|
Post by fadepattern on Jan 10, 2020 9:51:36 GMT -6
We have all heard that 7v7 is “not real football.” If that is the case, should we still be doing it?
I am thinking about eliminating 7v7 scrimmages in the summer and 7v7 periods in practice. I am beginning to think that it builds more poor habits than good habits for my QB. Our kid looks really good in 7v7 periods but IMO it did not translate to game situation. In 7v7 he gets the ball out on time and goes through his progression but I think the “visual noise” of a pass rush is really disruptive to him.
Instead of having a 7v7 period we would have a 11v11 pass/screen period. No blitzes but just a standard pass rush. We would still have a Pass Under Pressure (P.U.P.) period where we work against blitzes with no defensive backs.
Has anyone here ever completely eliminated 7v7? I would really appreciate getting to hear your opinions on this.
|
|
|
Post by bigmoot2 on Jan 10, 2020 10:11:09 GMT -6
We havent completely elimated it but we have reduced it quite a bit. Like OP says..our guys need more of the chaos and pressure that comes from a live pass rush.
Still use it early to teach concepts/routes, etc.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Jan 10, 2020 10:14:04 GMT -6
We have all heard that 7v7 is “not real football.” If that is the case, should we still be doing it? I am thinking about eliminating 7v7 scrimmages in the summer and 7v7 periods in practice. I am beginning to think that it builds more poor habits than good habits for my QB. Our kid looks really good in 7v7 periods but IMO it did not translate to game situation. In 7v7 he gets the ball out on time and goes through his progression but I think the “visual noise” of a pass rush is really disruptive to him. Instead of having a 7v7 period we would have a 11v11 pass/screen period. No blitzes but just a standard pass rush. We would still have a Pass Under Pressure (P.U.P.) period where we work against blitzes with no defensive backs. Has anyone here ever completely eliminated 7v7? I would really appreciate getting to hear your opinions on this. I think you are on the right track, but I definitely wouldn't eliminate from practice. I wouldn't do 7v7 though. I would have a controlled offensive pass period and a controlled defensive pass skell. Both of these periods could resemble 7v7, but aren't 7v7.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 10:26:22 GMT -6
Dont eliminate it, but put 4 potential rushers in front of him to cloud up lanes and put pressure on him to make step up in the pocket or roll out one way or the other to avoid it and throw? Makes it more game like?
|
|
|
Post by bjohnson on Jan 10, 2020 10:38:10 GMT -6
Beginning of the year we use routes on air only. As practice progresses we start utilizing 7 on 7. From there we progress to using kids with handshields to simulate a rush during our 7 on 7 time. Sometimes they come, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they make him step up, sometimes they make him scramble. During our team time we will have the scout team bring pressure about 90% of the time on all our passes.
|
|
|
Post by veerwego on Jan 10, 2020 10:47:56 GMT -6
Take 3-4 also rans and have them start a yard or so off the ball spread out like a rush. They put their hands straight up and walk toward the QB slowly to give him a distraction and to make him find throwing lanes. As previous poster mentioned, you can bring some or none if you want and make QB move in pocket or get out of it and throw on the run. This can also make kids practice their scramble drill. There may be a time and place for RVA or 7 on 7 in spring and summer, maybe one day a week in season, but you are correct that QBs need some sort of rush (or simulation of one) so that they are practicing something that is more game like during game weeks.
|
|
|
Post by pvogel on Jan 10, 2020 10:57:38 GMT -6
I wouldn't totally scrap it. I get that its frustrating at times and not always realistic. But it does help with getting REPS. All your WRs are running routes. Its a period where EVERY play is a pass. So it helps your passing game while the OL can use it for INDY (which your OL coach LOVES).
We do 20 mins a week. It is scripted and controlled. It is the primary concepts that we want to use that week against the look that they give us. One day is half field. It is just about all quick game since full field concepts aren't really worth it. 3 man combos against 4 defenders (Corner, Safety, OLB, Inside Backer). The 3rd route could be from the back. We also throw in an occasional RPO so the QB can make that read and we get mesh reps there too. ***This is how we get the best scout look as we make it a best vs best period instead of having our JV scout***
The other day is full field. So more deep and intermediate concepts. RBs are gone - they are working with OL at this time. Downside is the scout team is usually poor.
But both days we have some kind of simulated pressure. For the half field skelly stand up stuff is great since its mostly quick game. For the full field I like 1 rusher that the QB has to step up or skate to avoid.
Its just like teaching in the classroom. Part-Part-Whole. One bit at a time and then you put it all together. So I wouldn't scrap it.
|
|
|
Post by blb on Jan 10, 2020 11:59:00 GMT -6
One thing I learned about 7-on-7 last time I coached in college:
The first time our defense went against opponents' patterns in Skelly they weren't very good (full disclosure we had our offensive 1s servicing them half the time).
The second day it was hard for Scout Team to complete a pass - because now defense had seen the patterns.
Obviously doesn't mean they shut down opponents on Saturday but got to believe it was a lot better than if they hadn't done it at all or only once.
When I became a head HS coach again we did DEFENSIVE 7-on-7 twice a week (sometimes three times) for that reason.
|
|
|
Post by coachgreen05 on Jan 10, 2020 12:01:05 GMT -6
I structure my offensive practices for the most part like this:
7v7 like 10-12 reps REDZONE 7 on 7 (understanding how tight the field gets down there, shots from certain landmarks, etc)
(we do 7v7 more for reps, knowing what to do, seeing coverage, working on new wrinkles, making sure they understand signals, etc)
Team Pass we throw with ppl in his face along with Team periods
MON- Inside Run, PUP, 7v7 , Team TUE- Team Run (w/PA and RPOs) , Team Pass (w/ Screens), 7v7 (REDZONE), Team (REDZONE) WED-7v7 (REDZONE), Team (3rd Downs), Goalline, 2 Min
|
|
|
Post by mrjvi on Jan 10, 2020 12:05:13 GMT -6
I'd bring our kids to 7 on 7's if we only played defense.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Jan 10, 2020 12:23:25 GMT -6
We have all heard that 7v7 is “not real football.” If that is the case, should we still be doing it? I am thinking about eliminating 7v7 scrimmages in the summer and 7v7 periods in practice. I am beginning to think that it builds more poor habits than good habits for my QB. Our kid looks really good in 7v7 periods but IMO it did not translate to game situation. In 7v7 he gets the ball out on time and goes through his progression but I think the “visual noise” of a pass rush is really disruptive to him. Instead of having a 7v7 period we would have a 11v11 pass/screen period. No blitzes but just a standard pass rush. We would still have a Pass Under Pressure (P.U.P.) period where we work against blitzes with no defensive backs. Has anyone here ever completely eliminated 7v7? I would really appreciate getting to hear your opinions on this. I think you are on the right track, but I definitely wouldn't eliminate from practice. I wouldn't do 7v7 though. I would have a controlled offensive pass period and a controlled defensive pass skell. Both of these periods could resemble 7v7, but aren't 7v7.
Agreed, offensive and defensive pass skelly are important and they don't have to be a true 7v7 format. We like to change up the amount of time the QBs get in both situations to simulate pressure (or lack thereof, in defensive skelly). IMO, defensive pass skelly is the best drill for nailing down pass coverage and variations.
|
|
|
Post by ahall005 on Jan 10, 2020 12:34:04 GMT -6
Its week to week for us. If we are playing team that passes a lot we do more 7 on 7. IF we are playing a wing T team we don't do any 7 on 7.
I do not enjoy 7 on 7 and would prefer not do to do it ever.
We are a small team so what I like to do is half the D 7 on 7. On one side its varsity players vs varsity players and on the other its jv vs jv. We always have the Varsity side go then the jv. The side that isn't going gets lined up while they other side is running their play. When we started doing it like that I started to like 7 on 7 a little more.
|
|
|
Post by MICoach on Jan 10, 2020 13:27:35 GMT -6
We have gone to 11-on-11 "blitz pickup" passing session 1-2 days a week. I think we get better reps for everyone involved - the QB sees actual pressure, the OL sees better reps than in indy/group, screens can get sniffed out from DL, etc.
|
|
|
Post by StraightFlexin on Jan 10, 2020 13:37:57 GMT -6
I think if you work on "your stuff" to get better and not focus on winning the 7on7, you get better. I would tell my QB, I don't care if you take a sack or tuck the ball and run. I care about competitions on time and no INTS. From a defensive perspective, you can work on alignments and communication. I would always ask my kids to cover for 5 seconds. If they run around and throw up a ghetto moon ball after 8 seconds its a sack to me. You could also ask the other coach if you can offer your own kid a rush from a coach.
|
|
|
Post by bignose on Jan 10, 2020 16:39:37 GMT -6
When we ran the Double Wing, we looked at 7 on 7 as the place to get our defensive backs some work against what they might see from our opponents and the chance to evaluate them.
I had us run some routes from the double tight formation and one of the wags wanted to know if we were gonna run passes from a tight punt formation. lol
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Jan 10, 2020 20:14:36 GMT -6
We have all heard that 7v7 is “not real football.” If that is the case, should we still be doing it? I think that the saying here is referring to competitions with augmented rules (3 downs to get 15 yards etc.) where teams are playing essentially a different sport, as opposed to a drill segment used in practice to focus on certain skills displayed in the overall game. If your reason for wanting to not utilize it in practice is that it isn't "real" or that it has elements that aren't 100% true to the game on Friday night (like no pass rush) then logically can't that extend to almost anything done in a practice that isn't a full 11 v 11 live scrimmage?
|
|
|
Post by bluboy on Jan 11, 2020 8:03:36 GMT -6
Its week to week for us. If we are playing team that passes a lot we do more 7 on 7. If we are playing a "ground and pound" team we don't do much if any 7 on 7. We do 7on7 3 days a week. Our focus during this period is covering the right man/zone. It's a drill/teach period and not a competition period. Monday is a best vs best 7on7. The offense gets the first perimeter players and runs our passes versus our defense. We do this 'for about 8 minutes, then flip so the defense has the best perimeter players, but the offensen still runs our passes. Tuesday is a regular 7on7 with the scout team running the opponent's offense. We start this period by having the offense run the patterns and NOT THROWING the ball. About halfway through this period we will throw ball. Wednesday's 7on7 is with the ball thrown.
|
|
|
Post by KYCoach2331 on Jan 11, 2020 8:12:47 GMT -6
I like it more for defense than offense (and we're a spread/air raid team).
There's just some things our scout team can't simulate well in full team. Our DL has been excellent the past two years and our scout OL can't pass pro vs them.
7 on 7 allows for us to take that element away, and allows us to see more patterns and actually get to make plays on the ball/receiver.
|
|
|
Post by fantom on Jan 11, 2020 8:40:48 GMT -6
I like it more for defense than offense (and we're a spread/air raid team). There's just some things our scout team can't simulate well in full team. Our DL has been excellent the past two years and our scout OL can't pass pro vs them. 7 on 7 allows for us to take that element away, and allows us to see more patterns and actually get to make plays on the ball/receiver. We do team pass sometimes and when it's for defense there are strict rules foe pass rushers. Not only is the QB not live but they have to stay an arms length away. Don't want our QB breaking his hand on a helmet. They can bat balls down but can't hit the QB.
|
|
|
Post by KYCoach2331 on Jan 11, 2020 9:09:58 GMT -6
I like it more for defense than offense (and we're a spread/air raid team). There's just some things our scout team can't simulate well in full team. Our DL has been excellent the past two years and our scout OL can't pass pro vs them. 7 on 7 allows for us to take that element away, and allows us to see more patterns and actually get to make plays on the ball/receiver. We do team pass sometimes and when it's for defense there are strict rules foe pass rushers. Not only is the QB not live but they have to stay an arms length away. Don't want our QB breaking his hand on a helmet. They can bat balls down but can't hit the QB. Yeah our scout QB isn't live either. Just seems like the throw is either rushed or isn't as high of quality even though he knows he isn't going to get touched. Definitely still have to have passes during team, I'm just referring to why I wouldn't want to drop it from our defensive schedule.
|
|
|
Post by Coach Vint on Jan 11, 2020 15:05:24 GMT -6
I used to not like 7-on-7. I hated it. Now I love it. Our QB's can focus on their feet and eyes without being disrupted by a defender. We will have guys simulate a rush at times, so our QB has to work throwing lanes, but we rarely do it. I really want out 7-on-7 period to be an eye and feet period for our QB. During 7-on-7 our OL and DL are working 1-on-1 and 3-on-3 pass rush. They also work a 1-on-1 base blocking period.
We also do a pass under pressure period twice a week that is scripted. We also have a team pass period that is scripted. We have a team 3rd down and team goal line pass period each week.
What I really like for our pass game and working with our QB reads and WR route adjustments is Half-line Pass. It is 7-on-7, but working one side of the field. It is 4-on-3 or 3-on-2. We go one side, then the other. We work versus each look our opponent will give us.
I will be speaking at the Glazier Chicago in February on our pass game and some ways we teach thing. I am actually looking forward to 7-on-7 this spring and summer as we will work all of our pass concepts. I know the LB's cheat and play at 8 yards, and guys don't take read steps, but it gives us a chance to get really good at what we want to do in the pass game when people know we are going to throw.
With that said we will mix in an RPO or two reading the safety during 7-on-7.
|
|
|
Post by kcbazooka on Jan 11, 2020 16:03:10 GMT -6
Might not want to “hate” 7-on-7. It might be high school football in twenty years...
|
|
|
Post by bignose on Jan 11, 2020 16:15:46 GMT -6
Might not want to “hate” 7-on-7. It might be high school football in twenty years... Coach, I'm 68 years old. I've got a feeling that in 20 years, I'm not gonna give a rat's butt about High School football. Lol BTW, while I can't say I hate 7-on-7, I sure don't like it much, especially when it starts taking priority over other football related skills.
|
|
|
Post by pvogel on Jan 12, 2020 8:44:18 GMT -6
We have gone to 11-on-11 "blitz pickup" passing session 1-2 days a week. I think we get better reps for everyone involved - the QB sees actual pressure, the OL sees better reps than in indy/group, screens can get sniffed out from DL, etc. Except the WRs... If you want great live work for the OL/RBs/QB in blitz pickup then it is pretty easy to do it in a blitz pickup period while the WRs do Indy. But you will get less reps for them by going full team pass. I get the logic behind it but I just believe we get better mileage splitting it like this: Tuesday: - 1/2 field skelly, OL Indy - and then a blitz pickup session with OL/RBs/QB. Someone runs a route, QB steps up in pocket and stands tall until the whistle and then throws the route. Wednesday: - Full Field Skelly, with OL/RBs doing BPU during this time
|
|
|
Post by morris on Jan 13, 2020 5:33:29 GMT -6
Someone on here years back said they ran defense 7 on 7 without throwing the ball. They were just looking for the defense to cover. They could get through a lot of reps in a short period of time and didn’t waste time chasing dropped passes.
|
|
|
Post by silkyice on Jan 13, 2020 7:54:55 GMT -6
Someone on here years back said they ran defense 7 on 7 without throwing the ball. They were just looking for the defense to cover. They could get through a lot of reps in a short period of time and didn’t waste time chasing dropped passes. That was me. We did that when cover 2 was our base and 90% of what we ran. At a new school this year and ended up cover 0 most of the time. So we had to throw the ball this year at break on the ball.
|
|
|
Post by fadepattern on Jan 13, 2020 10:02:31 GMT -6
Thanks for all the great ideas gentlemen! Y'all really gave us a lot of things to think about.
|
|
|
Post by coachplaa on Jan 13, 2020 10:39:22 GMT -6
We started doing something we stole from a college practice called "Rush Skelly."
Its basically 7v7 with pass pro vs pass rush, but its not 11 on 11.
The offense can run their entire dropback game.
All 5 O-linemen are out there vs our D-Line but our DL coach (from behind the QB) points at 1 D-Lineman to live rush. The rest of the D-Lineman must still get in a stance and work on their getoff but only go 2-steps to engage the OL.
The OL all think their guy is live and must pass set accordingly, and they don't stop unless the guy in front of them stops.
We do this on Mondays..... on Tuesdays the PassPro/Pass Rush is 3 on 2- we work Left side and then Right side. This gives the DL coach a chance to work loops and stunts and equally allows our OL coach to work on protecting vs that.
Its a great way to manage live reps and it makes our QB uneasy and way more realistic.
|
|
|
Post by cwaltsmith on Jan 13, 2020 10:58:47 GMT -6
I totally see what OP is saying... last year we looked really good in 7 v 7 in june and july... However, our QB is on the short side and our OLINE wasnt great. so when we went live it wasnt even close to the same as 7 v 7. I do think it has its place, but we are at the very least gonna have 4 guys stand in front of him during all 7 v 7
|
|
|
Post by MICoach on Jan 13, 2020 12:06:53 GMT -6
We have gone to 11-on-11 "blitz pickup" passing session 1-2 days a week. I think we get better reps for everyone involved - the QB sees actual pressure, the OL sees better reps than in indy/group, screens can get sniffed out from DL, etc. Except the WRs... If you want great live work for the OL/RBs/QB in blitz pickup then it is pretty easy to do it in a blitz pickup period while the WRs do Indy. But you will get less reps for them by going full team pass. I get the logic behind it but I just believe we get better mileage splitting it like this: Tuesday: - 1/2 field skelly, OL Indy - and then a blitz pickup session with OL/RBs/QB. Someone runs a route, QB steps up in pocket and stands tall until the whistle and then throws the route. Wednesday: - Full Field Skelly, with OL/RBs doing BPU during this time Our schedule is actually pretty similar to yours. Monday - skill has skelly, OL indy Tuesday - skill has skelly, OL indy Wednesday - WR/QB routes on air, OL/RB blitz pick up, followed by a full team BPU/Skelly Thursday - Just full team BPU/Skelly I fight to get more OL/RB group time *with the QB* but hard to fit in when we already have Inside Run and someone needs to throw passes for routes on air. Occasionally the RB coach and I will combine for our start of practice Indy too.
|
|