ike2112
Sophomore Member
Posts: 158
|
Post by ike2112 on Dec 20, 2005 14:07:35 GMT -6
A mini debate about run game blocking scheme broke out in this thread: coachhuey.proboards42.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1134968494&page=1and made me realise that I need to learn a lot more about there being many different philosophies for run blocking. I think I understand the zone/landmark if that's what we do - block a gap and if there's nobody in it help the guy next to you. But what's the difference between that and blocking angles mentioned in the thread above by 'mav'? |
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 22, 2005 10:48:40 GMT -6
As I understand it, there is a definite difference between zone blocking and ‘angle blocking” (which could be option/veer blocking, rule blocking, etc.). Angle blocking creates good angles for a OL to block his man a specific direction. It is more limited, but the objective is to put the OL in the best position for the easiest block. Zone blocking somewhat does that, but it may begin with the OL NOT having an advantageous angle. What zone blocking does that gives it an advantage is it accounts for a lot more in terms of defensive movement and reaction (ie: the zone schemes I know will have the OL attempt to block a certain way, but allows for a lot of adjustments as long as contact is maintained).
Help in the form of a double team is probably more prevalent in zone schemes, but Dbl. Wing and Wing T teams do a lot of it as well with more of an "angle" scheme.
Angle blocking types are much more prevalent in 2 and 3 back offenses- because backs can account for LBs and DEs. The trend is definitely for more zone schemes with the increase of one back base offenses and attacking (rather than reading) defenses.
|
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Dec 22, 2005 13:07:35 GMT -6
steve-
agreed here, i coach with ethics. picks in the pecs baby!!!
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 22, 2005 20:13:18 GMT -6
I don't see a damn thing wrong with holding.
|
|
|
|
Post by los on Dec 22, 2005 21:05:46 GMT -6
You don't have to hold coach calende, just some tired, slow or unconditioned lazy linemen hold! We run a lot of zone blocking inside and most of our holding calls are on our recievers. Its what you teach and tolerate!
|
|
|
|
Post by sls on Dec 22, 2005 22:16:56 GMT -6
It is only holding if an official calls it holding. If the official does not call it holding, it is a good block. I believe this past year my receivers were called for 3 holding penalties and my OL 1.
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 11:16:11 GMT -6
in the rule book if the hands are in the frame of the body, it is not holding
therefore, I will go to the full extent of the rules to ensure my team's success.
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 15:36:42 GMT -6
doesnt it say anything in the rule book about grasping another player? i believe it does ...if you grab another player, thats H-O-L-D-I-N-G...im sure of it...you cant just grab the guys belt buckle and hold on can ya? thats within the framework...hey, do whatever it takes to win, but think about it..its cheating. I know, im all controversial here...just having fun. Let me continue being controversial...how many of you guys have the face mask in the numbers or under the chin when blocking? keep the face/helmet out of the block and tackle right?....pretty tough to use the hands method and not make 3 point contact... you are supposed to make 3 point contact |
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 15:41:16 GMT -6
what the hell is butt block?
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 15:45:57 GMT -6
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 15:47:37 GMT -6
can't use your face?
face and hands when you block, make the triangle
see what you hit
all a stupid rule like that is going to do is get some kids hurt
you have to use your face
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 15:56:08 GMT -6
no, what does it say, (sorry, my rule book is in my glove box so i dont forget to take it to games) about hands...cupped or something like that?...can you print some text here? click the links man Ya know something funny...i coached that triangle, three point contact...one year ,(9th graders now) we had a beastly tackle, like 240 or something and no one could give him a look in practice at "king of the boards" so I took him on...man, id plant my face into his chest and stand his big arse up...i left that night with a terrible kink in my neck and pain in my arm...i never taught hands/face blocking again. I immediately began looking into shoulder blocking. just for safety...afterall, the rule book says i cant do it, our league rules interpretation said we cant use our face....but if i taught it and someone got hurt...well, id be up a creek. whatever works for you man those "rules" you are playing by seem real pussified though, is that some kind of local youth rule? |
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 16:04:56 GMT -6
do you have the same rules about tackling?
that would be unsafe in my mind
would lead to people tackling with their head down
and some piss poor tackling too
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 16:10:37 GMT -6
why don't you just ask tim here?
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 16:12:01 GMT -6
no, they dont want head down, they want the face off to the side...shoulder tackling...anyhow, it goes nicely with shoulder blocking... then i wouldn't want to go there |
|
jman
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by jman on Dec 23, 2005 16:41:31 GMT -6
I coach in one of those "pussified" federation states as do a very LARGE majority of us. We coach the triangle, 3 points of contact. Never in 8 years of coaching in this state have we every even been warned not to do that.
And yes, if it is inside the framework, it is not holding.
How does one teach tackling without using the head? You know...get your head across the bow.
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 16:48:55 GMT -6
I coach in one of those "pussified" federation states as do a very LARGE majority of us. We coach the triangle, 3 points of contact. Never in 8 years of coaching in this state have we every even been warned not to do that. And yes, if it is inside the framework, it is not holding. How does one teach tackling without using the head? You know...get your head across the bow. I do have a problem with the no cutting downfield rule, but don't have a problem with any of the coaches anywhere. It just seemed to me that those "rules" calande is working under seem to go against the grain of football anywhere I have ever heard of. Federation, ncca, anywhere. So, please don't take the "pussified" comment as a comment on the coaching, players, or style of play in other states. I have talked with enough guys from other states and seen enough film to have total respect. But, cutting downfield should be legal. And not using the triangle to block because it is illegal does seem like a pussified rule to me. |
|
jman
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by jman on Dec 23, 2005 16:56:06 GMT -6
tog,
Believe me, as a triple option coach, I completely agree. Not being able to "cut" block truly makes it difficult on us. We have to teach arc blocking instead and we feel that it is the most difficult thing we do.
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 17:00:29 GMT -6
|
|
jman
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by jman on Dec 23, 2005 17:22:07 GMT -6
sorry tog,
I followed the link but there was no reply button.
Forgive my lack of computer skills.
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 17:23:52 GMT -6
sorry tog, I followed the link but there was no reply button. Forgive my lack of computer skills. go to the last post there should be a reply button there or if you want to quote someone, hit quote in any post and that will open up a reply window for you also, the quick reply window should have opened at the bottom of the thread? did it not? |
|
jman
Sophomore Member
Posts: 200
|
Post by jman on Dec 23, 2005 17:44:18 GMT -6
sorry tog, I followed the link but there was no reply button. Forgive my lack of computer skills. go to the last post there should be a reply button there or if you want to quote someone, hit quote in any post and that will open up a reply window for you also, the quick reply window should have opened at the bottom of the thread? did it not? Still no reply button and no quote buttons on the posts. The quick reply didnt show either. |
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 23, 2005 17:50:01 GMT -6
hmmm
don't know what that means, the thread isn't locked, huey?
|
|
|
|
Post by los on Dec 23, 2005 19:24:53 GMT -6
Never heard the facemask thing before, but in tackling it's one of my ABC's and always will be!I use to do it back in the old days when we had to make wings during blocking but its not as essential nowdays with the ability to use your hands and arms for leverage! I've never seen it called as a penalty and every team I've ever watched in Ga. uses their facemasks to block and tackle! Part of the game to me and most everybody else around here. I guess we could always take the facemasks off and play without them(again) if all the lawyers are worried about injury's! That last part is a little joke, coach calande.
|
|
|
|
Post by senatorblutarsky on Dec 24, 2005 11:45:51 GMT -6
what the hell is butt block?
I am not sure- though years ago an official said we were doing it... (he never called anything). I thought it was like spearing... I don't know. It is not a "point of emphasis" so I haven't heard anything about it in over 10 years.
We have also been warned/cited for:
Intimating (I think he meant intimidating... because no one was mimicking the snap count)
Barking (I can't explain this one)
and my favorite;
Unsportsmanlike Conduct because our guys were "laughing at them and talking about where we were going to eat after the game during the play". Our guys were calling McDonalds (for Combo) and it really set off the official.
Anyway... holding is in every type of system (zone or otherwise), done by every player and every team. I don't teach my guys to hold, but I do teach them to lock on and use the far reaches of the rule. To me (not all officials buy this)- keeping a guy in the frame is NOT holding. Holding usually happens when your feet don't keep up, you are lazy and probaby deserve to get called.
We get called for holding about once every two games... until that changes, I will keep instructing the same way I do now.
|
|
|
|
Post by knight9299 on Dec 24, 2005 12:19:15 GMT -6
But, cutting downfield should be legal. Please tell me you're joking? If you can't block me without going at my ankles (outside the tackle box that is) than you can't block me! As far as holding goes, if the guys hands are inside the frame than fine. But as soon as a hand is on a shoulder or around the back or there's jersey being pulled away from the defenders body that's holding. |
|
|
|
Post by Mav on Dec 24, 2005 14:46:34 GMT -6
Similar to the two basic defensive pass coverage concepts of man-to-man and zone. OLine blocking has man and zone principles also.
Think of angle blocking as aggressive 'man-to-man' blocking. Pre-snap the OLine will know where the point of attack of the play is and how the defense is aligned. They will then make line calls to each other and the backs, comminicating who will block each defender. The calls are based on who has an easier/better angle on the defender. The end result is a predetermined hole or running lane for the back. OLinemen are trained to avoid reach blocks and fold blocking instead. At the snap the OLine aggressively attacks the defensive players. The primary downside of this attacking Oline style is the run-through lanes that opens up for active LBs and DLinemen. With defenses moving away from reading and reacting and more towards an attacking style, OLine blocking evolved from angle to zone at the higher levels. We have found man blocking to be easier to teach and execute at our HS.
Others, please feel free to comment.
|
|
|
|
Post by coachcalande on Dec 24, 2005 15:28:06 GMT -6
Oh ok, I see Kw, it was an ignorant comment because you dont agree with it...if you can teach it without holding then why dont coaches stop holding? Every college and nfl game I watch is absolutely loaded with zone blocking and big boys in tights dancing with each other...and ill tell ya this, to my ignorant untrained lower level coaching eyes, it looks alot like holding when they grab cloth or actually the hands come to the shoulder pads and they grab their shoulders, chest plates, sleeves etc... as a matter of fact, i think most of the linemen try to a) cut their sleeves off or wear pads and jerseys about 4 sizes too small so THAT THEY WONT BE HELD. now, id think that by the time a guy got to college or pro football hed have learned how NOT TO HOLD...BUT THE TRUTH IS ITS JUST THE OPPOSITE! HES NOT ONLY LEARNED HOW TO HOLD, BUT HOW TO DO SO MORE EFFECTIVELY AND GET AWAY WITH IT!
...tell ya what sir, why dont you tell me how YOU teach the zone blocking stuff...im the lowly lower level coach here. Now, I have read your posts before so please try to use language that I can understand. Do you, or do you not teach the oline men to grab the defender?
YOUR OWN POST ADMITS THAT ITS HOLDING SO HOW WAS IT "IGNORANT?"
"I coach at the college level and yes as long as the hands are inside the framework of the defender holding will never get called. ask most college and NFL coaches and they are going to push the limits."
|
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 24, 2005 16:52:10 GMT -6
But, cutting downfield should be legal. Please tell me you're joking? If you can't block me without going at my ankles (outside the tackle box that is) than you can't block me! it is legal and very necessary to be able to throw in Texas, otherwise the defenders that can also throw below the waist todig things out or spill like they can in the NCAA would make any perimeter running by undertalented teams a thing of the past |
|
|
|
Post by tog on Dec 24, 2005 16:56:33 GMT -6
and there isn't a damn thing wrong with holding
getting penalties for it that hurt your team yes, that is a problem
holding within the rules, geez, if you aren't grabbing cloth a little, then you aren't trying
|
|
