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Post by airraider on Dec 24, 2007 23:31:11 GMT -6
I put together this short video.. it was our 9th game.. we passed for just over 250 yards and 3tds..
This is the best team in our district and they have won something like 14 or 15 state championships.. they are far better than us.. but we held out own by spreading them and out sprinting away from pressure..
they tried several things on the night.. started out in Cov 0.. then showed some 2 as well as cover 0 with a bracket on #5.. #5 ended the game with 13 receptions for 143 yards and 3tds.. keep in mind this kid is 5'10 155.. and runs a 5.1 forty..
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Post by brophy on Dec 25, 2007 0:05:15 GMT -6
thank you for posting - wicked screens there.
I think it shows how you were able to use pretty simple concepts to put your kids in successful positions.
3:15 is why you don't man up on spread teams......
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Post by airitout616 on Dec 25, 2007 1:02:12 GMT -6
Great example on how to spread the field, move the football with the pass with lesser talent. The passing game can be a great equalizer.
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 6:38:32 GMT -6
Thanks guys.. another thing to keep in mind.. a lot of people's answer to 5 wide is "well we will just pressure you and if your QB can throw the ball from his back, then good for him, because we are going to hit him every play"
Several times you had guys coming completely free on defense and our QB only took hits on a few plays. He was only sacked twice on the night.
The QB felt like he threw the ball better rolling to his right, but if you can find someone who is comfortable doing both, then the sprint check with me would be great for you.
Something else that I felt that we did a good job of that I feel I do not see enough of.. throwing the 4 yard pass.
At 6:37 we were in a 3rd and 16 situation and we had a Flood play called. The QB threw the quick out and the guy did not make the tackle and we ended up turning a 4 yard pass into a first down. Imagine if you had a great athlete out there. He would make a lot of people miss the tackle.
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Dec 25, 2007 7:55:41 GMT -6
I put together this short video.. it was our 9th game...we passed for just over 250 yards and 3tds... Coach: Very nice indeed. You've combined the best features of the Dutch Meyer TCU Spread from the early 50's (sprint/running pass from 5 wide, some of the running game), Archie Cooley's "Satellite Express" offense at Mississippi Valley State from the early 80's (diamond quads wide to one side, then throw to your best receiver -- Jerry Rice, in his case -- wide to the other side), and the modern spread shotgun attack, as typified by Evangel Christian HS in Louisiana (scrimmage kick formation with passer 7 or more yards deep to protect the center from immediate attack, and the multiple screen game). And as you say, you won that game with less talent than your opponent. Image if talent had been equal...
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 8:04:51 GMT -6
I put together this short video.. it was our 9th game...we passed for just over 250 yards and 3tds... Coach: Very nice indeed. You've combined the best features of the Dutch Meyer TCU Spread from the early 50's (sprint/running pass from 5 wide, some of the running game), Archie Cooley's "Satellite Express" offense at Mississippi Valley State from the early 80's (diamond quads wide to one side, then throw to your best receiver -- Jerry Rice, in his case -- wide to the other side), and the modern spread shotgun attack, as typified by Evangel Christian HS in Louisiana (scrimmage kick formation with passer 7 or more yards deep to protect the center from immediate attack, and the multiple screen game). And as you say, you won that game with less talent than your opponent. Image if talent had been equal... Thanks Ted.. but dont get me wrong.. we did not win this one.. we won the next one.. This one.. their superiority showed against our defense. It was actually a good game mid way through the 2nd quarter.. but they pulled away pretty good in the second half.. We were not able to stop their running game (Wing-T) and they ended up putting up 54 on us.. But, we did score 3tds.. and were in the red zone 2 other times in the first half..
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tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 165
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Post by tedseay on Dec 25, 2007 8:06:39 GMT -6
Win or lose, you got the most out of your talent with that scheme -- a great job of coaching.
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 8:07:35 GMT -6
I like the execution, but with the score being 54-19 was that against their #1s? or backups. The last TD we scored was in the second half and they had started subbing. We faced several teams who would not sub on defense that much.. maybe it was because we were still throwing the ball.. The receiver caught 9 balls in the first half.. so some of those second half ones might have been on lesser talented kids.. but I would venture to say.. they were still better than we were.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 25, 2007 9:05:11 GMT -6
question for debate/thought---lets say you ran something else, dbl wing, wing t, veer..etc......couldn't you have scored 2 times ...but managed the clock such that the bad guys didn't get a chance to get 54?
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 9:17:17 GMT -6
Your kids were slower than molasses, but the QB seemed to do a nice job, I enjoyed the clips, thanks for posting. Why do you think you had better success in this game than others? I think the most outstanding reason was this was the first game that I took all of the thinking out of the QB's hands.. I finally gave up on trying to "coach" him and just gave him some simple tools to compete. I stopped trying to make him read the defense and then determine who would be open based on what.. I should have done it a lot earlier.. but we for this game.. I gave him simple progressions.. if this guy is open.. throw it.. if he is not look for this guy.. if he is not open.. run or throw it away..
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 9:20:26 GMT -6
question for debate/thought---lets say you ran something else, dbl wing, wing t, veer..etc......couldn't you have scored 2 times ...but managed the clock such that the bad guys didn't get a chance to get 54? I personally do believe it would have been any better.. Funny thing is.. we went into this game with a game plan of going in the I and running the ball and letting the shot clock roll so that they would not score 54.. but.. 3rd play.. FB tears his ACL and is hauled off in an ambulance.. So.. but they were so much more physically better than us.. we would not have been able to run the ball on them.. And it wasnt like time would have run out.. they scored several of their TDs in 5 plays or less.. even opened the game by returning the kick off for a TD.. We just did not have the line or the Wings to block well enough to run anything other than what we did.
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Post by tog on Dec 25, 2007 9:32:45 GMT -6
question for debate/thought---lets say you ran something else, dbl wing, wing t, veer..etc......couldn't you have scored 2 times ...but managed the clock such that the bad guys didn't get a chance to get 54? I personally do believe it would have been any better.. Funny thing is.. we went into this game with a game plan of going in the I and running the ball and letting the shot clock roll so that they would not score 54.. but.. 3rd play.. FB tears his ACL and is hauled off in an ambulance.. So.. but they were so much more physically better than us.. we would not have been able to run the ball on them.. And it wasnt like time would have run out.. they scored several of their TDs in 5 plays or less.. even opened the game by returning the kick off for a TD.. We just did not have the line or the Wings to block well enough to run anything other than what we did. ahhh a seldom brought up factor in the old "if you just run it it keeps the score down against those superior oppenents" hockey good job airraider
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 25, 2007 9:39:09 GMT -6
valid points--and know that I am not questioning the choice of offense...just throwing out some good debate topics. At the HS level, where you aren't able to "recruit" kids to fit your offense (or even at colleges where you get the bottom of the barrel kids like ULM or ULL etc..)...while the 4-5 wide offense works on the grease board schematically, when you factor in things such as ball control, physical toughness of team/defense, etc...is it a good choice for a "bad" team.
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 9:54:02 GMT -6
valid points--and know that I am not questioning the choice of offense...just throwing out some good debate topics. At the HS level, where you aren't able to "recruit" kids to fit your offense (or even at colleges where you get the bottom of the barrel kids like ULM or ULL etc..)...while the 4-5 wide offense works on the grease board schematically, when you factor in things such as ball control, physical toughness of team/defense, etc...is it a good choice for a "bad" team. I am sure there are certain guys out there who could take my team and make them competitive running the ball.. at least maybe there are.. But, as far as myself being hired for the job, I felt like "I" could only make them as good as possible using the spread offense. To me it kind of begs the comparison of basketball and wrestling. In basketball you can match up two teams with a huge talent gap, and the more superior team can be out played based on the other team being more technical. Hit every shot you take.. just as catch every pass we throw.. get open for shots by finding the voids.. use picks and rubs to get open.. use their lack of reaction time and your skill of being in sync to get you chances to score.. where as in wrestling.. there is a reason that they have weight classes.. although a kid who is 170lbs could possibly beat a 280lb kid if the smaller wrestler was much better technique wise.. the average match up would see the bigger kid prevail.. just simply because of the size comparison.. I just feel that when I have to go to battle with linemen weighing 170lbs.. and play against 250lb+ guys.. I might be better off just trying to get in their way and throw the ball.. Now, please take this as in my case only.. I am not saying "you" should feel this way or do any of this.. its simply the way I feel for my group of kids..
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 25, 2007 10:02:58 GMT -6
air---don't think ANYONE is saying anybody should feel anyway...just putting everything out on the table. When you go with the "spread" there are things that go with it...just like if you say we are going to play foot to foot, I am going to get 9 on your 5, and on defense we are going to play man and go and get you.....
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 10:20:16 GMT -6
air---don't think ANYONE is saying anybody should feel anyway...just putting everything out on the table. When you go with the "spread" there are things that go with it...just like if you say we are going to play foot to foot, I am going to get 9 on your 5, and on defense we are going to play man and go and get you..... I completely understand.. the only reason I am saying that "I feel" is because I do not want this to be viewed as one of those.. I think this is the best way because of this.. and everyone should do it threads.. I just dont see much 5 wide stuff out there.. so I wanted to post it just incase someone wanted to discuss anything..
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 25, 2007 10:32:29 GMT -6
Do you prefer 4x1 or 3x2 when you go to your empty sets?
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Post by bigballsincowtown on Dec 25, 2007 10:39:39 GMT -6
i have been at a school that has had a 2000 yd rusher (tb)from the I and a 1700 yd rusher (qb) from the spread. in my opinion the tempo changes and clock managment options that a coach can use with the spread are easier to handle the clock if you feel like you are going to take a whippin.
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 25, 2007 11:12:46 GMT -6
Imagine you are playing the #1 HS team in the country, where all 22 starters and several backups are all going to major D-1 schools. You have 12 guys and are seriously considering lining up a couple of your players' girlfriends at nose guard because they are bigger than the guys you currently have.
Let's say your only goal is to hold them under 30. Is the answer to take a knee every play and try to milk the clock? Well, you're giving up the chance to win, but you hopefully won't fumble. Now maybe you want to run the wedge scheme and get 2 yards a play but if you break one every few plays for 6 yards you might get a first down. Little chance of scoring much but hey, no fumbles, no risks, and milk the clock right?
Or you could open it up. What is opening it up? Maybe it's option. Maybe it's more faking and things like that. Maybe it's some screens, maybe it's some jet sweeps and option off of that look, maybe it's going 5 wide in 4x1 and 3x2 sets. What happens? Well, your chance of scoring has gone up, but so has your chance of turning the ball over. What if they get cold and make some mistakes? Well maybe you could then score a couple easy tds or get the ball in good field position, make a run at them. Or let's say you turn it over a few times. Might get ugly.
The point is like airraider said. If you've got nothing to lose, do you play to win? Or do you play to keep it respectable? I think the only "respectable" thing is to play to win. Save the low-risk 2 yards and a cloud of dust for when you've got the lead in the 4th quarter.
The flipside is if you're the team with great talent. Is the incentive there for you to go 5 wides every play and throw hail marys and run the crazy option and whatever else? I'm not so sure - you could beat them doing a lot of things - why take on the extra risk? But you might need that stuff to beat a team just as good as you.
The one thing I'll say about the NFL is that, even with the Patriots, there's no sisters of the poor there. and among the conferences most all those games are quite evenly matched. So they have to always play smart and take calculated risks. That's what football is, it's not sticking your head in the ground, it's taking the calculated risks. (And practicing and repping things so much that you reduce that risk.)
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Post by airraider on Dec 25, 2007 11:14:25 GMT -6
Do you prefer 4x1 or 3x2 when you go to your empty sets? Given the right athletes.. I really like the 4x1.. If they play less than 4 over the quads.. throw the screen.. If they play 4 there and have anyone deep.. run the draw.. If they play 4 and stack the box with single coverage on the single receiver.. try to win that match up man to man.. Just a good little game of cat and mouse..
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Post by ttone2210 on Dec 25, 2007 11:47:21 GMT -6
airraider, I've been thinking about this a lot since our season ended. We had a rookie qb (came out for football as a senior). 90% of our passing game was quick game with presnap reads. Post snap we read defenders and make decisions based on what they do. I took the deeper and more complicated routes out of the playbook to keep it simpler for him. But he struggled.
Half way thru the season, we opened it up a lot. Put more complicated routes in, deeper drops. Essentially told my QB, throw to the open guy.
He played very well the rest of the year. Confidence went way up. I wish maybe I hadn't "coached" him so much early in the year. Anyway this got me thinking a lot about qb's and how we coach them. When I played, I struggled with the route progression reads. I needed to have defensive reads and keys on every play. I needed to be "coached" heavily. My qb two years ago was like this aswell.
Are all QB's different? Will some excel without reading defenses? Will some others struggle with that style? If so, how can we figure out which style is best for each as soon as possible?
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Post by kurtbryan on Dec 25, 2007 12:38:48 GMT -6
Airraider:
Thanks for posting the video, looks good and working with less talented athletes than most of your competition does one of two things to coaches:
1. They either become a very good coach and get the most out of their players, via the running game or passing game as the primary ticket
2. They get frustrated and either quit or get fired.
** You have done a very nice job with your squad and deserve kudos for the system you have in place.
Merry Christmas!
Kurt Bryan
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Post by spreadattack on Dec 25, 2007 12:44:59 GMT -6
Well dave sure. I worried that my post would be seen as "all small schools must pass." That's not really what I meant. I do think that if a team has big horses and you try to plow into the line with no misdirection just trying to end games mercifully, that's no good. But I understand the logic.
Much of it depends how your defense is. It's like in basketball - if you can play good D, keep the scoring low (and not a running game) and push it to the end of the game, you have a chance. I suppose that's what that HS coach was angling to.
And also just because you throw it doesn't mean that (a) you can't control the clock, or (b) you have to be no huddle. You will have more incompletions but if you throw a lot of short passes and screens and move the chains you can be ball control as well. And like I said, your equalizer could be a Paul Johnson type offense or something else. It doesn't have to be 5 wides. Not sure if I'm totally clear, but the idea is just how do you give yourself a chance to win when overmatched? And I think you have to take on more risk in one way or another, which may increase the chance you'll get blown out, but also could increase the chance you'll do some big stuff.
The corollary depends on your D though. If you do not reasonably think you can hold them under 4 or 5 touchdowns, you have to take on some extra risk to get more points. All offense is a risk/return tradeoff. That's why you practice your option pitches, your passing game, your pass protection, and your reads. Look at the Patriots - you can throw it 40 times a game if you never get sacked and rarely throw interceptions (Tom Brady).
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Post by wingt74 on Dec 25, 2007 16:15:28 GMT -6
Your kids were slower than molasses, but the QB seemed to do a nice job, I enjoyed the clips, thanks for posting. Why do you think you had better success in this game than others? QB was the fastest player on the field and had excellent accuracy on the run.
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Post by los on Dec 25, 2007 17:32:11 GMT -6
Nice job airraider... I can't believe how well these kids executed this difficult offense, just learning it during this first season. Awesome teaching job there dude!
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Post by biggerblue on Dec 25, 2007 17:56:55 GMT -6
1. you guys did an awesome job of using the spread to equalize your talent to beat team that was very good. 2. at exacctly at 2:00 in that video we actually used that formation once this year on a 3rd and 25 ( its a good formation 3. your screen game is one of the best ive seen from the spread 4. one of th plays that u had in there the Fly sweep is one of my favorite plays of all time.... and i give u major major kudos for using it..
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 25, 2007 18:07:57 GMT -6
1. you guys did an awesome job of using the spread to equalize your talent to beat team that was very good. Airraider--amazing what a Highlight film/ cut -ups can portray eh? ;D (to avoid any confusion, I am pointing out that 2 posters have talked about Air's team using the spread to beat a more talented team. Unfortunately, Air has said they lost this game 54-19) I do think you guys executed the plays shown pretty well though.
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Post by los on Dec 25, 2007 18:26:02 GMT -6
Ha Ha Ha, Thats funny coach-d, you're sharp wit is coming through again Whats sad is... after 4 seasons running this type offense..... we didn't have enough decently executed pass plays to make a 5 min "highlight" film, lol! We could've filled volumes with "lowlights" though.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 25, 2007 18:30:43 GMT -6
los--lol... I thought it was funny that not one but TWO posts conveyed that same message.
You have to give Air credit though, it was a tough situation to be in.
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Post by brophy on Dec 25, 2007 19:16:30 GMT -6
1. you guys did an awesome job of using the spread to equalize your talent to beat team that was very good. 2. at exacctly at 2:00 in that video we actually used that formation once this year on a 3rd and 25 ( its a good formation 3. your screen game is one of the best ive seen from the spread 4. one of th plays that u had in there the Fly sweep is one of my favorite plays of all time.... and i give u major major kudos for using it.. They lost this one by 35 points coach with all due respect, airraider didn't have to post these clips. The team this was against is a 1A powerhouse in Louisiana. The video was an illustration of what he ran this year so folks could get a visual of what he has been talking about with limited talent. Feel free to post clips of the HS team you are coordinating for, dave. If we are relying on legitimizing concepts soley off of playoff success rates or state titles won, this board would dwindle overnight.
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