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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 14:32:34 GMT -6
In watching the Penn State vs Ohio State game, it seems OSU's superstar DE affected the play if not got caused or got credit for a sack each time he was single blocked. So obviously the natural question here is "why are you doing something that will result in him being one on one?"
We know as coaches we do stupid stuff all the time, I was just curious to hear some of the stories and some of the reasons why?
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 23, 2019 16:45:12 GMT -6
Or when it’s 4th and inches someone gets in the gun snaps it back 4 yards and hands it to a Rb that 7yds to run IZ.
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Post by bigmoot on Nov 23, 2019 16:53:18 GMT -6
Or when it’s 4th and inches someone gets in the gun snaps it back 4 yards and hands it to a Rb that 7yds to run IZ. Watching the same game?
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 16:53:34 GMT -6
Or when it’s 4th and inches someone gets in the gun snaps it back 4 yards and hands it to a Rb that 7yds to run IZ. I understand what you are saying, but I would say that is a bit different. Now, if you tell me that it happened several times in the game, and each time it was stuffed by the opponent for a negative play, then yes. Same question. For example once when I was a DB coach after a week of preparation and scouting 3 films I had convinced the DC that we could not cover a certain receiver 1 on 1. Given that he was the opponents primary weapon, we game planned to eliminate him as best we could by dbl covering him at all times. For whatever reason DC gets ancy and decides he needs to switch it up, calls for a different coverage, WR gets one and one on a 3rd and 11 and the opponents band gets to play the fight song (fortunately, play called back ). Unlike what I saw today, DC learned from mistake and we did not do that again all game.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 23, 2019 16:57:29 GMT -6
Or when it’s 4th and inches someone gets in the gun snaps it back 4 yards and hands it to a Rb that 7yds to run IZ. "It's who they are"- adjusts visor and looks at giant play card. Worse than that are the ones who shotgun snap to take a knee.
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 23, 2019 17:28:44 GMT -6
I’m bitter and stirring the pot, you can dig thru my posts on this site that I know and love but after 11 years I’m not the same guy I was then. I find myself posting and reading this section more and more because when you become the head man it’s more about the stuff in this Section than X’s and O’s but I’m floored as to why “coaches” are above teaching a guy to take a snap under center and run something quick hitting to gain yards.
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Post by CS on Nov 23, 2019 17:37:06 GMT -6
I’m bitter and stirring the pot, you can dig thru my posts on this site that I know and love but after 11 years I’m not the same guy I was then. I find myself posting and reading this section more and more because when you become the head man it’s more about the stuff in this Section than X’s and O’s but I’m floored as to why “coaches” are above teaching a guy to take a snap under center and run something quick hitting to gain yards. Because it’s not sexy
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 17:58:53 GMT -6
I wish I could rename this thread, it isn't generating the type of the discussion I was hoping for. I wasn't looking for things that coaches feel are "stupid" but rather trying to hear stories of things that coaches did that clearly were not working, and yet they continued to do them and wondering the reason why they did so.
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Post by coachdubyah on Nov 23, 2019 18:02:54 GMT -6
I wish I could rename this thread, it isn't generating the type of the discussion I was hoping for. I wasn't looking for things that coaches feel are "stupid" but rather trying to hear stories of things that coaches did that clearly were not working, and yet they continued to do them and wondering the reason why they did so. Well...what I alluded to kinda keeps happening. Lol I have a few more I’ll chime in later. It’s a good topic.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 18:08:02 GMT -6
I wish I could rename this thread, it isn't generating the type of the discussion I was hoping for. I wasn't looking for things that coaches feel are "stupid" but rather trying to hear stories of things that coaches did that clearly were not working, and yet they continued to do them and wondering the reason why they did so. Well...what I alluded to kinda keeps happening. Lol I have a few more I’ll chime in later. It’s a good topic. As I said, if it were something that was happening repeatedly in the game (as in, we keep getting stuffed on IZ) that is a different conversation than "I think that is a stupid philosophical position to take " Both are valid criticisms. Just different.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 23, 2019 18:16:00 GMT -6
In watching the Penn State vs Ohio State game, it seems OSU's superstar DE affected the play if not got caused or got credit for a sack each time he was single blocked. So obviously the natural question here is "why are you doing something that will result in him being one on one?" We know as coaches we do stupid stuff all the time, I was just curious to hear some of the stories and some of the reasons why? We play BEAR/0 against everything. FS at 10 and is a run support first guy. This year we have a DI outside linebacker. In retrospect we would have won more games with him at FS. We see so much 10/11 our DI got blocked by formation. Every other week the staff goes round and round about moving him but we end up keeping him at OLB. In my gut I know that we should have moved him and as the HC I should have overrode the defensive staff. Why did the defensive staff keep doing the stupid thing? They were in the room. They didn't have the 10,000 foot view or the ability to see the situation better. Why did I let it happen? IDK. It'll haunt me.
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Post by Victor on Nov 23, 2019 18:31:51 GMT -6
In watching the Penn State vs Ohio State game, it seems OSU's superstar DE affected the play if not got caused or got credit for a sack each time he was single blocked. So obviously the natural question here is "why are you doing something that will result in him being one on one?" We know as coaches we do stupid stuff all the time, I was just curious to hear some of the stories and some of the reasons why? We play BEAR/0 against everything. FS at 10 and is a run support first guy. This year we have a DI outside linebacker. In retrospect we would have won more games with him at FS. We see so much 10/11 our DI got blocked by formation. Every other week the staff goes round and round about moving him but we end up keeping him at OLB. In my gut I know that we should have moved him and as the HC I should have overrode the defensive staff. Why did the defensive staff keep doing the stupid thing? They were in the room. They didn't have the 10,000 foot view or the ability to see the situation better. Why did I let it happen? IDK. It'll haunt me. It happens, coach. Just call it "Player's last name's theorem". Next time this happens just evoke this to explain you are doing the move. I am a person has ghosts in the past as well and labeling this way help me to avoid repeat the same mistakes at same time to let it go without to think about it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 18:39:30 GMT -6
In watching the Penn State vs Ohio State game, it seems OSU's superstar DE affected the play if not got caused or got credit for a sack each time he was single blocked. So obviously the natural question here is "why are you doing something that will result in him being one on one?" We know as coaches we do stupid stuff all the time, I was just curious to hear some of the stories and some of the reasons why? We play BEAR/0 against everything. FS at 10 and is a run support first guy. This year we have a DI outside linebacker. In retrospect we would have won more games with him at FS. We see so much 10/11 our DI got blocked by formation. Every other week the staff goes round and round about moving him but we end up keeping him at OLB. In my gut I know that we should have moved him and as the HC I should have overrode the defensive staff. Why did the defensive staff keep doing the stupid thing? They were in the room. They didn't have the 10,000 foot view or the ability to see the situation better. Why did I let it happen? IDK. It'll haunt me. Do you guys do stats or analyze production? Something where you could say "damn, Johnny isn't really having much of an impact as I thought he should based on his abilities. I absolutely understand about being "in the room". I believe my biggest weakness as a coach was being caught up in game with trying to analyze tendencies via data that I would lose track of the "duh...just do this" situations.
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Post by carookie on Nov 23, 2019 19:05:43 GMT -6
Sometimes we continually do something that doesnt work because ‘plan-b’ is far worse. Example we are only getting 1 yard a carry running to the left, but if we ran to the right we’d lose yards and probably get someone hurt.
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Post by coachscdub on Nov 23, 2019 19:08:43 GMT -6
Or when it’s 4th and inches someone gets in the gun snaps it back 4 yards and hands it to a Rb that 7yds to run IZ. well i think the maths off on that a little bit, either that or that team is really bad. Also some teams (like mine this past year) dont do any UC snaps.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 19:14:13 GMT -6
Sometimes we continually do something that doesnt work because ‘plan-b’ is far worse. Example we are only getting 1 yard a carry running to the left, but if we ran to the right we’d lose yards and probably get someone hurt. Yes I get that. I have said here often that football is not a binary "either/or" sport meaning for example that if you ran the ball and it was not successful, there is no indication that passing would have automatically been successful. I guess in the case that caused me to post this though, you are a top 10 team-- surely you have something you feel could be successful while not leaving your OT exposed to someone he has demonstrated he can't block 1 on 1 the previous 3rd and long situations. Definitely think Penn State is going to be saying "we should have...." a lot on Sunday morning.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 23, 2019 19:19:54 GMT -6
We play BEAR/0 against everything. FS at 10 and is a run support first guy. This year we have a DI outside linebacker. In retrospect we would have won more games with him at FS. We see so much 10/11 our DI got blocked by formation. Every other week the staff goes round and round about moving him but we end up keeping him at OLB. In my gut I know that we should have moved him and as the HC I should have overrode the defensive staff. Why did the defensive staff keep doing the stupid thing? They were in the room. They didn't have the 10,000 foot view or the ability to see the situation better. Why did I let it happen? IDK. It'll haunt me. Do you guys do stats or analyze production? Something where you could say "damn, Johnny isn't really having much of an impact as I thought he should based on his abilities. I absolutely understand about being "in the room". I believe my biggest weakness as a coach was being caught up in game with trying to analyze tendencies via data that I would lose track of the "duh...just do this" situations. Yes. We track tackles, tackle quality, eff, etc. Since we are always in 0 we track PBU, Targets/Catches and yards per catch for each DB. And that was the problem with us. The FS wasn't bad. People ran away from the DI. We would have just been better as a whole unit if they were inverted.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 23, 2019 20:12:45 GMT -6
Do you guys do stats or analyze production? Something where you could say "damn, Johnny isn't really having much of an impact as I thought he should based on his abilities. I absolutely understand about being "in the room". I believe my biggest weakness as a coach was being caught up in game with trying to analyze tendencies via data that I would lose track of the "duh...just do this" situations. Yes. We track tackles, tackle quality, eff, etc. Since we are always in 0 we track PBU, Targets/Catches and yards per catch for each DB. And that was the problem with us. The FS wasn't bad. People ran away from the DI. We would have just been better as a whole unit if they were inverted. Did that show up in the production tracking?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 23, 2019 20:25:09 GMT -6
How many trust kids that the staff knows they shouldnt trust? Always bites in the butt.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 24, 2019 9:28:01 GMT -6
Yes. We track tackles, tackle quality, eff, etc. Since we are always in 0 we track PBU, Targets/Catches and yards per catch for each DB. And that was the problem with us. The FS wasn't bad. People ran away from the DI. We would have just been better as a whole unit if they were inverted. Did that show up in the production tracking? Sort of. Stats are deceptive. Our scheme tends to skew the stat line and you have to compare people at that position and not across the defense. Hard to compare the stats of a FS and a SS/OLB when you play 0 every down. We have always, always, always said the FS had to be the best guy. The discussion in the D room was "well the DI guy isn't a FS, Doesn't have that body, He's not gunna play FS at the next level, etc, etc... But guess what? He was our best guy. We violated one of our core beliefs regarding defense. That's a stupid thing.
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Post by mariner42 on Nov 24, 2019 9:43:50 GMT -6
I wish I could rename this thread, it isn't generating the type of the discussion I was hoping for. I wasn't looking for things that coaches feel are "stupid" but rather trying to hear stories of things that coaches did that clearly were not working, and yet they continued to do them and wondering the reason why they did so. I'll share an example of something similar: I stopped calling buck sweep in our biggest game of the year. It was our best play to our best player on offense, but I kept worrying because we struggled to block their DE with our WB. I kept envisioning us getting blown up on the play, even though it never happened. I was just paranoid of the mismatch and stopped running it. They took away our best player without ever taking away our best player. 95% of the time when I do something like this it's either because I'm foolishly paranoid or dramatically over thinking something.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2019 9:56:49 GMT -6
Did that show up in the production tracking? Sort of. Stats are deceptive. Our scheme tends to skew the stat line and you have to compare people at that position and not across the defense. Hard to compare the stats of a FS and a SS/OLB when you play 0 every down. We have always, always, always said the FS had to be the best guy. The discussion in the D room was "well the DI guy isn't a FS, Doesn't have that body, He's not gunna play FS at the next level, etc, etc... But guess what? He was our best guy. We violated one of our core beliefs regarding defense. That's a stupid thing. When I was asking about the production tracking, I wasn't really trying to compare the players, but rather did that highlight the fact that your best player wasn't producing what you expected. Essentially, were there numbers supporting your gut feeling that you were "wasting" your best player a bit. Just to help you feel a bit better though, there is always the chance that the player wouldn't have been as good as a FS. I have seen several instances where a player can play on the outside, but not the middle. The perspective is different, and having action happening on both sides can slow a player down. Thanks for the example.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 24, 2019 10:03:39 GMT -6
I wish I could rename this thread, it isn't generating the type of the discussion I was hoping for. I wasn't looking for things that coaches feel are "stupid" but rather trying to hear stories of things that coaches did that clearly were not working, and yet they continued to do them and wondering the reason why they did so. I'll share an example of something similar: I stopped calling buck sweep in our biggest game of the year. It was our best play to our best player on offense, but I kept worrying because we struggled to block their DE with our WB. I kept envisioning us getting blown up on the play, even though it never happened. I was just paranoid of the mismatch and stopped running it. They took away our best player without ever taking away our best player. 95% of the time when I do something like this it's either because I'm foolishly paranoid or dramatically over thinking something. Interesting, that seems to be the exact opposite of what I saw in the Penn State and OSU game. Penn State kept getting blown up trying to single block Chase Young in passing situations and in clutch situations, seemingly thought "maybe this time the outcome will be different". It seems you were having success, yet had the same thought process.
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Post by bigmoot on Nov 24, 2019 10:15:21 GMT -6
Sometimes we continually do something that doesnt work because ‘plan-b’ is far worse. Example we are only getting 1 yard a carry running to the left, but if we ran to the right we’d lose yards and probably get someone hurt. I caught alot of flak this year for not throwing the ball. " always running the same old plays." What the fans dont see is that we COULD NOT THROW OR CATCH. It was a waste of time. I wish they could have witness one segment of nk practice where we went 3 for 20 against AIR...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 24, 2019 10:24:27 GMT -6
Sometimes we continually do something that doesnt work because ‘plan-b’ is far worse. Example we are only getting 1 yard a carry running to the left, but if we ran to the right we’d lose yards and probably get someone hurt. I caught alot of flak this year for not throwing the ball. " always running the same old plays." What the fans dont see is that we COULD NOT THROW OR CATCH. It was a waste of time. I wish they could have witness one segment of nk practice where we went 3 for 20 against AIR... I hate language of "..running the same old plays.." As though that is a terrible thing. Coach keep running those plays!!!
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Post by Coach.A on Nov 24, 2019 10:37:01 GMT -6
Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but we will often run our base plays at unfavorable defensive looks or run plays where we are outnumbered. We do this to set up complimentary plays, counters, play-actions or screens.
Some outsiders see us doing this and lose their minds, but they aren't seeing the big picture. I should note, we are very much a series based offense.
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Post by fballcoachg on Nov 26, 2019 16:31:27 GMT -6
I’m bitter and stirring the pot, you can dig thru my posts on this site that I know and love but after 11 years I’m not the same guy I was then. I find myself posting and reading this section more and more because when you become the head man it’s more about the stuff in this Section than X’s and O’s but I’m floored as to why “coaches” are above teaching a guy to take a snap under center and run something quick hitting to gain yards. Not to overly derail this but genuinely curious...are you talking wedge sneak or trap? Asking because if you are in I and giving it to the back there isn’t much difference in distance to the line. just for the record we run both under and gun, I also think some of our under plays hit the same time or slower than our gun plays and many times the D doesn’t have to respect the qb as much in under. We have been in both sets in short yardage w similar results.
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Post by fballcoachg on Nov 26, 2019 16:34:00 GMT -6
In the past Ive Kept running our base because “it’s what we do and will bust soon” as well as stayed away from our base because I saw a ghost, thought it would be bad, or there was one bad result that when we went back and watched was more fluke than fact
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Post by tigerpride on Nov 27, 2019 8:13:10 GMT -6
How many trust kids that the staff knows they shouldnt trust? Always bites in the butt. Yes.... when I got my first HC job, I found myself chasing all the wrong kids and begging them to play. Meanwhile, the rest of the team who showed up and were eager to work..... well they weren't getting the same attention. A wise coach told me "you can only coach the kids that are there and want to be coached". I'm getting better at this but still find myself chasing these kids around. When they do play, they miss practice, cause problems, get that personal foul at the most critical time, are ineligible, get caught with alcohol/vape, and end up quitting or something. We went 1-10 a few years back and I kept putting "that kid" on the field. We could have easily went 1-10 without him lol....
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Post by silkyice on Nov 27, 2019 8:24:14 GMT -6
Worse than that are the ones who shotgun snap to take a knee. Taking a knee from the shotgun is better play than taking on from under center unless you backed up inside the 5. And if you are a shotgun team, taking a knee under center is stupid since you have been in the gun all game. Now, you should still practice it for that one situation, but why change what you do? When we were a gun team, we just took a knee out of double tight. Had backs on both sides of qb and had a rb behind the qb 5 yards. I would much rather there be a bad snap in the gun in that situation 5 yards away from the defenses than under center 1 foot away from the defense.
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