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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 9, 2019 11:42:09 GMT -6
Wondering if some of the things that have been discussed on this message board (social media impact, recruiting, various examples of "change in kids" threads etc.) are the underlying reason why the Deion Sanders as HC of FSU is getting serious traction by media, fans etc. What does that say about what fans, and the talking heads (who supposedly know more) actually think about the roles and responsibilities of Power 5 head football coach? I would ask if that filters down to the HS level, but I think we already have plenty of anecdotal evidence that the job of HS football coach is not really considered tough in many cases.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2019 11:58:51 GMT -6
In my experience, if a dude with a decent NFL career walks into a high school with an opening for a HFC and says he wants the job, he's probably going to get it, even with limited or zero coaching experience. There was a case in my neck of the woods where this happened a couple of years ago and the director gave him the job because she liked his notoriety-- then the guy used his social media clout to start a circus and was eventually suspended and then fired only 7 games into his first year.
The Deon Sanders thing reminds me of all the Tennessee fans who've annually called for Peyton Manning to be named the HC since he retired from the NFL, though Manning apparently has zero interest in coaching. I don't think the demand for Deon to be named HC at FSU is really so much about a modern change in culture as it is a fan's dream--they think "he was a great player and we still love him, so obviously he'll be a great coach and make everyone as good as he was."
You see this all the time in HS and college ball, where fans think that a great former player should become the head coach and lead them back to the promised land. It happens pretty regularly in other sports, especially basketball.
It's a fun story for the media to cover because it's unusual and it gains traction in social media because of the viral factor: people know who Deon is and it's a novelty, so they share it and talk about it, too. If FSU actually gives the job to him, that will be proof that Jimbo Fisher was smart to jump ship when he did.
To the majority of fans, being a HC is about giving Ray Lewis speeches, recruiting, and hiring a staff. I could see people thinking that Deon Sanders would be good in that type of role as "the CEO coach" because that's essentially what Bobby Bowden did for years with success, even though I think they're wrong to believe that Sanders has shown any reason to think he could pull off the administrative and managerial side of things.
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Post by fantom on Nov 9, 2019 13:10:05 GMT -6
Wondering if some of the things that have been discussed on this message board (social media impact, recruiting, various examples of "change in kids" threads etc.) are the underlying reason why the Deion Sanders as HC of FSU is getting serious traction by media, fans etc. What does that say about what fans, and the talking heads (who supposedly know more) actually think about the roles and responsibilities of Power 5 head football coach? I would ask if that filters down to the HS level, but I think we already have plenty of anecdotal evidence that the job of HS football coach is not really considered tough in many cases. Nothing new about that. Over 30 years ago a school in the city hired a HC based mostly on the fact that he'd been in the NFL. His teams were horrible mostly due to the fact that he couldn't get and keep kids. Seems that the kids weren't into his habit, learned when he'd tried out for Lombardi's Packers, of starting practice with 100 up-downs.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 9, 2019 13:43:45 GMT -6
If FSU actually gives the job to him, that will be proof that Jimbo Fisher was smart to jump ship when he did. The whole is post is good and this sentence is almost correct. It will be “more” proof. I think the last two years have already proved it. Ha True. But I would also agree that recruiting and hiring a staff might be 1 and 2 or at least close to most important things a college HC does.
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Post by carookie on Nov 9, 2019 13:55:17 GMT -6
Because most people assume that if you made it to the NFL you must have a great amount of NFL knowledge that you can pass on; and if you were a HOFer you must have HOF knowledge.
A few years back I was on a HS staff that included 5 former NFLers, 2 former D1s, and me (former nothing). I was at a wedding and talking to some family members about our team and they were taken aback by how unfair it must be and that, "they'll be able to teach them all kinds of secrets to help them win."
I chuckled to myself, as it was not quite like that. Half of them were good coaches, same as most of us here, the other half confused the hell out of the kids with their complex schemes, taught them nothing in indi time other than how to listen to speeches, and had little to no communication skills. I have come to the conclusion that most good HS coaches could be position coaches at any level. The only real difference between most coaches at big time colleges and the NFL (compared to good HS coaches) is they had the connections to get an opportunity, or were willing to coach for no-pay some point along the way, and are willing to make the requisite sacrifices in regards to their family.
That being written, with so many in the public buying into the 'he was a hofer so he must be a great coach' I bet he's able to land some recruits. And to come full circle, that is a benefit o the HS level when hiring NFL guys- they often attract a bunch of local talent, and invariably bring in talent when their own kids are old enough.
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Post by wingtol on Nov 9, 2019 16:33:12 GMT -6
I keep hearing how if he surrounds himself with a top level staff they will be fine....isn't that what Taggert did this year with his coordinators? Isn't that what ever coach tries to do?? Do people realize that you're talking about 16+ hour days if not more as a HC at a place like that just grinding away at it all? People are clueless.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 9, 2019 17:10:31 GMT -6
Wondering if some of the things that have been discussed on this message board (social media impact, recruiting, various examples of "change in kids" threads etc.) are the underlying reason why the Deion Sanders as HC of FSU is getting serious traction by media, fans etc. What does that say about what fans, and the talking heads (who supposedly know more) actually think about the roles and responsibilities of Power 5 head football coach? I would ask if that filters down to the HS level, but I think we already have plenty of anecdotal evidence that the job of HS football coach is not really considered tough in many cases. Nothing new about that. Over 30 years ago a school in the city hired a HC based mostly on the fact that he'd been in the NFL. His teams were horrible mostly due to the fact that he couldn't get and keep kids. Seems that the kids weren't into his habit, learned when he'd tried out for Lombardi's Packers, of starting practice with 100 up-downs. I realize it is fairly common for NFL guys to be glorified at the HS level. In this case though, we are talking about FSU, which will represent a monumental (but singular, at the moment) shift in the idea of the coaching ranks for FOOTBALL. The act of being promoted from Never coaching to Headcoach has become somewhat commonplace in the NBA (Jason Kidd, Vinny Del Negro, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, Kevin Mchale, Larry Bird a while back...) and a little in Baseball I believe (Aaron Boone with the Yankees) but football has always had a much different approach to the coaching ranks, and the movement up the ladder. If this comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2019 8:27:25 GMT -6
Nothing new about that. Over 30 years ago a school in the city hired a HC based mostly on the fact that he'd been in the NFL. His teams were horrible mostly due to the fact that he couldn't get and keep kids. Seems that the kids weren't into his habit, learned when he'd tried out for Lombardi's Packers, of starting practice with 100 up-downs. I realize it is fairly common for NFL guys to be glorified at the HS level. In this case though, we are talking about FSU, which will represent a monumental (but singular, at the moment) shift in the idea of the coaching ranks for FOOTBALL. The act of being promoted from Never coaching to Headcoach has become somewhat commonplace in the NBA (Jason Kidd, Vinny Del Negro, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, Kevin Mchale, Larry Bird a while back...) and a little in Baseball I believe (Aaron Boone with the Yankees) but football has always had a much different approach to the coaching ranks, and the movement up the ladder. If this comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects. I thought Deon actually had a couple of years of HS coaching experience from that failed charter school he started up in Texas a few years back. Not that it undermines your point at all, but I think he has at least shown some interest in coaching in the past. Football is the most technical and strategic of sports. I agree that if it comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects... but I also have my doubts that Sanders would be successful or stick around much longer than Taggart did. Even fi some high profile boosters are lining up behind him, I'm sure that plenty of others would be apoplectic if he were to actually get the job. As wingtol said... hiring a top notch staff is great, but the HC still has a ton of grinding to do behind the scenes and a lot of personalities to manage, which Sanders has shown zero history or inclination to do. The tone of the "Deon as next HC of FSU" conversation reminds me a lot of the "Grumors" that Tennessee fans were spreading during the last 3 head coach openings--basically they said that Jon Gruden wanted to coach at Tennessee because he has property nearby, once GA'ed at the school, and his wife went there. Pretty soon people were claiming they saw his plane landing at the airport, saw him at dinner in Knoxville with the Haslams and AD, etc. Gruden never denied any of this and feigned interest in the job even when it was clear he never really had much intention of taking it. I suspect that is where the Sanders rumors will wind up.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2019 8:59:40 GMT -6
I realize it is fairly common for NFL guys to be glorified at the HS level. In this case though, we are talking about FSU, which will represent a monumental (but singular, at the moment) shift in the idea of the coaching ranks for FOOTBALL. The act of being promoted from Never coaching to Headcoach has become somewhat commonplace in the NBA (Jason Kidd, Vinny Del Negro, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, Kevin Mchale, Larry Bird a while back...) and a little in Baseball I believe (Aaron Boone with the Yankees) but football has always had a much different approach to the coaching ranks, and the movement up the ladder. If this comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects. I thought Deon actually had a couple of years of HS coaching experience from that failed charter school he started up in Texas a few years back. Not that it undermines your point at all, but I think he has at least shown some interest in coaching in the past. Football is the most technical and strategic of sports. I agree that if it comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects... but I also have my doubts that Sanders would be successful or stick around much longer than Taggart did. Even fi some high profile boosters are lining up behind him, I'm sure that plenty of others would be apoplectic if he were to actually get the job. As wingtol said... hiring a top notch staff is great, but the HC still has a ton of grinding to do behind the scenes and a lot of personalities to manage, which Sanders has shown zero history or inclination to do. The tone of the "Deon as next HC of FSU" conversation reminds me a lot of the "Grumors" that Tennessee fans were spreading during the last 3 head coach openings--basically they said that Jon Gruden wanted to coach at Tennessee because he has property nearby, once GA'ed at the school, and his wife went there. Pretty soon people were claiming they saw his plane landing at the airport, saw him at dinner in Knoxville with the Haslams and AD, etc. Gruden never denied any of this and feigned interest in the job even when it was clear he never really had much intention of taking it. I suspect that is where the Sanders rumors will wind up. Listening to Rich Eisen and some other sports TV talking heads, he is currently the OC of his son's school in Texas and he is VERY interested in coaching. Based on their comments, it doesn't seem like he is taking this talk lightly at all. I think he is up for it an knows what it entails. My point is a bit different. I am not suggesting that it would be a disaster at all, just that it would definitely be different to have someone become a HC of a major power college without moving up the coaching ranks. Gruden was a bit different because he had coached at a level equivalent (if not higher) than Florida State.
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Post by 60zgo on Nov 10, 2019 10:59:59 GMT -6
Wondering if some of the things that have been discussed on this message board (social media impact, recruiting, various examples of "change in kids" threads etc.) are the underlying reason why the Deion Sanders as HC of FSU is getting serious traction by media, fans etc. What does that say about what fans, and the talking heads (who supposedly know more) actually think about the roles and responsibilities of Power 5 head football coach? I would ask if that filters down to the HS level, but I think we already have plenty of anecdotal evidence that the job of HS football coach is not really considered tough in many cases. I think it has been happening at the HS level for quite some time. I can think of a number of guys who have gotten HS jobs in La. because they played at LSU or had some affiliation with the Saints/NFL. One or two have panned out, most have not.
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Post by coachd5085 on Nov 10, 2019 11:25:41 GMT -6
Wondering if some of the things that have been discussed on this message board (social media impact, recruiting, various examples of "change in kids" threads etc.) are the underlying reason why the Deion Sanders as HC of FSU is getting serious traction by media, fans etc. What does that say about what fans, and the talking heads (who supposedly know more) actually think about the roles and responsibilities of Power 5 head football coach? I would ask if that filters down to the HS level, but I think we already have plenty of anecdotal evidence that the job of HS football coach is not really considered tough in many cases. I think it has been happening at the HS level for quite some time. I can think of a number of guys who have gotten HS jobs in La. because they played at LSU or had some affiliation with the Saints/NFL. One or two have panned out, most have not. Yes, but I would say FSU is worlds apart from getting a HS coaching gig.
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Post by carookie on Nov 10, 2019 13:20:52 GMT -6
I think it has been happening at the HS level for quite some time. I can think of a number of guys who have gotten HS jobs in La. because they played at LSU or had some affiliation with the Saints/NFL. One or two have panned out, most have not. Yes, but I would say FSU is worlds apart from getting a HS coaching gig. But the underlying premise of the stud athlete getting hired remains the same: 1) He was a great athlete so he will be able to impart the knowledge of how to be a great athlete on our players (ignoring that its mostly genetics) 2) His big name will attract big name athletes (although I don't know how many 17 yos care that much for Deion Sanders). Of course, we are assuming that they do hire him. The support seems to be coming from the masses right now, I don't know about the AD.
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Post by blb on Nov 10, 2019 13:58:33 GMT -6
Well he is a "Seminole man."
Being a great athlete-player does not equate to being a great or even good coach.
How many Super Bowl winning coaches were great players, in college much less NFL?
How about recent NC coaches or those highly ranked now?
Nick Saban for example played in college at Kent State, a long-time D-I bottom feeder. Was never even an all-MAC player.
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Post by silkyice on Nov 10, 2019 14:15:49 GMT -6
Nick Saban for example played in college at Kent State, a long-time D-I bottom feeder. Was never even an all-MAC player. Only because Kent State didn’t run Rip/Liz match.
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Post by blb on Nov 10, 2019 14:30:25 GMT -6
Nick Saban for example played in college at Kent State, a long-time D-I bottom feeder. Was never even an all-MAC player. Only because Kent State didn’t run Rip/Liz match.
That must be the reason.
Saban did play for-start his coaching career as GA for Don James, one of best-most underrated CFB coaches of all time.
Also played with a MLBer named Jack Lambert, some people might remember.
And KSU TE during that era was guy named Gary Pinkel.
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Post by wingtol on Nov 10, 2019 15:03:32 GMT -6
I realize it is fairly common for NFL guys to be glorified at the HS level. In this case though, we are talking about FSU, which will represent a monumental (but singular, at the moment) shift in the idea of the coaching ranks for FOOTBALL. The act of being promoted from Never coaching to Headcoach has become somewhat commonplace in the NBA (Jason Kidd, Vinny Del Negro, Doc Rivers, Mark Jackson, Kevin Mchale, Larry Bird a while back...) and a little in Baseball I believe (Aaron Boone with the Yankees) but football has always had a much different approach to the coaching ranks, and the movement up the ladder. If this comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects. I thought Deon actually had a couple of years of HS coaching experience from that failed charter school he started up in Texas a few years back. Not that it undermines your point at all, but I think he has at least shown some interest in coaching in the past. Football is the most technical and strategic of sports. I agree that if it comes to fruition, it could have some serious ripple effects... but I also have my doubts that Sanders would be successful or stick around much longer than Taggart did. Even fi some high profile boosters are lining up behind him, I'm sure that plenty of others would be apoplectic if he were to actually get the job. As wingtol said... hiring a top notch staff is great, but the HC still has a ton of grinding to do behind the scenes and a lot of personalities to manage, which Sanders has shown zero history or inclination to do. The tone of the "Deon as next HC of FSU" conversation reminds me a lot of the "Grumors" that Tennessee fans were spreading during the last 3 head coach openings--basically they said that Jon Gruden wanted to coach at Tennessee because he has property nearby, once GA'ed at the school, and his wife went there. Pretty soon people were claiming they saw his plane landing at the airport, saw him at dinner in Knoxville with the Haslams and AD, etc. Gruden never denied any of this and feigned interest in the job even when it was clear he never really had much intention of taking it. I suspect that is where the Sanders rumors will wind up. Cracks me up that 99% of people have no idea what these HC's have prepared for a college gig. You hear about guys walking in with like 1000 page binder with the schedule for spring ball, fall camp, and season already planned out. Install schedules mapped out. S/C programs with the guy they would bring in 20 names for a staff and break down of their duties. Recruiting strategy already outlined. Player development program for every day of the week. Complete offseason plan. Fundraising and on and on and on.... But Dieon just gonna walk in and be like "Hey I'm a HOFer! I can get guys to play here!" and then like I said throw in the actual coaching and all the other behind the scenes BS... It's like being a CEO of a multi-million dollar company, can't just pull guys off the street and expect them to succeed with no experience in the business world.
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Post by jg78 on Nov 11, 2019 7:34:54 GMT -6
If I were the AD at Tennessee, I would be willing to hire Peyton Manning with no coaching experience. No way I hire Deion at FSU. Manning was cerebral, driven, disciplined, and a great leader. Deion was just a physical freak.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 11, 2019 8:33:03 GMT -6
How many Super Bowl winning coaches were great players, in college much less NFL?
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Post by blb on Nov 11, 2019 9:26:32 GMT -6
larrymoe nice list but the qualifier was GREAT players (a la Deion since he is the topic of thread). From your list only Ditka is in College FB and NFL HOFs as a player. Of the others you named that played in NFL only Landry even made All-Pro (once).
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 11, 2019 9:36:12 GMT -6
I would argue that anyone that played in the NFL was a great college player, but oh well.
My point is, far more Super Bowl winning coaches were former NFL players won Super Bowls as HCs than those that "rose through the ranks".
You don't have to know crap about football to be a successful HC if you are a great leader, organizer, recruiter and figurehead. Unfortunately for Deion he only has the talking end IMO.
There are plenty of pretty successful HCs at all levels that probably couldn't "coach" their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are able to procure some really nice talent. Especially today. The game is evolving away from film room junkies HCs to figureheads IMO. One beat a top 4 team just this past weekend.
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Post by carookie on Nov 11, 2019 11:04:50 GMT -6
I would argue that anyone that played in the NFL was a great college player, but oh well. My point is, far more Super Bowl winning coaches were former NFL players won Super Bowls as HCs than those that "rose through the ranks". You don't have to know crap about football to be a successful HC if you are a great leader, organizer, recruiter and figurehead. Unfortunately for Deion he only has the talking end IMO. There are plenty of pretty successful HCs at all levels that probably couldn't "coach" their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are able to procure some really nice talent. Especially today. The game is evolving away from film room junkies HCs to figureheads IMO. One beat a top 4 team just this past weekend. I would think thats because they had the NFL connection from playing that gave them access to coach in the NFL. If both you & Lavar Arrington tried right now to get a job as a position coach in the NFL I'd think that only one of you could even land an interview.
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Post by fantom on Nov 11, 2019 14:55:11 GMT -6
I would argue that anyone that played in the NFL was a great college player, but oh well. My point is, far more Super Bowl winning coaches were former NFL players won Super Bowls as HCs than those that "rose through the ranks". You don't have to know crap about football to be a successful HC if you are a great leader, organizer, recruiter and figurehead. Unfortunately for Deion he only has the talking end IMO. There are plenty of pretty successful HCs at all levels that probably couldn't "coach" their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are able to procure some really nice talent. Especially today. The game is evolving away from film room junkies HCs to figureheads IMO. One beat a top 4 team just this past weekend. Fun fact: Only seven Super Bowl winning coaches have ever been on the roster of an NFL team.
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Post by blb on Nov 11, 2019 15:04:10 GMT -6
I would argue that anyone that played in the NFL was a great college player, but oh well. My point is, far more Super Bowl winning coaches were former NFL players won Super Bowls as HCs than those that "rose through the ranks". You don't have to know crap about football to be a successful HC if you are a great leader, organizer, recruiter and figurehead. Unfortunately for Deion he only has the talking end IMO. There are plenty of pretty successful HCs at all levels that probably couldn't "coach" their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are able to procure some really nice talent. Especially today. The game is evolving away from film room junkies HCs to figureheads IMO. One beat a top 4 team just this past weekend. Fun fact: Only seven Super Bowl winning coaches have ever been on the roster of an NFL team.
Perhaps no Super Bowl winning coach has "risen up the ranks" like the one who has won the most (Belichick).
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Post by fantom on Nov 11, 2019 15:08:28 GMT -6
Fun fact: Only seven Super Bowl winning coaches have ever been on the roster of an NFL team.
Perhaps no Super Bowl winning coach has "risen up the ranks" like the one who has one the most (Belichick).
And the guy who they named the trophy after started out coaching in high school.
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Post by blb on Nov 11, 2019 15:15:23 GMT -6
Perhaps no Super Bowl winning coach has "risen up the ranks" like the one who has one the most (Belichick).
And the guy who they named the trophy after started out coaching in high school.
Never played professional football, either.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 11, 2019 15:43:48 GMT -6
Fun fact: Only seven Super Bowl winning coaches have ever been on the roster of an NFL team.
Perhaps no Super Bowl winning coach has "risen up the ranks" like the one who has won the most (Belichick).
You mean the guy who got a job out of college on an NFL staff because of his dad? Idk that that's working your way through the ranks.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 11, 2019 15:44:43 GMT -6
I would argue that anyone that played in the NFL was a great college player, but oh well. My point is, far more Super Bowl winning coaches were former NFL players won Super Bowls as HCs than those that "rose through the ranks". You don't have to know crap about football to be a successful HC if you are a great leader, organizer, recruiter and figurehead. Unfortunately for Deion he only has the talking end IMO. There are plenty of pretty successful HCs at all levels that probably couldn't "coach" their way out of a wet paper bag, but they are able to procure some really nice talent. Especially today. The game is evolving away from film room junkies HCs to figureheads IMO. One beat a top 4 team just this past weekend. Fun fact: Only seven Super Bowl winning coaches have ever been on the roster of an NFL team. What 7? There's at least 9 off the list I posted.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 11, 2019 15:45:33 GMT -6
And the guy who they named the trophy after started out coaching in high school.
Never played professional football, either.
He was also a famed D1 player. And ya, 1950 is the same as today.
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Post by fantom on Nov 11, 2019 16:04:04 GMT -6
Fun fact: Only seven Super Bowl winning coaches have ever been on the roster of an NFL team. What 7? There's at least 9 off the list I posted. I was wrong about the 7. It was 8. Sean Payton played in one NFL game as a strike replacement. Some of the others (Madden, Parcells, for example) had tryouts but never made a regular season roster. I didn't count Reeves (or Bud Grant and maybe some others) because I only counted SB winning coaches.
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Post by larrymoe on Nov 11, 2019 16:05:43 GMT -6
What 7? There's at least 9 off the list I posted. I was wrong about the 7. It was 8. Sean Payton played in one NFL game as a strike replacement. Some of the others (Madden, Parcells, for example) had tryouts but never made a regular season roster. I didn't count Reeves (or Bud Grant and maybe some others) because I only counted SB winning coaches. These? John Madden Mike Ditka Tom Landry Tony Dungy Don Shula Bill Cowher Chuck Knoll Gary Kubiak
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