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Post by 44dlcoach on Dec 27, 2020 19:08:17 GMT -6
So what they are lacking is membership in a Power 5 conference?
If Liberty has the means to outspend Ohio State and Air Force academy has the means to outspend Ohio State, but both choose not to, I'm having a really hard time following the logic that one of those schools is doing more with less, and the other is not.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2020 19:11:08 GMT -6
So what they are lacking is membership in a Power 5 conference? If Liberty has the means to outspend Ohio State and Air Force academy has the means to outspend Ohio State, but both choose not to, I'm having a really hard time following the logic that one of those schools is doing more with less, and the other is not. maybe LU is a bad example, but anyways I am done.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 27, 2020 19:38:32 GMT -6
So what they are lacking is membership in a Power 5 conference? If Liberty has the means to outspend Ohio State and Air Force academy has the means to outspend Ohio State, but both choose not to, I'm having a really hard time following the logic that one of those schools is doing more with less, and the other is not. maybe LU is a bad example, but anyways I am done. I think perhaps you stating that the military academics are NOT examples because they could spend the Pentagon's bank roll and suspend the other requirements for admittance simply to win football games... is the bad example.
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Post by veerman on Dec 27, 2020 21:00:16 GMT -6
The academies are the easy answer of doing more with less.... regardless of who chooses to do what.. They win against teams that have superior talent (is That not the OP question? who wins with lesser talent?) There are a lot of teams that have success with their talent, but not like the Academies.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 27, 2020 21:14:02 GMT -6
The academies are the easy answer of doing more with less.... regardless of who chooses to do what.. They win against teams that have superior talent (is That not the OP question? who wins with lesser talent?) There are a lot of teams that have success with their talent, but not like the Academies. But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc.
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Post by veerman on Dec 27, 2020 21:48:21 GMT -6
The academies are the easy answer of doing more with less.... regardless of who chooses to do what.. They win against teams that have superior talent (is That not the OP question? who wins with lesser talent?) There are a lot of teams that have success with their talent, but not like the Academies. But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc. Yes IMO they are. Their fast guys are not the size of other teams fast guys. Their strong guys are not the same size of other strong guys. They are usually out weighted by an average of 30-40 lbs across the fronts and sometimes even more. They may be some HS best players but that doesn’t mean they are equal to other HS teams best players. You can still be less talented than most, while being by far the best talent on your team. But again this is my opinion.
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Post by 44dlcoach on Dec 27, 2020 21:49:54 GMT -6
I know this is just one story from one pissant HS assistant coach, but two players in our senior class just signed, one at an academy and one at one of the group of 5 teams that's been mentioned in this thread. The better player is going to the academy.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 27, 2020 22:01:57 GMT -6
But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc. Yes IMO they are. Their fast guys are not the size of other teams fast guys. Their strong guys are not the same size of other strong guys. They are usually out weighted by an average of 30-40 lbs across the fronts and sometimes even more. They may be some HS best players but that doesn’t mean they are equal to other HS teams best players. You can still be less talented than most, while being by far the best talent on your team. But again this is my opinion. I know that is the story that is told. I am saying I don't know if it is accurate with regards to the wins those schools are getting. Again, we are not talking about Comparing West Point to Texas or Ohio State or Auburn. I would agree that those teams are playing with players who not only are objectively superior in the measurables, but are also going to be considered "better" players by those evaluating. I am not sure that necessarily holds true for many/most of the schools on the Academies schedules.
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Post by veerman on Dec 27, 2020 23:13:38 GMT -6
It’s all good, everyone has their opinions. This is like a “who’s the greatest” topic, there’s no real way to determine.
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Post by CS on Dec 28, 2020 4:47:51 GMT -6
The academies are the easy answer of doing more with less.... regardless of who chooses to do what.. They win against teams that have superior talent (is That not the OP question? who wins with lesser talent?) There are a lot of teams that have success with their talent, but not like the Academies. But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc. In the case of talent it’s probably closer to the teams they play in conference. They do have to deal with a lack of athletic scholarships and size requirements that other schools don’t have to deal with.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2020 5:09:42 GMT -6
But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc. In the case of talent it’s probably closer to the teams they play in conference. They do have to deal with a lack of athletic scholarships and size requirements that other schools don’t have to deal with. With regards to size requirements, I think that is more an individual's hardship than than an Academy one. Quoting a 2018 Philadelphia Inquirer article : "Navy’s O-line, for example, though one inch and 13 pounds below Division I norms, averages 6-3, 285 pounds." The difference between Navy and say Tulane is that a 6'3 Midshipmen has to be at 216 to (or 22% body fat) and still be able to pass the general fitness standards. Tulane's Lineman do not. My personal opinion is that one needs to remember that what separates the Top 20 and the rest of college football is the quality of "big boys". Absurdly large but mobile and athletic players are the most scarce recruits. When we are talking about Group of 5 schools, they aren't getting too many of those. So being undersized to less than stellar big men isn't necessarily as big a disadvantage as it first seems. Overall, I think the 3 pronged requirements for Military Academy admission/attendance (Academic, body size, military commitment) absolutely present an additional challenge to attracting the athletes. No doubts there. I am simply saying that I would not go as far as to automatically state that those athletes they attract are "the least" when compared to the teams they are competing with and beating regularly. I would say certainly that those athletes could be considered "the least" when compared to the top teams in country.
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Post by pitt1980 on Dec 28, 2020 8:20:48 GMT -6
The academies are the easy answer of doing more with less.... regardless of who chooses to do what.. They win against teams that have superior talent (is That not the OP question? who wins with lesser talent?) There are a lot of teams that have success with their talent, but not like the Academies. But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc.
Yeah, Army's recruiting pitch is different, but not inherently worse that say East Carolina's
The big negative is the service requirement gets in the way of (but doesn't totally exclude) playing after college
Is the East Carolina to the NFL pipeline a big selling point for East Carolina? Idk, I suspect if your good enough to get recruited by East Carolina it's certainly something you dream of and don't want to totally cut off
Army can sell a West Point degree will be a ticket into a lot of non-football worlds in a way that an East Carolina degree won't be, that's not a selling point for everyone, but I'm sure it is for lots of people
(I suspect a couple of hours of research checking cross offers on the recruiting sites could answer this debate pretty reasonably, without actually doing that research, I suspect Army and Navy do ok with the recruits they offer relative to East Carolina [obviously they're more restricted in the guys they can offer])
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2020 8:43:01 GMT -6
But do they have "lesser talent" than the teams they are beating? If the Cadets/Midshipmen/Zoomies were beating Florida, Oklahoma, USC, Wisconsin etc then yes I would say they are beating objectively better talent. But do Tulane, Temple, East Carolina, etc all have objectively better talent? San diego state, Wyoming, Nevada etc? The academies aren't playing with scrubs. They fast guys are fast, the strong guys are strong, they are all tough, many if not most were the best players on their teams in HS etc.
Yeah, Army's recruiting pitch is different, but not inherently worse that say East Carolina's
The big negative is the service requirement gets in the way of (but doesn't totally exclude) playing after college
Is the East Carolina to the NFL pipeline a big selling point for East Carolina? Idk, I suspect if your good enough to get recruited by East Carolina it's certainly something you dream of and don't want to totally cut off
Army can sell a West Point degree will be a ticket into a lot of non-football worlds in a way that an East Carolina degree won't be, that's not a selling point for everyone, but I'm sure it is for lots of people
(I suspect a couple of hours of research checking cross offers on the recruiting sites could answer this debate pretty reasonably, without actually doing that research, I suspect Army and Navy do ok with the recruits they offer relative to East Carolina [obviously they're more restricted in the guys they can offer])
I would imagine it is an interesting situation, as the academic requirements necessary for the Academies may very well indeed weed out those who refuse to acknowledge the statistical probabilities of making it to the NFL- PARTICULARLY if you are being recruited at an "ECU" level as opposed to an LSU, OSU,etc. level. Sidenote for emphasis and context- When I was coaching NCAA Div 1AA ball, we had upperclassmen who were BACK UPS whose life plan was still to "make it to the NFL". That is the mindset some of them have. It made me feel a bit like a failure as a mentor. I think the military service might be more of a deterrent for the sake of having to be in the military as opposed it keeping a player from the NFL.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2020 10:55:54 GMT -6
maybe LU is a bad example, but anyways I am done. I think perhaps you stating that the military academics are NOT examples because they could spend the Pentagon's bank roll and suspend the other requirements for admittance simply to win football games... is the bad example. I never said anything about spending this department or that department’s money or suspending this that or the other. Much less say take this from here to do this over here. I know federal budget has a lot of waste.Wasting a little bit, and literally a little, more on their athletics wouldn’t hurt as opposed to sending money to X so they can distribute it, waste and comeback for more.
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Post by coachd5085 on Dec 28, 2020 11:30:16 GMT -6
Could they attract 5 stars? If the 5 star is x,y, z probably. But could they do things to make the enrollment at an academy more appealing to potential recruits? Absolutely. Could they set up things to get not so attractive academic students? Yup. Could they pay to recruit the country? Absolutely. Could they pay for the coaching? Just silly to say they couldn’t. Umm.. Yes you did. Right here. You just stated that they could suspend academic requirements, military service requirements, fitness requirements etc. right here. You just said that they could utilize Pentagon funding that goes elsewhere to pay to recruit the country (they already do by the way.. ) Just stop. Stick to just posting x's and o's because when you try to discuss deeper topics you drown.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2020 12:55:54 GMT -6
Could they attract 5 stars? If the 5 star is x,y, z probably. But could they do things to make the enrollment at an academy more appealing to potential recruits? Absolutely. Could they set up things to get not so attractive academic students? Yup. Could they pay to recruit the country? Absolutely. Could they pay for the coaching? Just silly to say they couldn’t. Umm.. Yes you did. Right here. You just stated that they could suspend academic requirements, military service requirements, fitness requirements etc. right here. You just said that they could utilize Pentagon funding that goes elsewhere to pay to recruit the country (they already do by the way.. ) Just stop. Stick to just posting x's and o's because when you try to discuss deeper topics you drown. quote me?
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