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Post by fballcoachg on Jan 1, 2020 22:58:16 GMT -6
I’ve read and investigated this quite a few times. There are some issues I have, the first two are just personal gripes that have nothing to do with the hypothetical.
First being the presentation of the material. It’s hard at times to get past the way Holler presents himself and his case. I know there is quality there but it’s almost like the OLP guys that can’t even fathom there’s another way to do it or that different styles may work. Hollers ego and condescending tone is impressively asinine at times. He’s also neglecting how much MOST have already changed the way they operate...how many of us don’t do 2 a days anymore? All of us limit contact.
Second, I have a hard time modeling anything we do after most track programs I’ve seen. Maybe it’s the football coach ego but they are insanely inefficient at track and it’s such an individualistic sport. Maybe I’ve only been around bad programs but my god it’s a tremendous amount of standing around and socializing.
The final two and most practical being what do we do on the light day? I’m not giving our program off (we would have 3 days of practice a week with one extremely shortened, I’m not good enough to make that work, plus (and dog sh!t rationalization here) you give kids a day off during the week and you don’t win every game, you’re canned, so how is that structured and if it’s a walk through, how do you engage all the backups?
How do you get enough reps especially if your guys play both ways? We are already a shorter practice team so I’m looking at a schedule right now to see what we’d cut.
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Post by kylem56 on Jan 2, 2020 20:09:13 GMT -6
I’ve read and investigated this quite a few times. There are some issues I have, the first two are just personal gripes that have nothing to do with the hypothetical. First being the presentation of the material. It’s hard at times to get past the way Holler presents himself and his case. I know there is quality there but it’s almost like the OLP guys that can’t even fathom there’s another way to do it or that different styles may work. Hollers ego and condescending tone is impressively asinine at times. He’s also neglecting how much MOST have already changed the way they operate...how many of us don’t do 2 a days anymore? All of us limit contact. Second, I have a hard time modeling anything we do after most track programs I’ve seen. Maybe it’s the football coach ego but they are insanely inefficient at track and it’s such an individualistic sport. Maybe I’ve only been around bad programs but my god it’s a tremendous amount of standing around and socializing. The final two and most practical being what do we do on the light day? I’m not giving our program off (we would have 3 days of practice a week with one extremely shortened, I’m not good enough to make that work, plus (and dog sh!t rationalization here) you give kids a day off during the week and you don’t win every game, you’re canned, so how is that structured and if it’s a walk through, how do you engage all the backups? How do you get enough reps especially if your guys play both ways? We are already a shorter practice team so I’m looking at a schedule right now to see what we’d cut. Coach those are all fair points and questions I have as well. Would you mind sharing how your "shorter practices" look? Again I am by no means an expert in all of this, I am still gathering as much research as I can but it appears to me that the backups take the majority of the reps on Thursday but dont quote me on that. I have noticed many of these coaches are also Head track coaches. For the sake of discussion, none of them discuss their success in track but like you said, it is much more individualistic. You also have a good point with two way players, shorter reps and if you are going by their philosophy of rest, how do you get those players adequate rest if they are going both ways. I know in one presentation, one of the coaches (I believe it was Dixon) said he actually had his staff compile a "crazy" 22 player / 1 way depth chart. I don't know if they ended up using it or not. Would really be interested in seeing yours or anyone else who considers to do a "shorter" practice style than others. I am trying to wrap my head around the S.B.P./sprint days/non sprint days/rest theory and a couple of the coaches on here have done a great job explaining what they do which has already been a help. The challenge for me is still questions like you have said and putting together a mock practice plan tying it all together. |
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Post by morris on Jan 3, 2020 6:21:59 GMT -6
How is everyone defining in shape for two way players? From the articles and such I believe their stance that my guy might be tired but he’s still faster. I understand the POV but how much truth there is to it I don’t know.
One of the things I wonder about is back in the day did players trick coaches into believing things worked. A lot of us I’m sure ran those sprints at the end of practice. 40-53 yards or whatever. You ended up running 10 or more a lot of times. Maybe the first few practices it was less reps and then they built them up. Well as players everyone knows how fast they are compared to their teammates. So you knew where you should finish. You also always had a player or two that finished those sprints ahead of people that in a race they would lose to. The team ends up running those sprints at about 75-80%. The coaches want all out sprints but the players are in fact running tempo runs. Tempo runs are a great way to build up endurance but not speed. The players kind of truck the staff in believing all these gassers get you into shape to play when the players are doing something different. Now I obviously have no proof of this past coaching and watching players when I was on staffs that ran gassers.
KY was kind of ground zero for the Air Raid stuff. When Mumme got here he talked about how little hitting they did and they didn’t do the typical running. It sounded crazy then but now it’s kind of the norm. HS around here started adopting those ideas pretty early (not that KY is a hot bed of talent).
The crazy 22 thing isn’t the worse idea in the world. One template I’ve seen is the offense gets the QB, RB and a WR that only goes one way. Now of course they can play some defense but the idea is for them to play little to none. The defense gets the next 11 guys that can run and tackle. You take the guys that are too slow to play defense and they just play OL. You still cross train some guys here and there but that’s the starting point. That gives you 8 on offense that pretty much only go one way and another 8 or so on defense that mainly go one way or that are rotated.
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Post by groundchuck on Jan 3, 2020 10:33:31 GMT -6
As with a lot of things the truth is somewhere in the middle.
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Post by Victor on Jan 5, 2020 8:08:27 GMT -6
Non sprint days isnt only indy stuff, anything that isnt longer than 5 seconds. For me the major point is the linemen.
I've bought the coach from the first post clinic about it. It is really interesting, explains a lot, still some doubts, but help to get a light. If anyone wanna trade it, let me know.
Also, he plays wing-t, dtdw, so that helps with the one platoon stuff...
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Post by Victor on Jan 5, 2020 8:11:07 GMT -6
As with a lot of things the truth is somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, you cant go full sprint twice in a row, u need to teach the mechanics of sprinting and the whole goal is to develop the speed reserve and properly energetic system. If you get one Pavel Tatsouline books that he speaks on the subject, you could adapt and find a middle ground also with the weight room work |
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Post by morris on Jan 5, 2020 17:20:40 GMT -6
As with a lot of things the truth is somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, you cant go full sprint twice in a row, u need to teach the mechanics of sprinting and the whole goal is to develop the speed reserve and properly energetic system. If you get one Pavel Tatsouline books that he speaks on the subject, you could adapt and find a middle ground also with the weight room work Do you happen to remember which book that is? I believe he has one on tactical strength so I would guess it’s that one. I don’t think it’s in the one I have. |
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Post by Victor on Jan 5, 2020 17:49:53 GMT -6
One thing is for sure, you cant go full sprint twice in a row, u need to teach the mechanics of sprinting and the whole goal is to develop the speed reserve and properly energetic system. If you get one Pavel Tatsouline books that he speaks on the subject, you could adapt and find a middle ground also with the weight room work Do you happen to remember which book that is? I believe he has one on tactical strength so I would guess it’s that one. I don’t think it’s in the one I have. The quick and the dead |
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 5, 2020 18:10:40 GMT -6
I've adapted Barry Ross' sprint training philosophy to football to a large degree. I also coach track so we really use even more of his philosophy. Unfortunately as 1 poster said, it looks like we aren't doing too much work. In short, I time their sprints (20's -80's-1 distance each day) and each kid goes until his time drops too much. Not below @ 3%. BUT they rest 5 minutes between each sprint and we rarely get to 10 sprints. 400 runners and higher might need more traditional intervals but they are then working sprint endurance. My sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, 110 hurdlers, throwers and football players rarely do intervals. They do up to 10 sprints until they have dropped too much time, 2-3 times a week and go home. (weights are always 1st) The other days are skill event work. Throwers throw every day. We aren't blazing fast but we clearly get much faster. It does take creativity to adapt it to FB practices. During the season we do need some speed endurance. Off season-pure speed work.
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Post by Victor on Jan 5, 2020 18:45:19 GMT -6
I've adapted Barry Ross' sprint training philosophy to football to a large degree. I also coach track so we really use even more of his philosophy. Unfortunately as 1 poster said, it looks like we aren't doing too much work. In short, I time their sprints (20's -80's-1 distance each day) and each kid goes until his time drops too much. Not below @ 3%. BUT they rest 5 minutes between each sprint and we rarely get to 10 sprints. 400 runners and higher might need more traditional intervals but they are then working sprint endurance. My sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, 110 hurdlers, throwers and football players rarely do intervals. They do up to 10 sprints until they have dropped too much time, 2-3 times a week and go home. (weights are always 1st) The other days are skill event work. Throwers throw every day. We aren't blazing fast but we clearly get much faster. It does take creativity to adapt it to FB practices. During the season we do need some speed endurance. Off season-pure speed work. Hey coach, do u mind if you share a weekly sample of what you just said, please? I know you explained but it would easier to understand. Thanks in advance |
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Post by morris on Jan 6, 2020 5:59:37 GMT -6
I've adapted Barry Ross' sprint training philosophy to football to a large degree. I also coach track so we really use even more of his philosophy. Unfortunately as 1 poster said, it looks like we aren't doing too much work. In short, I time their sprints (20's -80's-1 distance each day) and each kid goes until his time drops too much. Not below @ 3%. BUT they rest 5 minutes between each sprint and we rarely get to 10 sprints. 400 runners and higher might need more traditional intervals but they are then working sprint endurance. My sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, 110 hurdlers, throwers and football players rarely do intervals. They do up to 10 sprints until they have dropped too much time, 2-3 times a week and go home. (weights are always 1st) The other days are skill event work. Throwers throw every day. We aren't blazing fast but we clearly get much faster. It does take creativity to adapt it to FB practices. During the season we do need some speed endurance. Off season-pure speed work. Why do endurance for football players during the off-season? I think this is an area where coaches kind of do it by accident. Using circuits outside of the general lifts. Battle ropes and other exercises. The players can build endurance in that way. Tempo runs are another way to not run them to death and build endurance. I am nowhere near an expert on any of this. This is more me throwing things out there to see if I understand the research I’ve done correctly. |
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 6, 2020 12:35:09 GMT -6
A weekly sample of a football practice or a track one? Our off season FB workouts resemble track practices somewhat. Or at least the more pure principles of Ross. I don't mind either way. I'm always tweaking stuff, though.
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 6, 2020 15:16:25 GMT -6
Coach,
I have a google doc. I can send of a sprint oriented FB practice if you give me your e-mail. I wish I could take credit for it but I use it as a template.
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Post by mariner42 on Jan 7, 2020 7:22:30 GMT -6
I've adapted Barry Ross' sprint training philosophy to football to a large degree. I also coach track so we really use even more of his philosophy. Unfortunately as 1 poster said, it looks like we aren't doing too much work. In short, I time their sprints (20's -80's-1 distance each day) and each kid goes until his time drops too much. Not below @ 3%. BUT they rest 5 minutes between each sprint and we rarely get to 10 sprints. 400 runners and higher might need more traditional intervals but they are then working sprint endurance. My sprinters, jumpers, vaulters, 110 hurdlers, throwers and football players rarely do intervals. They do up to 10 sprints until they have dropped too much time, 2-3 times a week and go home. (weights are always 1st) The other days are skill event work. Throwers throw every day. We aren't blazing fast but we clearly get much faster. It does take creativity to adapt it to FB practices. During the season we do need some speed endurance. Off season-pure speed work. What kind of numbers are you working with for these workouts? Do you use a Freelap or some other timing system? |
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 7, 2020 7:47:45 GMT -6
Not that techy. Just my stopwatch. Not exact but close enough.
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Post by mariner42 on Jan 7, 2020 7:51:17 GMT -6
Not that techy. Just my stopwatch. Not exact but close enough. How many kids? Our track team is massive for the area, I'll recruit 110+ and we'll routinely have 40+ sprinters/hurdlers. I really like what you're talking about, I've read Ross' book and think it's super underrated, I'm just curious what the logistics are like. |
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Post by Victor on Jan 7, 2020 10:27:55 GMT -6
Coach, I have a google doc. I can send of a sprint oriented FB practice if you give me your e-mail. I wish I could take credit for it but I use it as a template. victor.rar@hotmail.com |
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 7, 2020 16:19:33 GMT -6
We have a small school. Maybe 24 boys on the track team most years.
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hwkfn1
Junior Member
Posts: 260
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Post by hwkfn1 on Jan 7, 2020 19:53:59 GMT -6
Do any of you guys do this during preseason? For example, have a hard practice week 1 and then have a much lighter practice the next day? I'm curious as to how that works.
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 8, 2020 13:39:22 GMT -6
We do to a degree but for pre-season we accept that our players will be a bit overtrained during that time to get somewhat more speed endurance for the season. If we didn't speed train off season we certainly won't make speed gains in those 2-3 weeks.
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Post by morris on Jan 10, 2020 5:27:53 GMT -6
We do to a degree but for pre-season we accept that our players will be a bit overtrained during that time to get somewhat more speed endurance for the season. If we didn't speed train off season we certainly won't make speed gains in those 2-3 weeks. So you don’t speed train during the season? This year we are starting to slowly build endurance and speed during the out of season work. The current plan is just to continue to build on that as we come back in July. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2020 6:09:57 GMT -6
One thing I will note is Camp Point was equally as successful prior to the track football stuff. Did not know that. All the TFC marketing associated with their program makes it seem as if they never had success before. Thanks. |
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 10, 2020 7:03:19 GMT -6
Here are their records over the course of Dixon's career there copy and pasted from our state association's website.
2011-12 2A Q 10 1 Brad Dixon
2012-13 2A Q 12 1 Brad Dixon
2013-14 1A Q 11 1 Brad Dixon
2014-15 1A Q 11 2 Brad Dixon
2015-16 1A Q 5 5 Brad Dixon
2016-17 1A Q 7 3 Brad Dixon
2017-18 1A Q 8 3 Brad Dixon
2018-19 1A Q 2 12 2 Brad Dixon
2019-20 1A Q 9 2 Brad Dixon
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Post by CS on Jan 10, 2020 7:22:12 GMT -6
Here are their records over the course of Dixon's career there copy and pasted from our state association's website. 2011-12 2A Q 10 1 Brad Dixon 2012-13 2A Q 12 1 Brad Dixon 2013-14 1A Q 11 1 Brad Dixon 2014-15 1A Q 11 2 Brad Dixon 2015-16 1A Q 5 5 Brad Dixon 2016-17 1A Q 7 3 Brad Dixon 2017-18 1A Q 8 3 Brad Dixon 2018-19 1A Q 2 12 2 Brad Dixon 2019-20 1A Q 9 2 Brad Dixon I don't know when he started the cat training but a good point to make is that the line is relatively flat. So he may not be more successful but he isn't having less success doing it the way he is now. So a good argument to make is that he can still be successful and he doesn't have to grind everyone into the dirt. I'm just going to go on record and say that none of anything that I have read from either of them is revolutionary. Minimum effective dose is just a more eloquent way of saying,"get in, get done, get the fuk out." |
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 10, 2020 8:20:22 GMT -6
We use the speed based practice template during the season. Just during the 2-3 week pre-season we don't.
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Post by larrymoe on Jan 10, 2020 8:44:06 GMT -6
Here are their records over the course of Dixon's career there copy and pasted from our state association's website. 2011-12 2A Q 10 1 Brad Dixon 2012-13 2A Q 12 1 Brad Dixon 2013-14 1A Q 11 1 Brad Dixon 2014-15 1A Q 11 2 Brad Dixon 2015-16 1A Q 5 5 Brad Dixon 2016-17 1A Q 7 3 Brad Dixon 2017-18 1A Q 8 3 Brad Dixon 2018-19 1A Q 2 12 2 Brad Dixon 2019-20 1A Q 9 2 Brad Dixon I don't know when he started the cat training but a good point to make is that the line is relatively flat. So he may not be more successful but he isn't having less success doing it the way he is now. So a good argument to make is that he can still be successful and he doesn't have to grind everyone into the dirt. I'm just going to go on record and say that none of anything that I have read from either of them is revolutionary. Minimum effective dose is just a more eloquent way of saying,"get in, get done, get the fuk out." I was surprised to see that they still practice more with this "minimum effective dose" stuff than we ever did. |
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Post by veerfan on Jan 10, 2020 8:58:57 GMT -6
Here are their records over the course of Dixon's career there copy and pasted from our state association's website. 2011-12 2A Q 10 1 Brad Dixon 2012-13 2A Q 12 1 Brad Dixon 2013-14 1A Q 11 1 Brad Dixon 2014-15 1A Q 11 2 Brad Dixon 2015-16 1A Q 5 5 Brad Dixon 2016-17 1A Q 7 3 Brad Dixon 2017-18 1A Q 8 3 Brad Dixon 2018-19 1A Q 2 12 2 Brad Dixon 2019-20 1A Q 9 2 Brad Dixon I don't know when he started the cat training but a good point to make is that the line is relatively flat. So he may not be more successful but he isn't having less success doing it the way he is now. So a good argument to make is that he can still be successful and he doesn't have to grind everyone into the dirt. I'm just going to go on record and say that none of anything that I have read from either of them is revolutionary. Minimum effective dose is just a more eloquent way of saying,"get in, get done, get the fuk out." This. His big push is to also not grind down his coaching staff. You are correct in saying that none of this is revolutionary, but the fact remains that there are schools out there still grinding out 3 hour practices. Their staffs are grinding as well. Hell, we used to come in at 7am on Sundays and not leave until around 3 or 4pm (not unusual for a lot of places). We had to enter data, come up with a plan, then defensively start drawing the play cards up. They communicate as a staff on a Google Docs or Sheets. I think they all stay home and do all of their work that way? Keep the coaches, and wives, happy. Keep the kids HEALTHY. That's the goal. And, get faster and stronger in season. As far as practices go, we are an up-tempo offense. Our offensive coaches script out what they need to see, and if it goes well, they will end the segments early and move on. Defensively, we switched from playcards for the kids to GoRout. The scout team wears phone-like devices around their waist that we send the plays to and they don't have to huddle up. Saves a bunch of time and we get a lot done in a shorter amount of time. |
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hwkfn1
Junior Member
Posts: 260
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Post by hwkfn1 on Jan 10, 2020 9:14:51 GMT -6
Does anyone have any good forms for Google docs that your staff uses to work at home? With my son's activities I can't meet with my staff every weekend. I would love to have a good way we can all "meet" online!
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Post by mrjvi on Jan 10, 2020 12:02:39 GMT -6
Just a guess but staffs that allow coaches to have most of the weekends off to plan at there own schedule tend to stay together coaching longer. I guess it's a "DUH" but I've had very little turnover of coaches-not constantly re-teaching new guys all the time.
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Post by tatertide03 on Jan 11, 2020 18:14:22 GMT -6
Coach, I have a google doc. I can send of a sprint oriented FB practice if you give me your e-mail. I wish I could take credit for it but I use it as a template. Coach i'd be interested in looking at that. jdtaylor1103@gmail.com Thanks |
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