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Post by silkyice on Jan 1, 2020 18:41:02 GMT -6
One thing I am not opposed to doing and have done in the past, and believe it or not, has some value to it, is determine whether to condition or not based on the quality of practice. TBH, I've even asked kids what they think. To eval themselves. Haven't done it in a long time but when I did I almost always got an accurate response. Usually they were in agreement w/ coaches. At least then they see it as "yes we earned the break or no, we didn't". It also has helped me as a coach to really grow my respect for the kids when they are taking responsibility for a poor practice. You believe they are mature enough to self evaluate and take responsibility, but you don't think they would be able to adopt a "winner's sprint..we like to work" as opposed to "running is for losers" mindset? I am just looking at the mindset I believe Harbaugh was trying to instill. Obviously it has not been as successful as he wants (example, see my thread on their celebration of a win vs what proved to be a relatively poor Army team) I am just telling you. Every single fat boy (the guys who win - o line and d line) will hate you if you make them run for whoopin someone’s ass. It might work once with a few fat boys. Maybe. Doubt it. Probably won’t. But that is it. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2020 18:47:20 GMT -6
You believe they are mature enough to self evaluate and take responsibility, but you don't think they would be able to adopt a "winner's sprint..we like to work" as opposed to "running is for losers" mindset? I am just looking at the mindset I believe Harbaugh was trying to instill. Obviously it has not been as successful as he wants (example, see my thread on their celebration of a win vs what proved to be a relatively poor Army team) I am just telling you. Every single fat boy (the guys who win - o line and d line) will hate you if you make them run for whoopin someone’s ass. It might work once with a few fat boys. Maybe. Doubt it. Probably won’t. But that is it. Your wording is the issue. "Make" that is the entire idea. Did you "make" that kid go squat after winning the basketball title? As long as it is looked at as being made to run .. then yes, the idea is failing. If it gets to a point where it is looked at like a reward, a victory lap...then I would suggest you are wrong. Just my perspective. I use this with my elementary PE class all the time, so as to avoid instilling that exercises are punishment to 7 and 8 year olds. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 1, 2020 19:53:39 GMT -6
I am just telling you. Every single fat boy (the guys who win - o line and d line) will hate you if you make them run for whoopin someone’s ass. It might work once with a few fat boys. Maybe. Doubt it. Probably won’t. But that is it. Your wording is the issue. "Make" that is the entire idea. Did you "make" that kid go squat after winning the basketball title? As long as it is looked at as being made to run .. then yes, the idea is failing. If it gets to a point where it is looked at like a reward, a victory lap...then I would suggest you are wrong. Just my perspective. I use this with my elementary PE class all the time, so as to avoid instilling that exercises are punishment to 7 and 8 year olds. I understand. But the winner wins and he has to run. How is that not “making” him run? I have a kid that started every game in college on the OL. Great kid. High ACT. Already making over $100,000. Would do what you asked but also hated stupid stuff. He might have quit over this. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2020 20:03:46 GMT -6
Your wording is the issue. "Make" that is the entire idea. Did you "make" that kid go squat after winning the basketball title? As long as it is looked at as being made to run .. then yes, the idea is failing. If it gets to a point where it is looked at like a reward, a victory lap...then I would suggest you are wrong. Just my perspective. I use this with my elementary PE class all the time, so as to avoid instilling that exercises are punishment to 7 and 8 year olds. I understand. But the winner wins and he has to run. How is that not “making” him run? I have a kid that started every game in college on the OL. Great kid. High ACT. Already making over $100,000. Would do what you asked but also hated stupid stuff. He might have quit over this. GETS to ... not has to. That is the mindset. It is just a physical trophy. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 1, 2020 20:30:43 GMT -6
I understand. But the winner wins and he has to run. How is that not “making” him run? I have a kid that started every game in college on the OL. Great kid. High ACT. Already making over $100,000. Would do what you asked but also hated stupid stuff. He might have quit over this. GETS to ... not has to. That is the mindset. It is just a physical trophy. I can not believe I am still responding on this one. Hahahahaha But that is just semantics. The kid ain’t stupid. The guy that gets convicted of murder gets to have a lethal injection. He doesn’t have to. I do get it. It is all how you sell it. But am not going to be able to sell that more than once to 300 pound 17 year old boys. |
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Post by CS on Jan 1, 2020 20:34:41 GMT -6
I understand. But the winner wins and he has to run. How is that not “making” him run? I have a kid that started every game in college on the OL. Great kid. High ACT. Already making over $100,000. Would do what you asked but also hated stupid stuff. He might have quit over this. GETS to ... not has to. That is the mindset. It is just a physical trophy. Ok. So I win and I “decide” I don’t want my victory sprint. Then I get labeled a quitter,loser,lazy ass. Not buying into the culture etc etc You can spin it how you want to the little tykes in your class because they are young enough to not be able to smell the bull$hit. The logic is fuking stupid but the intention is good |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2020 20:38:29 GMT -6
GETS to ... not has to. That is the mindset. It is just a physical trophy. I can not believe I am still responding on this one. Hahahahaha But that is just semantics. The kid ain’t stupid. The guy that gets convicted of murder gets to have a lethal injection. He doesn’t have to. I do get it. It is all how you sell it. But am not going to be able to sell that more than once to 300 pound 17 year old boys. No, it isn't really a semantic thing. The murder example will most likely never view it as a reward or trophy. The entire idea is to embrace a work is good mindset. It is simply a mindset. Why is running one sprint viewed as such a torture or punishment? That is the mindset that is trying to be changed. As I said, I use it.. it is a warm up type game. We play "rock paper scissorsize" Winner gets to do 5 reps of an exercise, loser only gets to do 3. |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2020 20:42:11 GMT -6
GETS to ... not has to. That is the mindset. It is just a physical trophy. Ok. So I win and I “decide” I don’t want my victory sprint. Then I get labeled a quitter,loser,lazy ass. Not buying into the culture etc etc You can spin it how you want to the little tykes in your class because they are young enough to not be able to smell the bull$hit. The logic is fuking stupid but the intention is good Again, why is it such a punishment to maybe run one sprint? Now, if you are talking about a full on conditioning thing..sure I would agree with that. Hell, players probably run further to go celebrate a ridiculous endzone dance, or after they make a big play. |
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Post by CS on Jan 1, 2020 20:47:15 GMT -6
Ok. So I win and I “decide” I don’t want my victory sprint. Then I get labeled a quitter,loser,lazy ass. Not buying into the culture etc etc You can spin it how you want to the little tykes in your class because they are young enough to not be able to smell the bull$hit. The logic is fuking stupid but the intention is good Again, why is it such a punishment to maybe run one sprint? Now, if you are talking about a full on conditioning thing..sure I would agree with that. Hell, players probably run further to go celebrate a ridiculous endzone dance, or after they make a big play. It is conditioning. It’s not just one sprint. And honestly it’s still dumb if it’s one sprint. I’m not saying that it’s a big deal to run one sprint but I don’t agree with it |
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Post by coachd5085 on Jan 1, 2020 20:51:57 GMT -6
Again, why is it such a punishment to maybe run one sprint? Now, if you are talking about a full on conditioning thing..sure I would agree with that. Hell, players probably run further to go celebrate a ridiculous endzone dance, or after they make a big play. It is conditioning. It’s not just one sprint. And honestly it’s still dumb if it’s one sprint. I’m not saying that it’s a big deal to run one sprint but I don’t agree with it I have said several times in this thread, the idea of full on conditioning (meaning running until the point of discomfort) seems counter productive to the idea. Getting a chance to run a "victory sprint" and with it, begin instilling the idea that a sprint can be good, seems harmless. Some people even sprint as their full time sport  Some run miles! I suppose it can be stated that doing this has not gotten UM to compete at the level that Harbaugh desires. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 1, 2020 20:58:01 GMT -6
I can not believe I am still responding on this one. Hahahahaha But that is just semantics. The kid ain’t stupid. The guy that gets convicted of murder gets to have a lethal injection. He doesn’t have to. I do get it. It is all how you sell it. But am not going to be able to sell that more than once to 300 pound 17 year old boys. No, it isn't really a semantic thing. The murder example will most likely never view it as a reward or trophy. The entire idea is to embrace a work is good mindset. It is simply a mindset. Why is running one sprint viewed as such a torture or punishment? That is the mindset that is trying to be changed. As I said, I use it.. it is a warm up type game. We play "rock paper scissorsize" Winner gets to do 5 reps of an exercise, loser only gets to do 3. There is no way as a coach to be consistent on this issue. Everyone is doing the weight training, plyo's, speed trianing, conditioning, etc. So everyone "gets" to train. If you are an intelligent coach, you have convinced your team that you are doing the correct amount. So any extra is just that, extra. Besides that, I am sure that this type of running or whatever is punishment type running. A gasser or or updowns pushups or something like that. Nothing that is going to really make you stronger or faster or heck, even in better shape, it is just going to make you more tired. If not, if it really will make you better, then why isn't the whole team doing it and a lot of it and every day? Another point about being consistent is what do you when the whole team is messing up during team time? So the first offense messes up during team offense, do you make the scout team go run a gasser or do 10 updowns? No, you punish the first offense by doing a gasser or updowns or pushups or whatever. So there is no way to be consistent with your team. And kids aren't stupid and they HATE being treated as stupid. Sure your idiot gung ho kids might think it is cool. But after a while what do you think the conversation is going to be like in the locker room after day 10 of summer practice when it is a 2-a-day and 105 heat index? Once - fine, cool, whatever. I bet the Michigan kids think it is stupid. |
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Post by silkyice on Jan 1, 2020 21:04:25 GMT -6
No, it isn't really a semantic thing. The murder example will most likely never view it as a reward or trophy. The entire idea is to embrace a work is good mindset. It is simply a mindset. Why is running one sprint viewed as such a torture or punishment? That is the mindset that is trying to be changed. As I said, I use it.. it is a warm up type game. We play "rock paper scissorsize" Winner gets to do 5 reps of an exercise, loser only gets to do 3. There is no way as a coach to be consistent on this issue. Everyone is doing the weight training, plyo's, speed trianing, conditioning, etc. So everyone "gets" to train. If you are an intelligent coach, you have convinced your team that you are doing the correct amount. So any extra is just that, extra. Besides that, I am sure that this type of running or whatever is punishment type running. A gasser or or updowns pushups or something like that. Nothing that is going to really make you stronger or faster or heck, even in better shape, it is just going to make you more tired. If not, if it really will make you better, then why isn't the whole team doing it and a lot of it and every day? Another point about being consistent is what do you when the whole team is messing up during team time? So the first offense messes up during team offense, do you make the scout team go run a gasser or do 10 updowns? No, you punish the first offense by doing a gasser or updowns or pushups or whatever. So there is no way to be consistent with your team. And kids aren't stupid and they HATE being treated as stupid. Sure your idiot gung ho kids might think it is cool. But after a while what do you think the conversation is going to be like in the locker room after day 10 of summer practice when it is a 2-a-day and 105 heat index? Once - fine, cool, whatever. I bet the Michigan kids think it is stupid. One more thing, what happens when you beat my ass and you "get" to run a gasser. What happens if I run that gasser anyways? Is the coaching staff going to punish me? How? By making me run a gasser? Hahahahaha So you are mister cool hip guru advanced coach (not you, JH). So everything you do has to be different and you have all the answers on how to make kids compete. Surely you can think of something better than making the winners run. Just let the winners get the popsicles. Or get the popsicles firsts. Or be the first in line at the dinner table. I could brain storm for 5 minutes and come up with something better than the winners "get" to do the gassers. |
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Post by s73 on Jan 1, 2020 21:16:09 GMT -6
One thing I am not opposed to doing and have done in the past, and believe it or not, has some value to it, is determine whether to condition or not based on the quality of practice. TBH, I've even asked kids what they think. To eval themselves. Haven't done it in a long time but when I did I almost always got an accurate response. Usually they were in agreement w/ coaches. At least then they see it as "yes we earned the break or no, we didn't". It also has helped me as a coach to really grow my respect for the kids when they are taking responsibility for a poor practice. You believe they are mature enough to self evaluate and take responsibility, but you don't think they would be able to adopt a "winner's sprint..we like to work" as opposed to "running is for losers" mindset? I am just looking at the mindset I believe Harbaugh was trying to instill. Obviously it has not been as successful as he wants (example, see my thread on their celebration of a win vs what proved to be a relatively poor Army team) Yep. I do. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2020 22:01:58 GMT -6
I normally do not subscribe to the its a different game. We have kids who are sleeping in cars, who's parent will sell their kids stuff to get high.
Kids view running conditioning as punishment. Most of them, a scholarship isnt realistic. A lot of them are barely hanging on to life much less academically.
UM and OSU have kids at the bottom of their roster who have a chance to be doctors, lawyers, professors, and at least a cup of coffee in the nfl. Its a completely different universe with completely different type human being on all levels.
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Post by Coach Vint on Jan 2, 2020 1:23:15 GMT -6
The best way to develop competitiveness is to have kids compete. We use off-season to create competition with winners and losers. We have 1-on-1 competitions, small group competitions, and larger group competitions. We also put them in situations where we build physical and mental toughness. I am at one of the highest poverty schools in Texas. If you take a kid home 5 times you won’t take him to the same place twice. We have great kids, but they are surrounded by failure. Once something gets hard, they quit. We spend a great deal of our time building their threshold for discomfort. And it really isn’t just about football. They will need these skills to be successful in life.
One of the best things we do to teach them how to pay attention to detail, be be accountable to teammates, and respond to adversity is calling them out in the weight room and punishing the team for one guys mistake. If a guy misses a rep, has the wrong weight, racks the weight early, etc, we blow the whistle and they all get in the push-up position. The coach who blew the whistle calls them out for what they did. We do 1-4 push-ups then say feet, and they are back up and onto the next set. This has been huge for us building mental toughness. We explain that if one guy is offsides, the whole team gets punished. I’d one guy lines up wrong, he hurts not only himself, but he hurts the entire team. We had less procedural issues and busts on the field than we have ever had. We also had kids that responded to adversity. The tougher things got, the more they came together.
When we have competitions we reward winners. We don’t punish winners. And if a guy gives up during the competition he goes again. And again. Until he learns to compete. Or quits.
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Post by funkfriss on Jan 21, 2020 9:57:45 GMT -6
The best way to develop competitiveness is to have kids compete. We use off-season to create competition with winners and losers. We have 1-on-1 competitions, small group competitions, and larger group competitions. We also put them in situations where we build physical and mental toughness. I am at one of the highest poverty schools in Texas. If you take a kid home 5 times you won’t take him to the same place twice. We have great kids, but they are surrounded by failure. Once something gets hard, they quit. We spend a great deal of our time building their threshold for discomfort. And it really isn’t just about football. They will need these skills to be successful in life. One of the best things we do to teach them how to pay attention to detail, be be accountable to teammates, and respond to adversity is calling them out in the weight room and punishing the team for one guys mistake. If a guy misses a rep, has the wrong weight, racks the weight early, etc, we blow the whistle and they all get in the push-up position. The coach who blew the whistle calls them out for what they did. We do 1-4 push-ups then say feet, and they are back up and onto the next set. This has been huge for us building mental toughness. We explain that if one guy is offsides, the whole team gets punished. I’d one guy lines up wrong, he hurts not only himself, but he hurts the entire team. We had less procedural issues and busts on the field than we have ever had. We also had kids that responded to adversity. The tougher things got, the more they came together. When we have competitions we reward winners. We don’t punish winners. And if a guy gives up during the competition he goes again. And again. Until he learns to compete. Or quits. FULL DISCLOSURE: IF YOU HAVE A TEAM OF @ss KICKING DUDES DO NOT READ.....OH AND CONGRATULATIONS A lot of this ^^^. I like the idea of team "punishment" for one kid's action, but you have to be careful. First, we never punish for mistakes. Those happen to everybody in all situations in life and are learning experiences. We punish for lack of effort, focus, or attention to detail. As mentioned, not doing the proper weight, skipping a rep, and dogging a drill are all good examples. One caveat to this, however, is the same kid doing it over and over again. After the third time or so you need to pull the kid aside and ask him if he really is here for his team because his actions don't demonstrate that. Usually it doesn't get to that point, but when it does, 99% of the time the kid will quit which is fine by me. I can handle kids screwing up, but I can't handle kids screwing their teammates (One of my most used quotes). One other thought on competition. You have to create situations in which a) the competition is winnable, and b) where winning the competition produces enjoyment. If you haven't noticed, society caters to easy, comfort, and lethargy. Hell, I get pissed at my own kids all the time because even their video games are too easy to beat. You know how many f@ck*^g times I had to play Mario Brothers to beat the entire thing?!? You got three lives and then you had to start over FROM THE BEGINNING. No save point, no cheat code, no infinite respawns. Now my kids will beat a game in one day. Sorry for the mini-rant, but the point is that kids will not continue to compete and try hard if there is no chance for them to succeed and/or there is no enjoyment. There are too many other things in their daily lives that can give them enjoyment/pleasure/rewards faster and more easily. So it is your job as a coach to make sure these parameters are met in practices. Keep in mind, you will never turn these types of kids into full-on @ss kickers. However, they can become serviceable and help the team. |
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Post by leaddraw on Jan 31, 2020 13:14:02 GMT -6
Every time you turn on a college game with a new coach, that is all they talk about. If you have to explain how YOU teach your team how to compete, how do you answer? Specifics if possible, not the generic “we compete in everything we do.” They just said on the Louisville game that when the current staff got there, the DBs did not know how to cover, how to compete. With the old staff, everything they did in practice, the DBs had to let the WRs catch the ball. Great topic but I think what’s missing Here and what I’m more passionate about is how many kids lack the mental discipline to compete at their best ability. Even worse how many coaches don’t know how to coach mental toughness and the mental discipline to see their hard work or competitive moment through to the end or it’s best potential. The previous post above hits the nail on the head on a lot of points about the why and even how to create better execution through better mental reps of success - I totally believe success in practice through proper execution is way more important than competition in practice. Seeing the success in practice helps them see it in a game before it happens. What might be a better thread or discussion or even training is how to mentally train athletes to not mentally sabotage or defeat themselves despite their physical abilities. I even see college coaches so untrained in this area. No one is born with mental toughness or mental discipline. They just aren’t. The ones that have it learned it in some form or another. Teams that lack a ton of talent have beaten many teams with it and did it mostly through their own mental convictions. Sure a few other things like physical toughness and strength helps build that mental toughness and even stamina in the competition but the mind gives up so easily no matter what your skills or abilities are. Train that and you are really coaching something. Our kids, employees, society are missing the mental discipline to see things through, to not give up despite its difficulty, and to stop relying on self gratification as a measurement of progress. Help me understand the best methods to coach our kids to be the Michael Jordan’s and Kobe Bryant's despite’s the odds and pressure put against them. There have been many as physically and skillfully talented as MJ & Kobe - some even more but those two had the IT. The mental game. So did Tiger at one point & Phil Mickelson too. I think that’s where most coaches should be focusing their coaching on and that can be done in the same drills they do every day. |
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Some run miles! 
