally on the line, except for the player under the snapper, who is also considered a back." Why the definition doesn't use the same language as the formation requirement, rather than just "under the snapper", is beyond me. If you want to have your guard be a back, you can do it if his hands are in place like that. In that case he's not on the line but is a back, so you'd better make sure you have no more than 3 other backs in the formation.
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Post by bulldogsdc on Nov 23, 2021 7:59:12 GMT -6
This is all for fun............so............ and might need to be moved to rules section.... is it illegal for the center to sideways hand the ball to the guard?
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Post by pistolwhipped on Nov 23, 2021 8:44:37 GMT -6
This is all for fun............so............ and might need to be moved to rules section.... is it illegal for the center to sideways hand the ball to the guard? I believe the person who receives the snap cannot be on LOS.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 23, 2021 9:21:59 GMT -6
Why does the rule exist? Why do you need 7 on the line of scrimmage? It's for safety. It's so people don't get killed.
So if the questionable guy is outside the box and he's not in motion the offense gets the benefit of the doubt especially at the college level.
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Post by bobgoodman on Nov 23, 2021 12:42:42 GMT -6
Why does the rule exist? Why do you need 7 on the line of scrimmage? It's for safety. It's so people don't get killed. Originally, yes, it was for safety. 7 on the line had been the common number to play with since 1880, when the total number a side was set at 11. Walter Camp or some other commenter years later said that if they ever increased the number of players, the extras would undoubtedly be put on the line, because at that time (pre forward pass but also pre neutral zone and pre some of the other tactics I'll describe) it was seen as advantageous to the offense to do so, and defenses would need to follow. The Eton field football game, which was the inspiration for 11 a side, uses 8 forwards and only 3 backs. Because there was no neutral zone, originally the line players shoved against each other over that space before the ball was put in play. Later in the 19th Century, teams first saw the advantages of starting their line charge on a snap count, instead of contesting the space that would later become the neutral zone. Further, although teams most of the time would still play with 7 on the line, it was found advantageous for some of the O line to start in the backfield and get a running start to their interference. Because of the increased danger, first a rule was made to require at least 6 on the line, and in 1906 (along with the introduction of the neutral zone and the forward pass) that was increased to 7, which was convenient because then they also had a basis to limit the number of eligible forward pass receivers. Canadian football until 1966 required only a minimum of 5 on the line if no forward pass was thrown. On plays with a forward pass, at least 7 on the line were required. It was really only advantageous for protection against a blocked kick to have extra backs. But if you're asking why the rule was made forbidding putting the ball into play by passing from one line player to another, that had nothing to do with safety. When the snap was formalized, they wanted to make clear by rule when the ball would be in play. The ball would be in play originally when it was moved by foot by the player entitled to do so. However, previously the ball could not be handled "in scrimmage", so it had to leave the space between the forwards before it could be picked up. At some point early in the 1880s that form of restriction was abolished, and in its place was put a requirement that the ball be kicked forwards or heeled backwards clearly out of scrimmage. That is, the ball would no longer be live while in scrimmage except for the fraction of a second it took for it to leave that space. From that point players of both sides were allowed to move their feet to an offside position -- ahead of the ball -- although theoretically players on offense were still restricted against interfering with play while offside.
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Post by coachks on Nov 26, 2021 16:09:09 GMT -6
Why does the rule exist? Why do you need 7 on the line of scrimmage? It's for safety. It's so people don't get killed. So if the questionable guy is outside the box and he's not in motion the offense gets the benefit of the doubt especially at the college level. Because without the rule, the game will pretty quickly cease being football and become something else that is closer to Ultimate Frisbee. We have recent history that this is true with the A11 offense, and how quickly that loophole really changed the way the game was fundamentally changed until the loophole was closed (obviously by certain teams only for that 2? year period).
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 26, 2021 16:14:07 GMT -6
Why does the rule exist? Why do you need 7 on the line of scrimmage? It's for safety. It's so people don't get killed. So if the questionable guy is outside the box and he's not in motion the offense gets the benefit of the doubt especially at the college level. Because without the rule, the game will pretty quickly cease being football and become something else that is closer to Ultimate Frisbee. We have recent history that this is true with the A11 offense, and how quickly that loophole really changed the way the game was fundamentally changed until the loophole was closed (obviously by certain teams only for that 2? year period). I could tell you a lot more about the A11 and how it changed things, but I have to go speak at a clinic. via GIPHY
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Post by groundchuck on Nov 30, 2021 9:00:35 GMT -6
Earlier this season we played a team who consistently had 6 on the LOS the official would not throw a flag. He said there is no rule in football, and never was (those are his words) that say the offense has to have a certain number on the LOS. He threatened to throw a flag on me if I complained again. At halftime I talked to the white hat who said he would straiten out his crew.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 30, 2021 9:12:25 GMT -6
Earlier this season we played a team who consistently had 6 on the LOS the official would not throw a flag. He said there is no rule in football, and never was (those are his words) that say the offense has to have a certain number on the LOS. He threatened to throw a flag on me if I complained again. At halftime I talked to the white hat who said he would straiten out his crew. You used to have to have 7 on the LOS. No more. You can't have 5 or more in backfield now.
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