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Post by oldpro on Oct 5, 2021 21:58:42 GMT -6
What are your keys to deciding your choices on the coin toss?
I once worked for a guy, new to head HS coaching, former middle school guy. Said his philosophy was to ALWAYS take the ball. We played one night on a hill top stadium and the wind was really blowing. I told him to think about defending with the wind at our back. He took the ball, the other team took the wind and a close matchup had us trailing 0-24 after one qtr. Lost 0-41. Next week strong wind again. We take the ball. SMH
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mc140
Sophomore Member
Posts: 220
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Post by mc140 on Oct 5, 2021 23:34:33 GMT -6
Defer except under two circumstances.
#1. Playing a team who likes to play slow and bleed the clock.
#2 Playing a team who is far and above better than us. I would rather start the game with the ball 0-0 then start the second half down 35-0.
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Post by CS on Oct 6, 2021 3:55:41 GMT -6
What are your keys to deciding your choices on the coin toss? I once worked for a guy, new to head HS coaching, former middle school guy. Said his philosophy was to ALWAYS take the ball. We played one night on a hill top stadium and the wind was really blowing. I told him to think about defending with the wind at our back. He took the ball, the other team took the wind and a close matchup had us trailing 0-24 after one qtr. Lost 0-41. Next week strong wind again. We take the ball. SMH You make a good point but if y’all got beat 41-0 the wind didn’t matter |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2021 5:00:09 GMT -6
What are your keys to deciding your choices on the coin toss? I once worked for a guy, new to head HS coaching, former middle school guy. Said his philosophy was to ALWAYS take the ball. We played one night on a hill top stadium and the wind was really blowing. I told him to think about defending with the wind at our back. He took the ball, the other team took the wind and a close matchup had us trailing 0-24 after one qtr. Lost 0-41. Next week strong wind again. We take the ball. SMH Coach, regardless of the coin toss decision, you had the wind at your back for 2 quarters. The 2 quarters whose end also brings about the end of a possession so passing the ball is usually more common for all teams. I am not sure the wind and coin toss was responsible for a 24-0 opening quarter or 41-0 shutout. |
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Post by newhope on Oct 6, 2021 5:13:19 GMT -6
Defer: that chance of scoring just before the half and then getting the ball to start the second half is equivalent to a turnover. That's huge
As noted above a strong wind MIGHT affect your decision in certain circumstances
I have a few times taken the ball when I knew our offense was so superior to their defense that we were going to score and set a tone for the night.
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Post by tripsclosed on Oct 6, 2021 6:07:36 GMT -6
Usually I would rather get the ball to start the second half and here's why:
If we are up 1-2 scores, it's a chance to go ahead and get up 2-3 scores right out of the half
If the score is tied, it's a chance to get up a score right out of the half
If we are down 1-2 scores, it's a chance to get the score to down one score or tied right out of the half
All three of those are positive
Now, reverse that:
If we are up 1-2 scores and they score on us, we are now up only 1 score or it's tied. Not a good way to start the second half
If it is tied and they score, they are now up a score. Not a good way to start the second half
If they are up 1-2 scores and they score, they are now up 2-3 scores. Definitely NOT a good way to start the second half
All that said, if you receive the ball to start the second half, at worst, outside of your team turning the ball over or taking a huge loss, you gain a few yards, punt the ball and put the opponent in their own territory, and on you go. At best, you make an already decent lead bigger.
However, if the opponent receives, at best, you stop them for no gain and they punt away to you and pin you in your own territory and you now have to drive the field (if you receive the ball to start the second half, in HS, there's a decent chance you get a good return and have good FP to start the second half). At worst, they score and make an already bad deficit worse.
There could be holes in my thinking so I'm glad to to take suggestions, but that is my best answer for now.
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Post by larrymoe on Oct 6, 2021 6:23:35 GMT -6
I always took the ball because of the style we played and knowing our kids' psyche I wanted to go out and set the tone for the game by going on a bruising, long drive. We always believed our best defense was our offense. Especially if we were playing a faster team. "It's really hard to run fast after you've been hit by a truck" was what we told the kids all the time. And so many coachesare trained to defer we got the ball probably 85% of the time. I REALLY believe it was a main reason we went on that great 24 game regular season win streak. We controlled the pace and tone of the game from the opening whistle.
You can drastically change a lot of coach's game plans and completely take them off script by going on a 6-7 minute scoring drive. Takes a lot of wind out of their kids' sails too. Get a defensive stop and then get a quicker paced score on the second possession? Game may as well be over if you're any good.
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth."
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Post by tog on Oct 6, 2021 7:26:01 GMT -6
I always took the ball because of the style we played and knowing our kids' psyche I wanted to go out and set the tone for the game by going on a bruising, long drive. We always believed our best defense was our offense. Especially if we were playing a faster team. "It's really hard to run fast after you've been hit by a truck" was what we told the kids all the time. And so many coachesare trained to defer we got the ball probably 85% of the time. I REALLY believe it was a main reason we went on that great 24 game regular season win streak. We controlled the pace and tone of the game from the opening whistle. You can drastically change a lot of coach's game plans and completely take them off script by going on a 6-7 minute scoring drive. Takes a lot of wind out of their kids' sails too. Get a defensive stop and then get a quicker paced score on the second possession? Game may as well be over if you're any good. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." This is the main factor I was going to bring up. My last HC was a defensive minded guy and always deferred, until we starting running triple option stuff. That completely changed his thought process on it. (I had to do some convincing) We wanted to suck the wind right out of things and just physically abuse people that cant get ready in a week for it. Even if we didn't score the first drive, we always moved the ball the first series or two until they figure out the speed of how fast that fullback can hit. It gives this style team an advantage. And like larrymoe said,,,,if they have one screw up, most of these teas now will get greedy which leads to 3 and outs or short drives. Good, go sit on the bench with your hi falutiin offense for another 8 minutes and get even more frustrated as we take 4 a play. |
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Post by 60zgo on Oct 6, 2021 7:52:45 GMT -6
We onside kick a lot. Not every time but probably 8/10. So we always choose to receive. We are trying to steal possessions as much as possible.
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 6, 2021 8:14:28 GMT -6
We always take the ball. If they win the toss we are probably 50/50 to onside it (depends on how good their offense is). We want the ball
Played a wing-t team last Friday who, when given the chance, will bleed the clock when tied or ahead. Line up, watch the back judge until his hand is up, and run the play.
We typically get 8-10 possessions offensively against normal team, but against them we get 6 with 2-3 possessions in the first half. Against a team like that a lot comes down to who scores first...when we do we are 5-0 historically against them. When scoring first these games aren't close and Friday wasn't any different (42-0). When we don't score first we are 3-2, and the games are super close.
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Post by carookie on Oct 6, 2021 10:08:59 GMT -6
Unless you think you can finagle an extra possession out of deferring to the second half, then the receive or defer thing isnt of too much concern to me.
That being written, there are some factors I consider when choosing what side to defend (if that choice is ours). In general we will defend the clock, so that we can face it at the end of the half/game (give our QB a chance to see whats going on in case of a hurry up situation).
Weather wise, in addition to wind sometimes the sun can be a factor. One time played a team with the sun sitting in the back of the endzone right near kickoff. We defended the sun side as we kicked twice in the opening quarter, and they bobbled both of them.
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Post by tripsclosed on Oct 6, 2021 10:09:20 GMT -6
We always take the ball. If they win the toss we are probably 50/50 to onside it (depends on how good their offense is). We want the ball Played a wing-t team last Friday who, when given the chance, will bleed the clock when tied or ahead. Line up, watch the back judge until his hand is up, and run the play. We typically get 8-10 possessions offensively against normal team, but against them we get 6 with 2-3 possessions in the first half. Against a team like that a lot comes down to who scores first...when we do we are 5-0 historically against them. When scoring first these games aren't close and Friday wasn't any different (42-0). When we don't score first we are 3-2, and the games are super close. What you said about the Wing-T team, I would probably alter my philosophy I wrote above if I was playing that type of offense and/or was running that type of offense. If we are running it, you impose your will on them and go on a long drive to start the game, that is not the way you want to start a game if you are the opponent against that. If we are facing that, I would receive to try to prevent the above from happening. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2021 10:12:47 GMT -6
Usually I would rather get the ball to start the second half and here's why: If we are up 1-2 scores, it's a chance to go ahead and get up 2-3 scores right out of the half If the score is tied, it's a chance to get up a score right out of the half If we are down 1-2 scores, it's a chance to get the score to down one score or tied right out of the half All three of those are positive Now, reverse that: If we are up 1-2 scores and they score on us, we are now up only 1 score or it's tied. Not a good way to start the second half If it is tied and they score, they are now up a score. Not a good way to start the second half If they are up 1-2 scores and they score, they are now up 2-3 scores. Definitely NOT a good way to start the second half All that said, if you receive the ball to start the second half, at worst, outside of your team turning the ball over or taking a huge loss, you gain a few yards, punt the ball and put the opponent in their own territory, and on you go. At best, you make an already decent lead bigger. However, if the opponent receives, at best, you stop them for no gain and they punt away to you and pin you in your own territory and you now have to drive the field (if you receive the ball to start the second half, in HS, there's a decent chance you get a good return and have good FP to start the second half). At worst, they score and make an already bad deficit worse. There could be holes in my thinking so I'm glad to to take suggestions, but that is my best answer for now. I dont think there are really any holes in this type of thinking. It essentially underscores the key element at play here- information. If you defer, you get to make your decision with more information (the info gained from the first half of play |
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moose18
Junior Member
"If it didn't matter who won or lost, they wouldn't keep score"
Posts: 286
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Post by moose18 on Oct 6, 2021 10:24:05 GMT -6
I like to defer unless I think I have the superior team, then I want the ball first. Score early and set the tone
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Post by silkyice on Oct 6, 2021 10:39:46 GMT -6
I always take the ball first.
Main reason: Read a stat where the team the gets the ball first wins 50.1% of the time. Or something like that. It was above 50.
Second reason: Read a stat where the team the scores first wins 66.4% of the time. You are definitely more likely to score first if you get the ball first.
Third reason: Since we take the ball and most everyone else defers, we get start the game with the ball over 90 plus percent of the time. So it is consistent with us. But for almost everyone else, they start with ball sometimes and don't sometimes. I think there is some advantage there. Don't know what it is, but... Ha
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 6, 2021 11:08:10 GMT -6
I always take the ball first. Main reason: Read a stat where the team the gets the ball first wins 50.1% of the time. Or something like that. It was above 50. Second reason: Read a stat where the team the scores first wins 66.4% of the time. You are definitely more likely to score first if you get the ball first. Third reason: Since we take the ball and most everyone else defers, we get start the game with the ball over 90 plus percent of the time. So it is consistent with us. But for almost everyone else, they start with ball sometimes and don't sometimes. I think there is some advantage there. Don't know what it is, but... Ha Coach- I think the 3rd reason is probably a stronger argument than the first two to be honest. The second argument is going to be influenced by the fact that in many wins The far superior team is going to score 1st |
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Post by Down 'n Out on Oct 6, 2021 12:14:00 GMT -6
I defer, were mostly 2 way players so I want everyone working our jitters out on defense(assuming the opponent is working their jitters out on their offensive possession) that way our offense hits the ground running.
Now in one of our upcoming game I want the ball first, I think it would be good for us to start with momentum and we are sort of "finding ourselves" offensively.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 6, 2021 13:43:03 GMT -6
I always take the ball first. Main reason: Read a stat where the team the gets the ball first wins 50.1% of the time. Or something like that. It was above 50. Second reason: Read a stat where the team the scores first wins 66.4% of the time. You are definitely more likely to score first if you get the ball first. Third reason: Since we take the ball and most everyone else defers, we get start the game with the ball over 90 plus percent of the time. So it is consistent with us. But for almost everyone else, they start with ball sometimes and don't sometimes. I think there is some advantage there. Don't know what it is, but... Ha Coach- I think the 3rd reason is probably a stronger argument than the first two to be honest. The second argument is going to be influenced by the fact that in many wins The far superior team is going to score 1st Don't really disagree. That 66.4% holds up pretty well in the NFL and even the playoffs and super bowl where the teams should be more evenly matched. It is actually higher in the playoffs and super bowl. I imagine it is even higher in high school where there are even more mismatches. Now, OF COURSE, that stat is heavily influenced because the "better" team that day should more than likely score first. But, it is just as good as any reason to take the ball first. And it is definitely better than the "double a team up" reason. Don't get me wrong that is awesome when you do that. But if your team can control the fact that you will be the last to posses the ball at the end of the first half with any meaningful time and also score and then also get the ball and score at the beginning of the first half, well then, you probably are the better team anyways. Ha |
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Post by Defcord on Oct 6, 2021 15:45:57 GMT -6
What are your keys to deciding your choices on the coin toss? I once worked for a guy, new to head HS coaching, former middle school guy. Said his philosophy was to ALWAYS take the ball. We played one night on a hill top stadium and the wind was really blowing. I told him to think about defending with the wind at our back. He took the ball, the other team took the wind and a close matchup had us trailing 0-24 after one qtr. Lost 0-41. Next week strong wind again. We take the ball. SMH I’ve figured out what’s been going wrong on defense, we’ve been messing up the coin toss. |
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Post by CoachMikeJudy on Oct 7, 2021 7:44:09 GMT -6
As a follow-up, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer here. Whatever is chosen IMO must match your philosophy, intent, and game conditions.
Side note- I don't think game (weather) conditions has affected our coin toss philosophy is my 8yrs as HC.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 7, 2021 7:55:22 GMT -6
And it is definitely better than the "double a team up" reason. Don't get me wrong that is awesome when you do that. But if your team can control the fact that you will be the last to posses the ball at the end of the first half with any meaningful time and also score and then also get the ball and score at the beginning of the first half, well then, you probably are the better team anyways. Ha I have gotten into this self quoting thing. Ha If your team is good enough to "double someone up", Can't you "double someone up" in the first half by taking the ball first? Meaning, get the ball first and score and then make sure that you are the last team to posses the ball with meaningful time to score and also score at the end of the first half. Both scenarios should literally have the same probability of happening if two teams are equal. Or I should really say, have the same probability of not happening. |
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Post by bobgoodman on Oct 7, 2021 8:03:54 GMT -6
If you're thinking of making your decision based on one end of the field's being advantageous, remember that you change ends with the quarters. So unless you're basing your decision on the likelihood of the wind's shifting, or the sun's going down, in that length of time, don't.
I coach in youth football, where it does matter, because most of the time we don't change ends with the quarters. And they've usually been day games, where the sun matters; you want the other team's receivers looking back into the sun. Fortunately we haven't been on fields where one end is higher or the lighting's bad in one corner, but occasionally there could be a swampy area in one.
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Post by jgordon1 on Oct 7, 2021 12:47:42 GMT -6
What are your keys to deciding your choices on the coin toss? I once worked for a guy, new to head HS coaching, former middle school guy. Said his philosophy was to ALWAYS take the ball. We played one night on a hill top stadium and the wind was really blowing. I told him to think about defending with the wind at our back. He took the ball, the other team took the wind and a close matchup had us trailing 0-24 after one qtr. Lost 0-41. Next week strong wind again. We take the ball. SMH didn't you have your back to the wind during two of those quarters?? |
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CoachC
Freshmen Member
Posts: 56 
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Post by CoachC on Oct 13, 2021 7:04:50 GMT -6
Whatever you do, don't assume your young/new captains know what "differ" means. I watched a JV kid win the toss and tell the refs we wanted to kick. Didn't realize that's what happened until the start of the 2nd half of course. Ended up kicking to start both halves. Smh... While one might think a ref in a JV game would ask the kid if "kicking" was really what he meant to say, he did not. Thankfully our team won the game anyway... good learning experience for coaches too, I guess.
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Post by wildcatslbcoach24 on Oct 13, 2021 17:11:25 GMT -6
Defer unless the other team is so good that you have to go on offense first to game manage the clock.
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Post by veerman on Oct 14, 2021 7:36:25 GMT -6
If you feel your defense can stop them with a possible 3 and out the first series-defer
If you feel you need to shorten the game and make long drives-receive
If you feel teams are equal and neither has an advantage and want to take a chance at possible double up series after half-defer
If you feel you can set the tone, and opponent not respond well- receive
..that's kinda the mind set I take.
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Post by newhope on Oct 14, 2021 7:49:36 GMT -6
If you're thinking of making your decision based on one end of the field's being advantageous, remember that you change ends with the quarters. So unless you're basing your decision on the likelihood of the wind's shifting, or the sun's going down, in that length of time, don't. I coach in youth football, where it does matter, because most of the time we don't change ends with the quarters. And they've usually been day games, where the sun matters; you want the other team's receivers looking back into the sun. Fortunately we haven't been on fields where one end is higher or the lighting's bad in one corner, but occasionally there could be a swampy area in one. I will give you an example of last Friday night that I would make a solid argument against this. We were down 14-0 at the half, with the other team scoring right before the half. We struggle offensively due to a young, small, inexperienced line but we play solid defense. We have an outstanding kicker/punter and are excellent at special teams. The key for us is to use the kicking game to pin the other team back, play good defense, and find an opportunity for the offense to score on a short field. The wind was blowing pretty good at the start of the second half, enough that our kickoff was going to likely fall inside the five rather than in the end zone if we did the normal "take the scoreboard at your back" deal. We chose to kickoff with the wind at our back instead. (I'm not really sure of any real advantage to the scoreboard). He kicked it out of the back of the end zone. We pinned them the entire second half, got a field goal with the wind to our back, broke one long run, used short field on another, and with the wind having died down some, kicked the last kickoff--with a minute and a half to play out of the end zone. Choosing wind made all the difference to us. Now---not exactly the same as wind over ball--we didn't do that, the other team was getting the ball anyhow. BTW--I coached basketball many, many years ago in a gym where the placement of the windows allowed the sun to play a signifcant role in afternoon games. Always made sure the other team got the sun to start the game. Later, no issue since the sun went down. That and the brackets with the baskets coming out of the floor made a heck of an advantage. |
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Post by spreadattack on Oct 14, 2021 18:11:23 GMT -6
I always took the ball because of the style we played and knowing our kids' psyche I wanted to go out and set the tone for the game by going on a bruising, long drive. We always believed our best defense was our offense. Especially if we were playing a faster team. "It's really hard to run fast after you've been hit by a truck" was what we told the kids all the time. And so many coachesare trained to defer we got the ball probably 85% of the time. I REALLY believe it was a main reason we went on that great 24 game regular season win streak. We controlled the pace and tone of the game from the opening whistle. You can drastically change a lot of coach's game plans and completely take them off script by going on a 6-7 minute scoring drive. Takes a lot of wind out of their kids' sails too. Get a defensive stop and then get a quicker paced score on the second possession? Game may as well be over if you're any good. "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." This is the main factor I was going to bring up. My last HC was a defensive minded guy and always deferred, until we starting running triple option stuff. That completely changed his thought process on it. (I had to do some convincing) We wanted to suck the wind right out of things and just physically abuse people that cant get ready in a week for it. Even if we didn't score the first drive, we always moved the ball the first series or two until they figure out the speed of how fast that fullback can hit. It gives this style team an advantage. And like larrymoe said,,,,if they have one screw up, most of these teas now will get greedy which leads to 3 and outs or short drives. Good, go sit on the bench with your hi falutiin offense for another 8 minutes and get even more frustrated as we take 4 a play. Navy just opened this Memphis game with a 21 play, 13:10 second touchdown drive, using up almost the entire first quarter. On the other hand as I type this, Memphis immediately answered with a 31 yard kick return followed by a 70 yard touchdown run.  |
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Post by coachd5085 on Oct 14, 2021 18:48:36 GMT -6
Whatever you do, don't assume your young/new captains know what "differ" means. I watched a JV kid win the toss and tell the refs we wanted to kick. Didn't realize that's what happened until the start of the 2nd half of course. Ended up kicking to start both halves. Smh... While one might think a ref in a JV game would ask the kid if "kicking" was really what he meant to say, he did not. Thankfully our team won the game anyway... good learning experience for coaches too, I guess. I am not sure why my captains need to understand what it means to be unlike or dissimilar  But yes I want them to know what it means to put off our choice until the second half. |
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Post by newhope on Oct 15, 2021 8:23:39 GMT -6
Whatever you do, don't assume your young/new captains know what "differ" means. I watched a JV kid win the toss and tell the refs we wanted to kick. Didn't realize that's what happened until the start of the 2nd half of course. Ended up kicking to start both halves. Smh... While one might think a ref in a JV game would ask the kid if "kicking" was really what he meant to say, he did not. Thankfully our team won the game anyway... good learning experience for coaches too, I guess. Officials in our area ask me prior to the game what we're going to do with the toss and then tell me they won't let the captain mess it up. Best story I have on this is the little kids game our coaching staff was refereeing years ago. Little kid (maybe 10 yrs old at best) won the toss. When I asked what he wanted to do, he said "We...uh...um..we....um.....we... PREFER to play the second half!" |
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But yes I want them to know what it means to put off our choice until the second half.